Ephesians 4:11-16

Do you believe God has anything to say to the church today?

that happened to be the majority view of the Church Fathers, when we see God [face to face].

He would say, lukewarm congregations/believers better get on fire before they get spewed out!

Wow exactly. I have something a bit more specific for the lukewarm congregations and individuals:

“Come back to your first love. I will hold you in my arms and give you true life. Don’t waste time, now is the day to return. Repent, repent, for all you have done!

Return to your first faith. I am searching for you and I will take you home. Don’t waste time, now is the time to return. I love you completely!

Return to your hope. I will save you in the afterlife and I will give you life. Return to my presence. I am waiting patiently.”

I prayed and ask God if He wanted to say anything to the lukewarm churches and individuals. The above is what I was told. Glory to God.

But that is not the context of 1 Cor 13. Face to Face is when we see God in our perfected state. We will no longer know in part. Until then we do. Paul wrote this. Paul said that he was not yet perfect but followed after that goal which he said was the resurrection from the dead. That is when we will be perfect according to Paul. The context of 1 Cor 13 Face to Face is when we see God not when the book of Revelation is completed.

Read this paper. It will settle the matter in your mind. If you insist on telling people 1 Cor 13 is referring to the bible being completed you will lose all credibility as one who is able to interpret scriptures. It's really has been proven to be that bad of an interpretation.

https://fdocuments.net/document/1-c...st-theological-seminary-a-history.html?page=1

Amen!

With the early church fathers.. I'd need to think about each one seperately in what they believed. If they are working for their salvation.. then it isn't going to give credence to what they say on the gifts of the Spirit. If they are a bishop over multiple congregations.. that's a twisting on scripture also. So if I looked at what they were teaching, it'd be a case by case thing.

The other part of it is there is a long line of christians that weren't ever connected with Catholicism or Orthodox churches going right right back to apostolic times.. and they don't get quoted in the famous church fathers barely as much, but were known for tenaciously holding on to a pure and sound faith.

They were persecuted and cut off with the knife, and most would not renounce Christ under pain of death. The problems that were developing with bishops gaining too much power, and the influence of pagan religions didn't affect these people, and with the Waldneses 'the men of the valleys' ..they hid themselves in valleys and hills, preserving a pure faith.

Finally, you have problems early on entering churches like in the church of Corinth, being a port city.. they were influenced by the pagan religion of the day, with all sorts coming in to Corinth. You've also got gnosticism influencing churches through the likes the Colossians church. So did these church fathers.. seperate themselves from paganism.. gnosticism.. Roman catholicism?

I'll have a bit of study of what these church fathers actually believed.

Can't say I've heard of that denomination but yes, religious beliefs typically depend on religious affiliation or denomination.

And yes, each denomination (at least I hope so at the least) has something good to add to the whole. Catholicism isn't a denomination, but I've observed several things in their practices that the christian churches could really use and that would be a real blessing to christian churches.

Why would apostles cease to be today as they were in the NT, and why would prophets cease to be today as they were in the NT?

So far, when I've asked or heard people trying to answer the above question(s), the summary of what people have communicated has mostly been, "Because I want it to be so." There are many things we want to be so that just aren't so.

We want it to be so that God doesn't allow evil to happen. We want it to be so that God didn't kick lucifer down to Earth where he can torment people instead of kicking him into Hell (or anywhere besides Earth) where he couldn't have any influence on Earth. We want it to be so that God would always save and deliver the innocent who suffer from their oppressors. We want it to be so that God would always deliver and heal those who are oppressed by satan or in need of healing. We want it to be so that God didn't suggest that satan go after Job but that satan did so of his own accord. We want it to be so that God has no 'partnership' dealings at all with satan and his angels regarding the affairs of Earth or that God didn't [sometimes] use satan to do His will . But none of these things is so.

Learning to distinguish between what is so (or not so) vs. what we want to believe is so (or not so) isn't only important but is a sign of maturity. Babies, toddlers, and little children live in a world of picking and choosing their reality. As we grow up, we learn to accept reality as it in fact is. That's a sign or effect of maturity. But when it comes to religion or christianity, we regress and start to believe things are the way we want them to be. If anyone has a good argument that one or more of the five ministries in Ephesians 4:11 are no longer relevant or legitimate for today, I have never heard a reasonable argument for it. Good is subjective; different people see different things as good (or acceptable). Reasonable is altogether different and is based far more on what is fitting, correct, or proper. People can argue that it is good to get rid of one or more of the Ephesians 4:11 ministries to the churches; but no one can argue that it is reasonable to get rid of those ministries.

The Bible is not always easy to interpret nor is it always easy to receive or agree with (eg. God ordering the killing of entire nations including babies and children). When this is the case, one of the things I do to 'make sense of things' is to look for the reason in them. The Bible reasons a lot as well. (In fact, people like Paul and Apollos were so good at reasoning through doctrines that the Jewish leaders considered to be good that the two of them were hated and sometimes targeted for murder.) But christians-- for many years-- have been redirected into thinking in religious terms rather than logical terms, therefore, we often can't make sense of biblical logic since we're focused solely on biblical doctrine. The Books of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and 1John are some good examples of straightforward reason in the Bible. For example, in 1John4:20, John reasons, "If someone (a believer) says, 'I love God,' and hates (doesn't love) his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?" This is undiluted reason, but because most modern christians don't think in logical and rational terms (but rather religious and emotional terms), most christians continue to say they love God while having little to no expressions of practical love for their own fellow christians.

Look at Ephesians 4:11-16 with your logic rather than through the veil of religious teachings. Not only does it make perfect sense that all five ministries remain in the churches till Jesus's return... but it also says it right there on the Pages. The five-fold ministries are exemplified and confirmed in Creation itself, in nature, in human beings, in the structure of things, of families, of groups, of civilizations. How is it that this is perfectly okay except when it comes to God? I never heard of anyone with all their body parts intact grow to reach an age where they cut off two of their thumb and forefinger and say, "I no longer need these"? So, if people don't do that with imperfect bodies, why would God do it who is perfect? There is a reason the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Paul (and surely Apollos) more than they did the Twelve apostles: the Twelve spoke as the ordinary Jewish men they were; but Paul and Apollos were 'learned', and the Jewish leaders could not gainsay or frustrate their reason-- ie. their logic or 'common sense'. Paul's message to the Athenians had the same effect; they were intelligent, but somehow he was more intelligent than they-- speaking to them with reason or logic that was greater than theirs. They only stopped listening to Paul when he began to speak about the supernatural, or 'the religous' which most people still don't understand but continue to traffic in. (Acts 17:16-33.) Time to start forcibly employing reason and logic when approaching the Bible. Use what you have as a human being, and leave the spiritual things to God to explain and reveal them.

Jesus can set aside men to serve in these capacities anytime He sees fit. He is not constrained by our close mindedness, or short sightedness.

In my opinion, as far as the present age is concerned, the gospel has been spread far and wide throughout the world, so there doesn't seem to be much call for apostolic services right now. I could be wrong, this is just an opinion.

I think it is more likely that He will be moving prophets near and far to warn groups and individuals in the church that they are not on track. He would also have evangelists wandering around, encouraging we Christians to cheer up and keep heading towards Jesus. I doubt that He is using pastors/elders at the moment, at least in the way He originally intended.

Couldn’t agree more. I believe you very clearly how to actually understand the Bible. You aren’t afraid of inconvenient or uncomfortable truths. These are just the facts and we should always factor them into our understanding. Definitely gives me a lot to think about and reflect on.

Sure enough, do what He has already said to us in scripture. God speaks to me daily through His scripture.
You know what I find terrible and Ironic. Churches where the preacher talks for an hour but only references the scripture and two or three verses at that, and this church expects God to say a new thing to them.
Another irony equally horrible is Christians who have been going to church for years and they dont know what is written. I mean they sire enough love God, but their church has taught them very little.

Pastors and preachers preach every Sunday certainly they (at least some of them) bring us a message from God. Sadly I think most of them are simply serving themself and devouring the sheep while they are at it.

Your opinions are getting in the way of your understanding. Man's thoughts always get in God's way. That's why we have so many 'smart' christians who started thousands of denominations that created or promoted division rather than unity.

2Cor. 10:3-5 mentions christians' thoughts and opinions and how they're more often than not in contention with and against God's truth to the extent that while believers aren't to war against the enemy but to stand in spite of his attacks (therefore "the full armor of God"- Eph. 6:11, 13), believers are to war against their own opinions and beliefs which, usually unbeknownst to them, are often hostile to God's truth (therefore "the weapons of our warfare"- 2Cor. 10:4).

Everyone, naturally, is born with an appendix... but what exactly is it for? Do we really need two eyes and ears? Do we need 32 teeth? Why not 12, 20, or 50? Why not give us eyes on the back of our heads too where they'd do much good? Why a singular tongue rather than a forked tongue? Why do we have hair in our armpits? Why do men have facial hair but women don't. Is there any practical use for that? Do men really need two testes instead of one? Do we need five digits on each hand and foot instead of three or six? Do men and women need two foundational chromosomes each (X and Y) instead of one or ten? The fact is that we think our opinions are relevant, even smart... until we start really thinking. Just like a child, the more "why" questions you ask, the more you realize you don't know. The problem with us is that by the time we're teenagers, we already think we're smarter than we really are. And, ironically but not ironically, this mindset of ours that we know much and that our opinions are important only gets worse with age.

God does what He wants. That's the whole problem from the human point of view. He doesn't need your or my approval before deciding what He's going to do with the Eph. 4 ministries or where apostles might be needed. The sun doesn't go down at night because God decided we all better get sleep once a day (if the sun went down for that reason, then there wouldn't be places like Alaska where the sun can remain in the sky for six straight months of light and then vanish beneath the horizon for six straight months of darkness). The sun goes down at night because God determined that it would. The same, all the ministries in Eph. 4:11 are relevant-- and will remain in force despite those who like the fact and those who dislike the fact and no matter how many false ministers make any of those ministries look bad-- because God said they will. Little children who are still small (ie. unimportant) in their own eyes understand this. It's not hard to see why adults often don't.

If you want to grow spiritually, then your opinions can no longer be your bodyguards (2Cor. 10:4 calls them "strongholds" because they act like guards or ramparts and protect their owners from God's truth). Approach the things if God like a little child (who doesn't rely on his opinions) and the more "why" questions you ask about anything (choose any topic), the more insight you'll receive. Then you'll begin to understand the things of God rather than to opine, to know with assurance the things of God rather than to speculate.

No, they aren't. I'm careful not to be arrogant and quote something to be absolute, that I'm not sure of.
I certainly don't trust your opinion, sorry, although I agree with some of it.
I try to work out what Jesus is doing, and what He will do, and I've done that throughout my 39 year, almost 40 year Christian walk. I haven't belonged to any denomination except the one I belonged to before I became a Christian.

The Lord is bringing out a few from denominations for Himself. That, I am sure of.

The Old Testament was not the Bible. It was the history of the Jews primarily. As I said there was no New Testament in the early church.

Having worked in the catholic system it is more of a denomination than denominations.

As I said the New Testament did not exist in the New Testament Church

At 70AD it wasn't even written.

I don't like arguing or even debating. I like doing, not talking. In the case of Gideon, out of 32,000 men, 31, 700 were talkers. Only 300 were doers. That's the overall ration today still. But this is a website, so I can't do anything. I better do some talking then.

Firstly, yes, your opinions are getting in the way of your understanding. And they're getting in God's way. Before you rise in your own defense again, like all people are prone to do, let's briefly look at the way the apostles' own opinions got in Jesus's way and prevented the Gospel from spreading after Jesus ascended:

The apostles were Jews first. In one sentence, the Jewish mindset of the day about God's relationship to Jews and Gentiles was that 'God is God of the Jews, but not of the Gentiles'. The apostles had this same mindset which was evident from the start of the early Church. In Acts 6:1-7, we see that this Jewish mindset (to discriminate against non-Jews) was so strong that the early Jewish believers were discriminating against Jewish widows-- widows who were fully Jewish... but simply from Grecian nations.

Before arguing (thinking) within, "Well the apostles fixed that prejudice issue with the widows," realize that before Jesus died and rose and ascended, He told the apostles several times that they must take the Gospel first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. To enumerate, in case anyone should say His command wasn't clear enough, in Acts 1:8, Jesus told the apostles that they must preach the Gospel first in Jerusalem (stronghold of Jewish religion), then in Judea (the common Jew), then in Samaria (people who were mixed with Jew and Gentiles), then in every nation on earth (fully-Gentile nations). Jesus made it easy on them: start with Jews, slowly branch out to Jews who are mixed with Gentiles, then go to the Gentiles. But the apostles' Jewish worldview wouldn't allow them. As a result, in Acts 10 Jesus had to come Peter ten years later and forcefully stir him up to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, giving him the same vision three times back to back-- something that you don't see anywhere else in the Bible, because whereas God only dealt with the heart in the OT, in the NT He began to also deal with the mind... and the apostles' refusal to preach to the Gentiles was not a heart issue (ie. their hearts weren't against the Gentiles); it was an issue of their minds (ie. their preferences, prejudices, biases, beliefs, thoughts, human carnal reasoning, arguments, and opinions which set themselves against God's truth-- even God's known and accepted truths; their minds were against the Gentiles). The apostles didn't hate the Gentiles (heart issue); but they didn't accept them as worthy of God's Grace (a mind issue). Years later, Peter again regressed to his Jewish mindset, showing that mindsets are a real issue and do war against God's Kingdom and ways, and Paul had to forcefully remind Peter that God doesn't only love and accept the Jews but also the Gentiles. (Galatians 2:11-17.)

If the apostles' opinions got in their and God's way, how can you presume to begin to think to say that your opinions cannot and do not do the same? The amount of time you've been in ministry is moot. It doesn't matter at all. And I mean at all. Everything you said is about your own personal preferences and prejudices which is the attitude little children have. At least three separate times in your recent very short comment, you sat on the throne with your own preferences and feelings taking center stage above all else:

"I certainly don't trust your opinion... although I agree with some of it... The Lord is bringing out a few from denominations for Himself. That, I am sure of."

Most churches don't talk about overt sins to begin with (ie. sins that can be observed objectively), and almost no churches talk about covert sins (preferences, biases, attitudes in the heart and mind). Since this is the case, especially regarding covert sins, why would we know about our own covert sins and wrong attitudes and mindsets when none of the 'experts' or our trusted leaders ever tells us we're wrong? Your thinking does get in God's way. The fact that you can't grasp that this could even be true shows that you have not found in the Bible that the greater sins are not outward or overt sins but inward sins of the heart and mind. There's not one soul who will end up in 'Hell' because of sin (observable wrongdoing); rather, everyone who ends up in 'Hell' goes there because of rebellion (covert wrongdoing-- a heart issue). Sin is the outward issue; rebellion is the real issue. That's why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or denying Jesus as the way to God is rebellion, not sin. That's also why when both Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses, God punished only Mirian and not Aaron. Aaron was only guilty of sin (speaking against Moses); but Miriam was guilty of sin and rebellion (her heart was set against Moses). Put away your 39 years of christianity and read the passage in Numbers 12. The only conclusion you'll be able to come to in that passage as to why God punished Miriam but not Aaron will either be that God hates women... or that Miriam was 'more wrong' than Aaron-- but that the Bible didn't fully explain it to us. (A clue to the fact Miriam was rebellious while Aaron was not is in what God says about how Miriam's father would've treated her if she disrespected him.) We can only learn what we've been taught by others or through experience, etc. Especially in God, there is always more to learn. Always.

What do you mean?