The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

And you know this how? Show me the verse or verses (or as you said that line up with the Biblical facts) that a rapture will take place before the great tribulation? I don't see it. In fact I use to believe in the rapture as described by Hal Lindsey and others even before Hal wrote his book, "The Late Great Planet Earth" in 1970. I changed my position because it just did not line up with Scripture. You might want to read what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy 2:16-19.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

You might want to read what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy 2:16-19.

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Revelation 19:14
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

But none of these verses shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven.

You still have not provided ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. None.

It says they go up.

The verse uses the word "up". Heaven is up.

Second Coming = "down". We return with Him at the Second Coming.

ya ---ya same old --same old -----stuff you have been saying -----on and on you go ----round the mulberry bush ---LOL ----

It says they go up. The verse uses the word "up". Heaven is up. The Marriage is up in Heaven (and I realize that poses a problem for post-trib rappers.)
Second Coming = "down". We return with Him at the Second Coming.

(and I realize that poses a problem for post-trib rappers.)

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Revelation 19:14
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”


2 Timothy 2
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

When you are finished LYHO, would you kindly find any verse that DOES show Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven?

Thanks.

When you are finished LYHO, would you kindly find any verse that DOES show Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven?

So I say to you ------believe as you will ---but if I were you I would want there to be a Pre--Trib Rapture as the horror that is coming upon this earth is no joke ---and you should not want to be here when God unleashes His Wrath upon the unbelievers who have not come to the realization that they need a Saviour to be Heaven bound ------that is the purpose of the 7 year Tribulation ---to wake up the hardened Hearts of many --many unbelievers who feel they can save themselves -----


The true Saved Saints will be gone from this wrath -----that is my believe and as far as I am concerned I have proven that through scripture and charts ---

Your concern should be will you be ?????????================

-----that is the real Question ------you should be concerned about ------not trying to get proof of what you think or disbelieve about Jesus taking up glorified bodies --when or how-there will be no warning for the Rapture of God's Church ------all is in place for it to happen -----

You don't want to be here for this event

A lot of things are "up". Ceilings, clouds, birds flying, planes flying, smoke. Take your pick. But, "up" without further description does NOT mean "heaven".

Revelation 3:10
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

It poses a problem because in prophecy the wedding is described on Earth.

You have to account for the words of Jesus Himself at Matthew 24:3 where the disciples ask Him when is the "last" day or the end of the world. How can the rapture occur before the last day? There is only one last day. Even Martha at John 11:24 stated, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY." She was referring to her brother Lazarus. Also at Revelation 20:5, "This is the first resurrection." I can provide more verses if you want.

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Revelation 19:14
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”


2 Timothy 2
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

If we use this as a proof scripture for a secret escape to heaven there are 2 big problems with it.

1 Why are we cherry-picking ? 3: 10 is addressing the church at Philadelphia. One church from seven.

Is the entire church at the time of The Great Tribulation represented by the Philadelphian church alone? Not by the others?
If so we need to be told by pretrib teachers why we may cherry pick the line that sounds most pleasing from all of Jesus' messages.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

2 Can God keep his followers from temptation ONLY by removing them from Earth entirely?
A question believers need to ask their pretrib teachers. Who has decided that God cannot protect believers on Earth?

If God was able to protect Israel by the blood of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, why would he be obliged to remove all believers
from Earth during tribulation? We are marked by the blood of The Lamb, Jesus.

Have the raptured people already experienced death? Just like the two witnesses?

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb 9:27 KJV

Please show me this prophecy.

Who is this coming up from the wilderness,
leaning on the one she loves? SOS 8:5


Psalm 45 is a royal wedding Maskil (song) If I post it all I'll take up the whole page.

9 Kings’ daughters are among your honored women;
the queen, adorned with gold from Ophir,
stands at your right hand.
10 Listen, daughter, pay attention and consider:
Forget your people and your father’s house,
11 and the king will desire your beauty.
Bow down to him, for he is your lord.
12 The daughter of Tyre, the wealthy people,
will seek your favor with gifts.
13 In her chamber, the royal daughter is all glorious,
her clothing embroidered with gold.
14 In colorful garments she is led to the king;
after her, the virgins, her companions, are brought to you.
15 They are led in with gladness and rejoicing;
they enter the king’s palace.


Isaiah 62

4 You will no longer be called Deserted,
and your land will not be called Desolate;
instead, you will be called My Delight Is in Her, [ Hephzibah ]
and your land Married; [Beulah ]
for the Lord delights in you,
and your land will be married.
5 For as a young man marries a young woman,
so your sons will marry you;
and as a groom rejoices over his bride,
so your God will rejoice over you.


Isaiah 25

6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.

9 In that day they will say,

“Surely this is our God;
we trusted in him, and he saved us.
This is the Lord, we trusted in him;

let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”

8 ↑ is the verse quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15


Also Psalm 68 records the processional return of the King.

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...Up does not mean down, as in returning to Earth with Jesus at the second Coming. These are two separate events.