The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine
- Thread starter Evmur
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
FreeGrace2 said:
When you are finished LYHO, would you kindly find any verse that DOES show Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven?
Thanks.
We ALL know that the "rapture theory" has both dead and the living receiving new glorified bodies, so your comments are irrelevant.
Do you have a verse showing Jesus taking ANY glorified believer to heaven? No. You don't. But you can keep on LYHO.
When you are finished LYHO, would you kindly find any verse that DOES show Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven?
Thanks.
We ALL know that the "rapture theory" has both dead and the living receiving new glorified bodies, so your comments are irrelevant.
Do you have a verse showing Jesus taking ANY glorified believer to heaven? No. You don't. But you can keep on LYHO.
The Millennial Reign takes place on Earth, yes?
The context states that we shall ever be with the Lord. We go where He goes. When He comes down, we come down.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct!
In our Final State, our home shall be in the First Heaven: Our home (building) shall be the New Jerusalen in the sky!
Revelation 21:2 Context
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
The context states that we shall ever be with the Lord. We go where He goes. When He comes down, we come down.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct!
In our Final State, our home shall be in the First Heaven: Our home (building) shall be the New Jerusalen in the sky!
Revelation 21:2 Context
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
-
1
- Show all
What you can't force is false doctrine into the Bible.
You still have NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
And you have the inexplicable problem about the one resurrection of the saved, which clearly occurs at the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". Every reference to Jesus' coming is the Second Advent, as the OT prophesied of only two advents. He comes back as King of kings at the Second Advent.
He does not come back before the Trib.
You still have NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
And you have the inexplicable problem about the one resurrection of the saved, which clearly occurs at the Second Advent.
1 Cor 15:23 says that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes". Every reference to Jesus' coming is the Second Advent, as the OT prophesied of only two advents. He comes back as King of kings at the Second Advent.
He does not come back before the Trib.
nonsense
UP to the top of Mt Sinai
Ex 19:20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai at the top of the mountain. Then the Lord summoned Moses to the top of the mountain,
and he went up.
UP and taken to another place on Earth.
Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.
Philip was caught away (harpazo)
UP to the clouds
1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Caught up (harpazo)
UP to the top of Mt Sinai
Ex 19:20 The Lord came down on Mount Sinai at the top of the mountain. Then the Lord summoned Moses to the top of the mountain,
and he went up.
UP and taken to another place on Earth.
Acts 8:39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea.
Philip was caught away (harpazo)
UP to the clouds
1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Caught up (harpazo)
Let's live in such a way that God will count us as belonging to the Philadelphia Church then.
Let's not emulate them.
Only for those with the testimony of the "Phillies." There are true believers who emulate the Church of Philadelphia that are alive today.
That is correct. Only the unbelievers (many Jewish) shall be left behind. All must come under the Blood of Jesus.
Let's not emulate them.
Only for those with the testimony of the "Phillies." There are true believers who emulate the Church of Philadelphia that are alive today.
That is correct. Only the unbelievers (many Jewish) shall be left behind. All must come under the Blood of Jesus.
For me what stood out the strongest was "The Church should be looking for Jesus". This playing with words...well the talk about "up" doesn't mean or say we are going to heaven. Ok then say the flip said also please? Nor does it say we all return right after that. But Christ did talk about us in heaven with Him. Is not that where He is right now and made a place for us? Did He not say so where I am you will be also? Ok we all know He is in heaven as He said and if He goes He will come back and get us take us receive us unto Him self so "where" He is we will be. He even added you know where I am going and how. Now only guess here is "what Christ really meant was"..
A false doctrine is not something someone preaches that I personally don't agree with. I can't find post trib in the bible so this must mean it also is a false doctrine? Some know and some don't that is odd that many from 30-400 bc talked about preached about wrote about as in scrolls about Christ coming before the great tribulation. Well before 1830 or 1600 (yeah it pre trib was preached about wrote about in 1600) So oh no does this mean its true or its just what some believed.
My biggest hang up is Gods wrath. Lot had to be gone from those cities or as He said "as long as you are here I can do nothing". Yet today God has changed. So today when Gods wrath comes not on a part here or there but on the earth, the whole earth and all in it.. this time we the righteous..which unlike Lot have CHRIST in us and God will just do what? Yeah its not written no where in the bible. There is no scripture saying the CHRUCH will be here during the great tribulation. Were not told the Church will not worship the best but were told those whos names have been written before the foundation of the world will not worship the beast.
Again for me it always comes down to someone somewhere telling us what this or that verse was really saying what it really means. We all know there are verses here we do not fully understand and there is not org Greek or ancient Greek that tells us. So many run with speculation and leave out over verses that do not support their personal belief. The other think I get stuck on is every demon every fallen angel that's with Satan have no power no authority over me what so ever. There is no AntiChrist no false prophet that will ever have power over Jesus Christ, the great I am or the holy Spirt with IN ME. Yet power given to him to over come the saints. This one not many will touch. Christ said aka GOD and nothing shall by any means hurt you. For me since I was 14 till 61 I have held on to that lol so many times and He has kept His word. So I can't see me being here
So what I am have been doing and will never miss Christ coming since I believe and He will not ever go against your will your belief but am doing this "The Church should be looking for Jesus."
A false doctrine is not something someone preaches that I personally don't agree with. I can't find post trib in the bible so this must mean it also is a false doctrine? Some know and some don't that is odd that many from 30-400 bc talked about preached about wrote about as in scrolls about Christ coming before the great tribulation. Well before 1830 or 1600 (yeah it pre trib was preached about wrote about in 1600) So oh no does this mean its true or its just what some believed.
My biggest hang up is Gods wrath. Lot had to be gone from those cities or as He said "as long as you are here I can do nothing". Yet today God has changed. So today when Gods wrath comes not on a part here or there but on the earth, the whole earth and all in it.. this time we the righteous..which unlike Lot have CHRIST in us and God will just do what? Yeah its not written no where in the bible. There is no scripture saying the CHRUCH will be here during the great tribulation. Were not told the Church will not worship the best but were told those whos names have been written before the foundation of the world will not worship the beast.
Again for me it always comes down to someone somewhere telling us what this or that verse was really saying what it really means. We all know there are verses here we do not fully understand and there is not org Greek or ancient Greek that tells us. So many run with speculation and leave out over verses that do not support their personal belief. The other think I get stuck on is every demon every fallen angel that's with Satan have no power no authority over me what so ever. There is no AntiChrist no false prophet that will ever have power over Jesus Christ, the great I am or the holy Spirt with IN ME. Yet power given to him to over come the saints. This one not many will touch. Christ said aka GOD and nothing shall by any means hurt you. For me since I was 14 till 61 I have held on to that lol so many times and He has kept His word. So I can't see me being here
So what I am have been doing and will never miss Christ coming since I believe and He will not ever go against your will your belief but am doing this "The Church should be looking for Jesus."
-
3
- Show all
Thank you so much for that wonderful post, dear brother.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 Context
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1 Thessalonians 5:9 Context
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
-
1
- Show all
FreeGrace2 said:
Show us any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven. That's the evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
Reality: the single resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:4-6
All very clear.
I've read EVERYTHING pre-tribbers have quoted and I STILL haven't seen any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
So, since I am having difficulty with your generalized "answer", can you just quote a verse that clearly shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
That would settle the issue for ALL TIME.
The verses I cited clearly show the single resurrection of believers to be at the Second Advent.
Show us any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven. That's the evidence for a pre-trib rapture.
Reality: the single resurrection of all believers will occur at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1, 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:4-6
All very clear.
I've read EVERYTHING pre-tribbers have quoted and I STILL haven't seen any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
So, since I am having difficulty with your generalized "answer", can you just quote a verse that clearly shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?
That would settle the issue for ALL TIME.
The verses I cited clearly show the single resurrection of believers to be at the Second Advent.
-
1
- Show all
Good Luck staying here for the 7 year tribulation-----you will all wish that you believed in the pre==trib rapture ----when God's wrath is poured out on this earth and all God's Children are gone ------
------Just remember do not accept the Mark of the Beast or your done -and hell bound ---keep the faith throughout your torcher-----
I say ---
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I am so happy that I will be gone and kept away from what horror that is coming upon thus earth ----so greatfull every day -----
Pre--Tri Rapture
I;m gone
-
1
- Show all
No luck needed. And wishing for a pre-trib rapture won't help either.
God's Word is very clear. There are only 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the lost.
Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So, in all 3 passages, the blue words refer to the saved, and the red words refer to the unsaved.
So it is very important WHERE one places that single resurrection of the saved.
And, just to be clear and sure, 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The purple words refer to Jesus has being the FIRST to receive an immortal resurrection body. Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Recall that many people had been raised from the dead, both in the OT and during Jesus' ministry on earth. But Jesus is the FIRST to have an immortal resurrection body, as Paul taught.
Orange words refers to the Second Advent. In the OT, there are just TWO advents of the Messiah prophesied; first advent as a baby to become the Suffering Servant, and second advent, as King of kings and Lord of lords, to rule in the MK.
Blue words refer to EVERY BELIEVER from Adam forward. iow, ALL believers will receive their resurrection bodies at the same event, which is "when He comes".
Finally, Rev 20:4 proves that the single resurrection of the saved is AFTER the Tribulation, because tribulation martyrs are mentioned as being resurrected and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.
Then, v.5 tells us the resurrection of believers is the FIRST resurrection. Recall there are only TWO resurrections total.
Finally, v.6 - Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
teaches clearly that only believers are in the "first resurrection" and repeats that they will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
In order to prove from Scripture that there will be a pre-tribulation rapture where Jesus will take all the glorified believers back up to heaven, you need a verse that actually says that.
Do you have such a verse? That's where you need to start.
At some point you are going to realize that the tribulation has begun. Looking at current events, it appears that the first 2 horsemen have been released already. Study Rev 6 and see for yourself.
I will be eager to see what verse or verses actually shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
God's Word is very clear. There are only 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the lost.
Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28,29
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So, in all 3 passages, the blue words refer to the saved, and the red words refer to the unsaved.
So it is very important WHERE one places that single resurrection of the saved.
And, just to be clear and sure, 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The purple words refer to Jesus has being the FIRST to receive an immortal resurrection body. Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Recall that many people had been raised from the dead, both in the OT and during Jesus' ministry on earth. But Jesus is the FIRST to have an immortal resurrection body, as Paul taught.
Orange words refers to the Second Advent. In the OT, there are just TWO advents of the Messiah prophesied; first advent as a baby to become the Suffering Servant, and second advent, as King of kings and Lord of lords, to rule in the MK.
Blue words refer to EVERY BELIEVER from Adam forward. iow, ALL believers will receive their resurrection bodies at the same event, which is "when He comes".
Finally, Rev 20:4 proves that the single resurrection of the saved is AFTER the Tribulation, because tribulation martyrs are mentioned as being resurrected and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.
Then, v.5 tells us the resurrection of believers is the FIRST resurrection. Recall there are only TWO resurrections total.
Finally, v.6 - Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
teaches clearly that only believers are in the "first resurrection" and repeats that they will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
----when God's wrath is poured out on this earth and all God's Children are gone ------
------
Just remember do not accept the Mark of the Beast or your done -and hell bound ---keep the faith throughout your torcher-----
I say ---
------Just remember do not accept the Mark of the Beast or your done -and hell bound ---keep the faith throughout your torcher-----
I say ---
Do you have such a verse? That's where you need to start.
At some point you are going to realize that the tribulation has begun. Looking at current events, it appears that the first 2 horsemen have been released already. Study Rev 6 and see for yourself.
I will be eager to see what verse or verses actually shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.