Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

And that's completely fair if your focus is on epistemology, which is what your argument is based in.

I agree that human wisdom is subject to err, and we have passages that compare this to the failure of the reading of signs by Jewish cultures.

But even our understanding of scripture is subject to fallible human logic and wisdom and fallible human reading of signs. It's not that logic and wisdom themselves are fallible, but the human application of those things is imperfect.

It creates a bit of a dilemma. Short of a divine revelation that could directly reveal the truth, we rely on our own stumbling senses to try to make sense of what we experience. Human logic, human reading of signs, etc.

And in the land of the blind (or partially visioned), even if one person in a crowd was given perfect sight, the others would fallibly rationalized that which hadn't been revealed to them. And among the crowd there might be people that falsely claim to see clearly. The true sighted person's voice becomes drowned out by falsely speaking people. And the blind crowd becomes lost in the confusion. Maybe a part of the crowd hears the true voice. Maybe even the portion that hears only hears partly.

Even if we are to ask the question "what does spiritually discerned truth mean" we would still be subject to our own fallible logic and sign reading in order to bring that meaning to the forefront.

We have faith that God brings us to the truth we need and that He guides our ability to discern truth through logic and reading of signs. Anyone that attempts to interpret scripture does this. At some point we have to acknowledge that words have coherent meanings and that logical continuity is intrinsic to truth. To say the phrase "I believe in God and I believe in the Bible" itself is an acceptance of basic logical principles.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." - 1 Thes 5:21 KJV

"Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." - Proverbs 27:17 KJV

"But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay." - 2 Cor 1:18 KJV

"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words." - Col 2:2-4 KJV

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." - 1 Cor 14:33 KJV

The passages you cited cannot be used as a means to dismiss all logic, only to dismiss conclusions that aren't God guided.

Jesus Himself used logic to prove His points.

Did He not use His Fathers wisdom?
I know He used things of His day like sheep , Farmers , etc...

What Christians these days claim is a work is not work at all. There is a works phobia going on for sure, but the Calvinist takes it a bridge too far, where even BELIEVING is considered a work.

When in the 1st century Paul is writing about "works" he isn't talking about the Christian baptism or repentance or loving your neighbor as yourself or loving God with all your soul heart and mind and not stealing and respecting your parents.

What Paul IS talking about is "works of the law", he even uses this phrase in his writings occasionally, and what it means is things like circumcision, dietary laws, all things jewish basically. That was the controversy at the time, should gentile believers become converts to judaism? The answer was NO. Hence why Paul says things like "If you allow yourself to be circumcised you must keep the whole law". Yet he has no issues circumcising Timothy, does this mean Timothy had to keep the law of Moses? NO. Because Timothy did it in order to win over the jews and to help his ministry among them, not to be justified..... and that is exactly it. NO MAN is justified by the works of the law. No one ever was justified by works of the law, as law of Moses made no promises of eternal salvation, it only gave curses and blessings here on earth.

So many examples it's hard to list them all. But even Jesus' reasoning with drawing an ass from a well on the Sabbath or using logic in his use of the Law in order to avoid the execution of the adultress, these are all fantastic applications in logic. Sometimes we have verses that reference both signs and logic:

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" - Mat 7:16 KJV

If you wish to de-calvinize Romans 9, I will post a video here:
"The potter can do with the clay as he may" but if you read Jeremiah 18, it turns out the Potter makes his decision based on what the clay does:

Jeremiah 18
The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying,
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

The potter can do as he wills, and this verse shows how it works. Nineveh is a perfect example, God pronounces judgment and doom on them, yet they REPENT and God repents of His judgment as well. The same thing we see in Jeremiah 18.

So the Romans 9 isn't as clear cut calvinism as they would have you believe. God also tells us who he will harden and who he will have mercy on. He will have mercy on the humble and faithful and harden those who REFUSE to believe, like the Pharisees.

John 12:40
“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

[Note to reader, John 12:40 is meaningless in Calvin-land, as them being totally depraved, they would have no chance to believe, meaning to harden their hearts or blind their eyes or to prevent their understanding by speaking parables would be a useless exercise, they couldn't believe anyway. Cause they are totally depraved, non-elect with no regeneration]

That is what the new law does also. It tells us how we were saved (delivered) eternally, but it does not tell us how to get saved (delivered) eternally. All of those that are saved (delivered) eternally, were delivered on the cross, and that was only for those that God gave to his Son.

All Israel shall be saved (Rom 11:28). Even though most of the house of Israel turned away from God, except for the remnant of the house of Israel, they will all be saved, the house of Israel, and the remnant of the house of Israel (Zeph 3:11-13 ).

All calvanist heresy comes from misunderstanding the reason of our Lords' sacrifice.
They think God wanted his Son to suffer for sin. They seem unaware that God wanted people to repent for causing the suffering they were putting his Son through.
Calvanists don't really want to understand Jer.18.

I'm not a Calvinist, but I don't understand what is being criticized. The concept that people were chosen from the foundation of the world?

The concept that from the foundation of the world, God decided people who would believe in him would be his people. As opposed to the nonsensical belief that God chooses people regardless of their will. It's like reading,

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to to them that love him? Jas.2:5

and then interpreting it to mean that all poor people are saved. All poor people are rich in faith. All poor people love God. It's stupid.

The concept that from the foundation of the world, God decided people who would believe in him would be his people.

As opposed to the nonsensical belief that God chooses people regardless of their will”

You don’t say a lot but whenever you do it’s always such a concise impact and accurate thought God bless

God bless you also.
It's sickening how Christs' sacrifice has been reduced to nothing.
If people are saved regardless of what they come to believe through reason, then everything Jesus did is meaningless.

It is really disheartening brother I feel that also. Many don’t understand what you’re saying because they have been taught by “ glorious grace books “ rather than scripture .

and when someone says hey what about this ? Which is what I hear in your words

“He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the problem they have is that the glorious grace book taught them “ that’s not grace it’s not for you , nothing you do or choose can ever disrespect the blood of Jesus “

really it’s this coming to pass and is so disheartening

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

many have embraced fables instead of clinging to the truth of Jesus Christ and his word. And it makes them unable to hear like israel and ther false prophets caused

Subtle still like in Eden but always the opposite of what the lord declared and always a fable opposed to the truth that leads us home

anyways I just wanted to mention that I really always get a clear true message whenever you do speak here it’s always in line with the scripture

Jesus and blind man that's healed:

Jesus - Well?
blind - Well what?
Jesus - Do you believe in me now?
blind - No.
Jesus - Why not?
blind - No reason.

Ah, the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

Lets do some Bible study here, I will use two versions here, one is the KING JAMES VERSION, the other one is CLB (Calvinist lense Bible)

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 CLB
For God so loved the world[of the elect], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever [is predestinated to] believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


In other words what I have seen many calvinists do is they refer to the "world of the elect" in john 3:16, but then they have to FLIP THE SCRIPT when they get to 1 John 2:2

1 John 2:2 KJV
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 CLB
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins[Christians? Jews?]: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world[Christians as well? gentiles?].

Hebrews 2:9 KJV
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hebrews 2:9 CLB
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every[kind of man, or every elect] man.

There is a very much in the way of "electing" and "choosing" going on here bro. Polarizing views to the contrary does this phenomenon no justice.

Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called (G2822), and chosen (G1588), and faithful.

(G2822) klētos

1. called, invited (to a banquet)
   1. invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ
   2. called to (the discharge of) some office
      1. divinely selected and appointed

(G1588) eklektos

1. picked out, chosen
   1. chosen by God,
      1. to obtain salvation through Christ
         1. Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
      2. the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
      3. choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. G1588

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen. G1588

Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake G1588 those days shall be shortened.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? G1588 It is God that justifieth.


Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen (G1586) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

(G1586) eklegomai

1. to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self
   1. choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
   2. choosing one for an office
   3. of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight
      1. i.e. the Israelites
   4. of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only

2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen (G138) you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

(G138) haireō

1. to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
2. to choose by vote, elect to office

Jhn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Jhn 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Act 1:24
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Rom 16:13
Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

1Pe 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

I don't know the specifics about how Calvinists approach the topic, but an effective way to approach this dilemma in defense of determinism would be to state that:

1) "people who would believe in Him would be His people" (same point from your post)
2) That God put into these people a nature that causes them to believe or be irresistably drawn towards belief when put into the correct circumstances
3) God is able to put anyone into correct circumstances in order to activate this nature, but for those without this nature there are no circumstances that could turn them to belief (cf. Parable of wheat and tares)
4) Therefore Saul was chosen from the foundation of the world to have a predetermined path that eventually led to his state of belief, because it was in his nature to do so, provided the right push. And it served God's purposes to have Saul as an antiChrist prior to his conversion. Therefore, prior to being Paul, Saul was still an unrealized chosen person for salvation and had always been a chosen person.
5) While the nature would determine belief, the free will in life would still influence one's works in life that are tried by fire (1 Cor 3:15).

I think there are different ways to look at it, but at this point I don't see (soft) determinism as something that would be inconsistent with scripture. But it's entirely possible I'm overlooking something. Feedback is always appreciated!

I know the word chosen and elect is in the Bible. If I was a calvinist, I wouldn't quote Matthew 22:14 though, as the whole idea is that the first group didn't ACCEPT the invitation and didn't wanna come to the wedding so the King says GO AND INVITE EVERYONE.

Yes we are chosen IN HIM (in CHRIST) before the foundation of the world, because the lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world, and we are in HIM. It was planned

People try so hard to disprove Calvinism that they become really dumb when doing it.

If the Atonement isn't limited to believers and it applies to everyone then it makes Scripture FALSE. There can be no condemnation of ANYONE because ALL SIN has been paid for.

The Atonement is OBVIOUSLY limited to believers. They are the ones who are not condemned. Unbelievers remain condemned of their sin.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Believe = Atoned
Not Believe = Not Atoned

Not difficult. Very simple.

It is not possible to have someone who is simultaneously condemned and Atoned for. Otherwise, what are you saying about the Atonement???