Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Papermonkey

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Magenta said:
Okay.


Did someone say it was?


Who is insisting this?


Can you point me to to these posts?


Yeah, that word gets thrown around a lot. Too much.


I agree. In fact, TD is accepted across the majority of Christendom. People kick and scream at their own lack of understanding, it seems. Part of the Arminian acronym has total depravity also, as the "T" in FACTS. Molinism modifies humanity's depravity to being radical.



Jesus' Words in John 6:65
:)
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To answer your questions, who says this, that would be those who state we have free will to choose the gospel,and can freely choose Christ.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Papermonkey said:
To answer your questions, who says this, that would be those who state we have free will to choose the gospel,and can freely choose Christ.
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Yeah, that free will thing is a stickler. The fact is, even though we make choices, our will is not free, nor is it a Biblical concept.

What I say is that our will is constrained by too many factors to truly be called free.

I am aware of having had the choice put before me. Being in the natural man at the time, a state I am intimately aware of having lived there for fifty years, I was unable to say yes to God. Perhaps even worse, I did not want to say yes to that God. But it did alter my course, because I eventually started going to church, and then was involved in the Alpha Course, where I finally became aware that I had given up my fight against God. I sometimes ask people questions about what they believe because I know my beliefs have been influenced by my experiences, and I am curious to know their own, if they have been influenced that way also. Not all are in the same ways. There are many different reasons why people believe in God. I am aware of God drawing me, of His calling on my life. I know He did a work in me before I could surrender my life to Him. They were profound experiences for me.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
I had to reply to your last point:

What do you think these verses mean?

[Rom 9:20-22 KJV]
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
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So either God is a liar, or you are misunderstanding the context of this Scripture. I'm prone to go with the latter explanation. What is the context here, in this chapter and who is being spoken to? Let's start there.
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
1. To complete God the Father's plan of salvation and Christ's offering.
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There is no need. The salvation plan is only for a few. In fact there was no need of Christ to shed a drop of blood, if the elect are already saved and on their way to heaven. Christ died in vein and for no one.

rogerg said:
. For the edification of the elect and the saints to include the teaching of Christ and God's plan of salvation.
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The elect don't need it. And those that do can't receive it.

rogerg said:
3. To establish evidence of violations for future judgment against those who will never be under the auspices of Christ.
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Why? They had no choice. Their fate was sealed before they were born, what is God just rubbing it in now?!
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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Papermonkey said:
Why did Jesus tell us no one can come to him unless God calls,leads,them?

Why did Paul tell us our natural mind, meaning the unredeemed, cannot understand the things of God? And the only thing that remedies that is intervention by God, the Holy Spirit?
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The Holy Spirit guides us to Christ.
 
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rogerg

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
There is no need. The salvation plan is only for a few. In fact there was no need of Christ to shed a drop of blood, if the elect are already saved and on their way to heaven. Christ died in vein and for no one.
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Christ had to die to make payment for those He came to save and to make good God's promise of salvation to Abraham of
his (Abraham's) spiritual seed.

ThereRoseaLamb said:
The elect don't need it. And those that do can't receive it.
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Maybe according to you, but according to God, He desires them to gain an understanding of the gift they are given,
the mercies of God, and an understanding of the basis of their salvation.

ThereRoseaLamb said:
Why? They had no choice. Their fate was sealed before they were born, what is God just rubbing it in now?!
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The manifestation of their violation. It is their contention and desire that they are able find God and come to faith of themselves by their
works, so God gives the opportunity to prove it if they can.
 
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rogerg

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
So either God is a liar, or you are misunderstanding the context of this Scripture. I'm prone to go with the latter explanation. What is the context here, in this chapter and who is being spoken to? Let's start there.
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No, I don't like taking orders, if you want to discuss it then say on as to what you think it means.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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brightfame52 said:
Im good, I conclude you and I dont see eye to eye on that matter.
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brightfame52 said:
Im good, I conclude you and I dont see eye to eye on that matter.
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Mostly we don't see eye to eye on how to minister the truth. You seem to be able to disaffect even those who largely agree with you.
Try a little kindness and gentleness. People are beat up enough already.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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ThereRoseaLamb said:
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13

The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
Matthew 7:7


Seek the Lord while he may be found;call on him while he is near.
Isaiah 55:6

This is what the Lord says to Israel: “Seek me and live.”
Amos 5:4


Seek good, not evil, that you may live.Then the Lord God Almighty will be with you,just as you say he is.
Amos 5:14

John 15 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.


This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. Rev. 14

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

“Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”


“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy- laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. “For My yoke is easy, and My load is light” (Matt 11:28-30)


Seek me, follow me, obey me. Why would Scripture say this if man has no free will?

Without free-will, man cannot love God. And we know that God says for us to love Him with all our heart (Matt 22:37). For a man to love God, he must have the freedom to choose or reject Him. Love involves an acceptance of the person being loved, in this case God.


There are still forced and arranged marriages today. In fact the Bible often talks about the saints as a bride. If I am forced to marry the groom, do I love them? No, any bride wants to choose her groom. Forced love is not true love.

Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .

That would be a lie, if God created a few elect and others to perish.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."


Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right, is welcome to Him” Acts 10


“For there is no respecter of persons with God” (Rom 2:11 KJV)

Scripture does not teach God created some to be saved and some to perish.
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This is an awesome post. :)

Calvinism is basically a denial of reality superimposed on scripture so no matter which scripture verses you cite it will be of no avail.
 
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rogerg

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HeIsHere said:
Paul told us "salvation" is the gift of God.

That "faith" is a gift in Ephesians is a not linguistically supportable.
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If (as you say), salvation is the gift of 2:8, then grace and faith are what brought it into being and thereby part
of the gift too.
 
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brightfame52

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HeIsHere said:
Proverbs is not speaking about spiritual salvation.
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Says who ? God created everything in view of Salvation through Christ. This world was created for Him as the Surety redeemer Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The wicked of Prov 16 served His Purpose, the Day of wrath
 
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brightfame52

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Cameron143 said:
Mostly we don't see eye to eye on how to minister the truth. You seem to be able to disaffect even those who largely agree with you.
Try a little kindness and gentleness. People are beat up enough already.
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This is about the Gospel doctrine of unconditional election !
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
Christ had to die to make payment for those He came to save and to make good God's promise of salvation to Abraham of
his (Abraham's) spiritual seed.
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But he didn't "come to save" they were already safe in the fold. And God had already made and unconditional covenant with Abraham.


rogerg said:
Maybe according to you, but according to God, He desires them to gain an understanding of the gift they are given,
the mercies of God, and an understanding of the basis of their salvation.
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But again, they are already safe. They always were, they always will be. Why kill your only Son for people who are already on their happy way to heaven? The basis of their salvation is God picking and choosing, not on Christ's sacrifice, so there is no need for all the drama. They already won the lottery in life.


rogerg said:
The manifestation of their violation.
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They didn't violate anything, they were chosen for destruction. Not their choice.


rogerg said:
It is their contention and desire that they are able find God and come to faith of themselves by their works, so God gives the opportunity to prove it if they can.
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We're not saved by works, correct?
 
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ThereRoseaLamb

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rogerg said:
No, I don't like taking orders, if you want to discuss it then say on as to what you think it means.
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Not an order, an invitation to discuss. I don't wish to argue. We can close the door on it if you wish. I'm asking what is the context of the chapter, what is being spoken about. If you want to discuss further, let me know.
 
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