Rapture True or False.

Hi GaryA,

Another couple of questions regarding what you've put here ^ :


--do you believe that Daniel 12:1[,6-7,11] ("there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time") is speaking of the same time-frame that Jesus was referencing in Matthew 24:[15,]21?


--do you believe that Daniel 12:6-7's "time, times, and an half" is referring to the same time-frame that Daniel 7:25[,27,20b,21,22b] which has v.25 saying "a time and times and the dividing of time" ? (And, who do you believe v.20b is DESCRIBING?)

That's the point I'm trying to make about people who follow Jesus, nothing for them is tribulation, in Christ we have peace.
But in the world we have tribulation.

We are not of the world.We need to overcome the tribulation.

No matter how bad the situation is, we have peace in Christ.

I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715] God"

^ EDIT: I'd say you have to back up a little further... to 3:13 "before [G1715 - emprosthen - en G1722 and pros G4314] God"...

...connecting back to Daniel 7:13 (see LXX) and its "LXX G4374 - prosphero - pros G4314 and phero G5342"





[that context is... UP; See also Rev4:4, 5:4, 5:6, 5:9 ("hast redeemed US...") ]

Hear hear......

Dan 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

1Th 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1Th 3:13
To the end G1519 he may stablish G4741 your G5216 hearts G2588 unblameable G273 in G1722 holiness G42 before G1715 God, G2316 even G2532 our G2257 Father, G3962 at G1722 the coming G3952 of our G2257 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 with G3326 all G3956 his G846 saints. G40

G3326 - meta - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Ok, interesting, let me see IF I may not have my sequence 'in order' here:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly ("in the air"?) Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians_1:19-23; Colossians_1:18; 1_Thessalonians_4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1_Thessalonians_4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2_Corinthians_5:8; Philippians_1:21-23; 1_Thessalonians_4:13 KJB!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1_Thessalonians_4:16-17; 1_Corinthians_15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers [ ALL of ] His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2_Thessalonians_2:1-3; 1_Corinthians_15:49; 2_Corinthians_12:2, 5:1, 2;
Ephesians_1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians_3:20; 2_Timothy_4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For [ ALL of ] HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans_2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1_Corinthians_3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2_Corinthians_5:10;
Ephesians_6:8; Colossians_3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, [ ALL of ] the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians_5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then (Before God) CHRIST Will Present [ ALL of ] His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven, Where we Live Forever And Ever! * Amen!
(1_Thessalonians_3:13; Colossians_1:5, 22;
1_Corinthians_6:3; 2_Corinthians_5:1-2 KJB!)

Sound about right?

* see "fly to save soul?" post # 18

G1715 - emprosthen - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

The KJV translates Strong's G1715 in the following manner: before (41x), in (one's) sight (2x), of (1x), against (1x), in the sight of (1x), in the presence of (1x), at (1x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. in front, before
   1. before, i.e. in that local region which is in front of a person or thing
   2. before, in the presence of, i.e. opposite to, over against one
   3. before, in the sight of
   4. before, denoting rank

1Th 3:13
To the end G1519 he may stablish G4741 your G5216 hearts G2588 unblameable G273 in G1722 holiness G42 before G1715 God, G2316 even G2532 our G2257 Father, G3962 at G1722 the coming G3952 of our G2257 Lord G2962 Jesus G2424 Christ G5547 with G3326 all G3956 his G846 saints. G40

the Rapture or Caught Away is an absolute Fact!
the debate is when the Rapture itself takes place.
that is where both truth and deception reside at.

Not if you decide to diligently study the matter.
When you do, pre-trib is the fact of the matter and is the ONLY possibility given the abundance of data....

there's definitely going to be a gathering before the 144k evangelist have a last days revival for certain. i lean more mid-trib but easily can understand pre-trib viewpoints.

Just spend 3 months and read all of this buddy. Thats all I can say......

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Thank You sir!

i do keep in mind the last 7, specifically, last 3 1/2 years, second half of the Tribulation, the emphasis is upon JEWS coming to Christ. even though we know during the last Revival [[ALL Nations]] will be represented, it's mostly directed at bringing JEWS to Yeshua. Clearly, the Gentile Period we are currently in will End. but nowhere states we aren't still on Earth technically when Tribulation begins or for some period between years 1 thru 3 1/2. so i am not thoroughly convinced it literally means before Tribulation begins. i don't think Day One of Tribulation will be any different than the Day before Tribulation begins. i don't think there's any spiritual evidence from Satan for a long period if not until the Second half of Tribulation where people will see anything different than the Day before Tribulation begins. That could go for a couple of years. Christians are only being persecuted by Atheist, not demon possessed robots of Satan with the Mark during first couple years of Tribulation.

i don't see a Rapture happening until Gentile Christians are nearing true danger. and that's not really happening until probably year 3 of Tribulation.

Michael does not stand up and deliver Jews only its every one who was found written in the book of life,
and that does not take place until you see Christ come through those clouds like he says The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light. then the sound of the trumpet the last trump when all these things be finished the angel told Daniel this is why he said Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light then they shall se the son of man coming on a cloud with great power and glory then he shall send his angels with the sound of the trumpet the last trump of rev and gather his elect from the four winds .Matthew 24.

This part I have a minor niggle with... lol.

Recall the phrase "and SO [/in this manner] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 -UNIONed-with] the Lord"... where that "so [/in this manner]" refers to the "caught up together with them in the clouds to the meeting of the Lord in the air" (i.e. our Rapture / Snatch)...

Well, this must precede the part where it states, "shall God bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him [/Jesus]"...

...thus Paul doesn't want them (the Thessalonians) to be ignorant concerning the matter of "just HOW" it can be so that THEY ALSO will participate in the "bring WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him thing, at His Second Coming to the earth time-slot (when the Col3:4 thing happens, etc), and Paul says, THIS IS HOW... They'll be resurrected first before we'll all be caught up together at the same time [in one snatch-action], so they'll be there bodily [now] ALSO--the entire "Church which is His body"--so that God will also "bring with [UNIONed-with] Him" THEM (TOO) at His RETURN to the earth time-slot.




While it is indeed TRUE that "the dead in Christ" who "sleep through Jesus" are presently "AT HOME with the Lord" (without their glorified bodies yet... THAT awaits their being resurrected bodily / "shall RISE first"), this part of the verse that I'm pointing out is not speaking of Jesus bringing them with Him THEN (without their bodies, as in, in their spirits/souls), but rather "how it will be so" that God can "bring with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him" THEM (also) if / since they've DIED BEFOREHAND.

"THIS IS HOW," Paul is explaining... because he does not want them to be ignorant of this matter. = )

The Bible is plain and clear about the rapture The bible says in I believe its first Corinthians
We Shall Not Proceed those who have fallen asleep in Christ all the dead from old testament to new testament.
for the dead in Christ shall rise first then we who are alive and Remain shall be caught up together to meet the lord in the air
and so we shall ever be with the lord caught up means the same thing as rapture its just a different word. Rapture means caught up

@annakat 's Post #75,

First of all, welcome to CC... Nice to have you here.


As to your post #75,

CONSIDER...

It is helpful when viewing a particular phrase, like "thy people," to see how the word or phrase is used elsewhere WITHIN the SAME BOOK.

And here is what we find in the book of Daniel:


"thy people" (8x... in Daniel)


Daniel 9:15 -

And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.


Daniel 9:16 -

O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.


Daniel 9:19 -

O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.


Daniel 9:24 -

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


Daniel 10:14 -

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.


Daniel 11:14 -

And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.


Daniel 12:1 (2x) -

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [<--first mention: Gen35:11 "singular"] even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.



This book is making use of this phrase ("thy people") to speak specifically of Israel... And the "time-prophecy" supplied in Dan9:24 connects with both Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (which is what connects with Matthew 24:29-31 at the "GREAT" trumpet--not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]") as well as Romans 11:26-27[,25,15,12], all regarding "Israel"



____________


As to your post #77,

yes, the word "rapture" is from the Latin, and MEANS "caught-up / or caught-away" (in the English translations), the word "harpagēsometha" in Greek (G726)

Amen! And, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!… + RICH Blessings

You have just contradicted what is written in Daniel 12:1.