Who Justifieth the Ungodly

rogerg · May 18, 2023

Everything that natural (unsaved) man has is, in a sense, from God with intellect being one of them; however, while man is born with intellect, he is not born with true faith, and which can come only as a gift of God. Natural man cannot give to himself true faith - it is obtained through the fruit of the Holy Spirit, upon becoming born-again.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

rogerg · May 18, 2023

posthuman said:

please consider this:

2 Kings 6:1-7
And the sons of the prophets said to Elisha, "See now, the place where we dwell with you is too small for us. Please, let us go to the Jordan, and let every man take a beam from there, and let us make there a place where we may dwell."
So he answered, "Go."
Then one said, "Please consent to go with your servants." And he answered, "I will go." So he went with them.
And when they came to the Jordan, they cut down trees. But as one was cutting down a tree, the iron ax head fell into the water; and he cried out and said, "Alas, master! For it was borrowed."
So the man of God said, "Where did it fall?" And he showed him the place.
So he cut off a stick, and threw it in there; and he made the iron float.
Therefore he said, "Pick it up for yourself."
So he reached out his hand and took it.

The Jor-Dan is the river of death proceeding from the city of Adam. it means 'flow down' and it stops at the dead sea.

The axe head is a precious thing worth more than a man's life.

It is borrowed.

The Man of God puts the BRANCH into the waters of flowing-to-death and raises the precious borrowed thing worth more than an earthly life.

this is a clear picture of salvation, testifying of Christ: the testimony of Christ is the proper interpretation of scripture.

so here is my question:
why must the man reach out and take the axe head?

I disagree with your exegesis. Where in the Bible do you find that it uses an axe head anywhere as being symbolic of the gospel or salvation?

posthuman · May 18, 2023

rogerg said:

in 2 Kings 6, clearly.

The BRANCH is obviously a symbol of Christ, as is the Man of God / God Man.
He saves something borrowed and precious.

Do you simply disagree because the one who had lost the precious borrowed thing in the river which flows to death had to reach out and pick it up?

What then is the interpretation?

What borrowed precious thing do we have, worth more than an earthly life, that we lose in that which flows to death, that is saved by Christ, that we must reach out and pick up?

posthuman · May 18, 2023

posthuman said:

It flies off the handle!!

posthuman · May 18, 2023

rogerg said:

but the axe head here is not a representatation of the gospel, or of salvation.

it is symbolic of that eternal thing which God has set in our hearts, from Ecclesiastes 3:11

salvation is the axe head being raised up out of the river flowing to death; the gospel is the BRANCH entering the water in order to raise it up.

rogerg · May 18, 2023

posthuman said:

It's getting late - dinner time, I'll think more about it more, tomorrow.

rogerg · May 19, 2023

posthuman said:

Posthuman

I have a few questions for you. Consider that they are all pertaining to the spiritual not to the physical. Depending upon how you answer I might have some more. I might have more anyway as I think further about it, in which case, I’ll post you.

Why were they cutting down the tree to begin with – what is the significance of their dwelling place being too “strait”?

Who does the owner of the axe represent, and what was his significance?

What does the axe handle represent?

Why did the king of Syria declare war against Israel? What in those events caused the king of Syria to go to war with Israel since verse 8 starts with the word “then” as in it being a continuation of the events?

Who was the recipient of the salvation of the axe head? Was it the one who took it up out of the river, or the axe’s owner, or someone else? It couldn’t be represented by the one who took it up because the axe was not his, and if not, then what was his role?

What was the significance of the axe head separating from the handle?

By the way, I still think the meaning of Ecc 3:11 is that what was set in the heart causes man to not perceive God's works. I say this because in v 3:10, God is referring to the sons of men, and in 3:12, that "there is no good in them". Typically, the sons of men denote the unsaved.

brightfame52 · May 21, 2023

Justified by His Death/Stripes !

If Christ has died for ones sins, by that fact alone they are Justified, made Right with God or Made Righteous before Him. For Christ has paid the price of their Redemption by His Blood, which Blood forever pleads their discharge from all iniquity and the consequences thereof Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Phrase "that he might" is stating what the Divine Purpose is for Christ dying, which results in them he died for being redeemed from ALL Iniquity, If that did not happen based solely upon His giving Himself for them, the Divine Purpose failed !

By His Knowledge [of His Own Sheep] shall He Justifiy many ! How and Why ? Because He shall bear their Iniquities Isa 53:11

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

This plainly states that His bearing their Iniquity resulted in Him Justifying the Many !

Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being redeemed from all iniquity is Justification !

They were Justified by His stripes 1 Pet 2:24 and not by their Faith, or not by their repentance, not even by believing the Gospel, in fact it was a fact [their Justification before God] even while they were enemies Rom 5:10 !

18

brightfame52 · May 26, 2023

Made Just before Faith !

Despite what false teachers tell us, believing Faith is the Gift of God to His Elect, hence its the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Its a Gift of the Spirit of Christ, or the Spirit of Grace Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Thats why believers have believed through Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

That word through is the greek word διὰ and means:

through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

Them that believed because of Grace ! Not because of their freewill as false witnesses would tell us.

And this Faith by the Spirit of Grace is given graciously unto all whom Christ by His Obedience unto Death, by which they are made Righteous/Just Rom 5:19, and so it is promised that the Just shall live by Faith, hence being made Just/Righteous is antecedent to Living by Faith ! 18

Bruce_Leiter · May 27, 2023

brightfame52 said:

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others..Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly..

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly..

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

tresspasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it..

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace..Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condtion we are in by nature when we are Justified before God..

We believers are the ungodly God justifies when we first believe.

brightfame52 · May 27, 2023

Bruce_Leiter said:

False

brightfame52 · May 28, 2023

What about Justification by Faith ?

Understand something, Justification by Faith is part of Salvation, but it occurs when the already Justified ones by the blood of Christ Rom 5:9 are made conscious of it, so that they apprehend it by God given Faith, that Christ alone by His Perfect Obedience Justified them, for it is written Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The righteous servant here is Christ, and by Him bearing the sins of many, He Justified them, and this Justification accomplished by His bearing their sins is revealed to born again faith so that they which are born again by the Spirit may apprehend it, hence then they become Justified by Faith.

But now, if we believe or teach that ones Justification before God depends upon ones apprehending it by Faith, we then fall from Justification by Grace/or the Blood of Christ, to Justification by works, by something we did. The scripture teaches that all that believe are Justified Acts 13:39, which means of course, the believing is the fruit and result and follows after having already been Justified by the blood of Christ, and so God given Faith apprehends what Christ alone has done for them by bearing their sins ! 18

brightfame52 · Jun 1, 2023

Justification by the blood/obedience of Christ.

Rom 5:8-9

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Those whom Christ died for were Justified by His Blood !

This is a truth that the natural mind of man cannot receive, its foolishness to him 1 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

By Christ's death alone/shedding of His blood, those He died for, have before God, been made righteous, declared not guilty, or justified, thats what His Resurrection declares to be true Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for [because of]our offences, and was raised again for [because of]our justification.

This justification did not occur because of ones believing, receiving, or faith, no its apart from those things, and based solely upon the blood of Christ !

Rom 5:19 states it quite plainly, that by the sole obedience of ONE, not two or three, but ONE, that One being Jesus Christ, many SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS !

This is the antithesis to the truth that by the disobedience of one, that being adam, many were made sinners Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
shall many be made righteous.

Those men in adam in the beginning were made sinners solely by adams act of disobedience even before they had any physical existence or being.

And so it is likewise those men in Christ [chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4] by His sole act of obedience, shall be made righteous, before they have a being or any physical existence !

reneweddaybyday · Jun 4, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... brightfame52, the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, the whole world:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

brightfame52 said:

your claim that God's "Divine Purpose failed !" is wholly without merit. You blame God for actions taken by those who reject Him. Lay the blame at the feet of those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) just as God tells us.

brightfame52 said:

The Righteous Servant ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... has knowledge of the truth written in vss 2-10 ... all of the truths that are relayed in those verses ... that He would be rejected and despised, wounded for the transgressions of all mankind, bruised for the iniquities of all mankind, chastised to bring peace to all mankind (for all mankind has gone astray) ... all the iniquities of all mankind laid on Him. He would be satisfied that He would be victorious in His service for He is the Righteous Servant.

His knowledge that God's eternal purpose for all mankind would justify the many who do not reject the the truth concerning Him ... those who turn to the Lord Jesus Christ are the many.

Barnes Notes on the Bible:

By his knowledge - That is, by the knowledge of him. The idea is, by becoming fully acquainted with him and his plan of salvation. The word knowledge here is evidently used in a large sense to denote all that constitutes acquaintance with him. Thus Paul says Philippians 3:10, 'That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection.' It is only by the knowledge of the Messiah; by an acquaintance with his character, doctrines, sufferings, death, and resurrection, that anyone can be justified. Thus the Saviour says John 17:3, 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' People are to become acquainted with him; with his doctrines, and with his religion, or they can never be regarded and treated as righteous in the sight of a holy God.

brightfame52 said:

Does 1 Peter 2:24 say "They were justified by His stripes" ???

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Quit manipulating God's Word in your futile attempt to prop up your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

reneweddaybyday · Jun 4, 2023

brightfame52 said:

under your rendering, if a person is "made conscious of it", faith (believing) is passive. However, we know from Scripture that faith (believing) is an active verb:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth (verb, active) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth (verb, active) on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not (verb, active) is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The words "believeth" / "believeth not" are active verbs which means the person either believes or believes not what he or she hears when truth is revealed to him or her ... iow the person either actively believes or actively does not believe ... not, as you erroneously claim a passive "made conscious".

Quit manipulating Scripture ... READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

brightfame52 said:

... more of your manipulation of Scripture whereby the person does not need to actively believe. Scripture is very clear that faith (believing) is an active verb.

God tells us exactly what occurs:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe [verb, active] on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

righteousness is imputed [verb, passive] when a person believes [verb, active].

brightfame52 said:

... another of your misnomers due to your rejection of what is written in Scripture, namely, that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:3 tells us righteousness is imputed when a person believes.

Romans 4:4-5 tell us faith ≠ works. For you to continue to insist that faith is some sort of "work" on the part of man is nothing but you trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.
.

Magenta · Jun 4, 2023

rogerg said:

Ah. So according to you, we are not saved by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ?

Because that is what I believe, and you claim I am wrong.

We are saved by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ.

I say that a LOT. It is Scriptural.

reneweddaybyday · Jun 4, 2023

brightfame52 said:

... more manipulation of Scripture. Why do you have such a problem with reading the verse exactly as written by the Author???

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In fact, Romans 5:18 makes it clear that all descendants of Adam are under condemnation and Romans 5:18 makes clear that the free gift came upon all descendants of Adam:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The only reason all descendants of Adam will not escape the lake of fire is that some reject that which God has so freely provided.
.

rogerg · Jun 4, 2023

Magenta said:

You believe that we're saved by who's faith?

rogerg · Jun 4, 2023

Magenta said:

We are saved by the faith of Christ and not by any faith that we may invoke. Christ's faith is reckoned as a gift to those whom He has chosen to salvation from before the foundation of the world, by which have we become justified. Only his faith has righteousness. The faith of man is unrighteous and therefore cannot bring salvation - only Christ's can. After justification, from/by His (reckoned) faith do we believe. Is that your understanding also?

[1Pe 1:20-21 KJV]
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Phl 1:29 KJV]
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

[Rom 4:9 KJV]
9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

brightfame52 · Jun 5, 2023

reneweddaybyday said:

... brightfame52, the Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, the whole world:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

your claim that God's "Divine Purpose failed !" is wholly without merit. You blame God for actions taken by those who reject Him. Lay the blame at the feet of those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) just as God tells us.

The Righteous Servant ... the Lord Jesus Christ ... has knowledge of the truth written in vss 2-10 ... all of the truths that are relayed in those verses ... that He would be rejected and despised, wounded for the transgressions of all mankind, bruised for the iniquities of all mankind, chastised to bring peace to all mankind (for all mankind has gone astray) ... all the iniquities of all mankind laid on Him. He would be satisfied that He would be victorious in His service for He is the Righteous Servant.

His knowledge that God's eternal purpose for all mankind would justify the many who do not reject the the truth concerning Him ... those who turn to the Lord Jesus Christ are the many.

Barnes Notes on the Bible:

By his knowledge - That is, by the knowledge of him. The idea is, by becoming fully acquainted with him and his plan of salvation. The word knowledge here is evidently used in a large sense to denote all that constitutes acquaintance with him. Thus Paul says Philippians 3:10, 'That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection.' It is only by the knowledge of the Messiah; by an acquaintance with his character, doctrines, sufferings, death, and resurrection, that anyone can be justified. Thus the Saviour says John 17:3, 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.' People are to become acquainted with him; with his doctrines, and with his religion, or they can never be regarded and treated as righteous in the sight of a holy God.

Does 1 Peter 2:24 say "They were justified by His stripes" ???

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Quit manipulating God's Word in your futile attempt to prop up your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

The people for whom Jesus Christ died, by His death alone it Justified them before God. You deny this you are in unbelief.

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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