I visited a church I grew up in today with my dad, stepfather and daughter. The pastor briefly mentioned something in his sermon that my stepfather and dad (both saved like me) strongly disagreed with: "Sins are never forgiven. Ever. "The pastor didn't elaborate and simply went on with the rest of his message on not conforming with the world as stated in Romans.
I thought about the comment since I never considered that point before, and decided that the claim is actually true after some scriptures started coming to mind that I believe support it.
After church we went to lunch and I brought the statement up to hear what they had to say. After I tried to explain my position, my stepfather and dad still strongly rejected the idea. They believe that the sin itself is forgiven, and when I asked how God does that, I was told that He simply remembers it no more. To me, that's an incorrect interpretation of Hebrews 8:12 since that verse refers to God intentionally forgetting our sin AFTER it is dealt with, not before.
Besides, the bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 that a saved person's righteous and sinful acts in life are tested by the fire of the Holy Spirit at the in the afterlife by which we will be either be rewarded or suffer loss for each instance. Clearly (to me) this means that God doesn't forget our sins until after this event takes place (which is just before heaven and hell are populated).
Anyway, here are verses that came to mind that I believe supports the pastor's position that sins are not forgiven. He didn't say this explicitly, but the way I see it, people are the ones who can be forgiven if they accept it, but sins have to be dealt with.
~~~
First, the law of the Lord declares that there is only one response to any sin we commit:
So death is the only response God has for dealing with sin, ANY sin, period. Here's a verse that shows how aggressive the Lord is at doing just that:
From that it is clear that all the Lord pours out his wrath against ALL sin. That means all sinners are subject to eternal separation from Him (the "second" death) unless there is a worthy substitute to die in our place. That voluntary substitute (called "propitiation" in the bible) is Jesus who knew no sin of His own:
So Jesus paid the price of death for all of our sins, including those who never accept His gift of salvation. The bible goes on to say this:
This is key! My sin and the sins of everyone else don't just disappear because of forgiveness. Jesus bore them all, and the wrath of God mentioned above was poured out on Him in my place and yours because He became our sin!
Sin is not simply forgotten by a holy God. The law demands a penalty of death, and the Lord is a perfect Judge who follows the law He created. He cannot just ignore it. If sin wasn't dealt with by death, then the law is broken. That is why Jesus died for us... to fulfill the law. According to Matthew 5:17, fulfilling the law was His primary mission for coming to dwell among us. The verse immediately afterwards, IMO, let's us know that the law cannot be fulfilled until everything the law addresses, including sin, is dealt with:
One more verse that clearly shows that it isn't sin that is forgiven, but forgiveness is instead extended to those who have accepted that free gift Christ offers because He paid for it on the cross:
The emphasis is mine. No, Jesus is not faithful and just to forgive our sins, according to the bible. He is faithful and just to forgive US our sins. I was told at lunch that my position is simply semantics, but I believe that word "us" makes a difference and said if it wasn't there, I would agree with their position. It seems obvious to me that forgiveness is extended to people, not to the sin itself. All committed sin is removed from a saved person's account in God's eyes because Jesus already suffered for those sins.
The sins don't just disappear because a false understanding of how God applies forgiveness. They have to be dealt with first according to the law (someone has to die) and ONLY THEN will the Lord forget about them forever.
So what do you all think?
I thought about the comment since I never considered that point before, and decided that the claim is actually true after some scriptures started coming to mind that I believe support it.
After church we went to lunch and I brought the statement up to hear what they had to say. After I tried to explain my position, my stepfather and dad still strongly rejected the idea. They believe that the sin itself is forgiven, and when I asked how God does that, I was told that He simply remembers it no more. To me, that's an incorrect interpretation of Hebrews 8:12 since that verse refers to God intentionally forgetting our sin AFTER it is dealt with, not before.
Besides, the bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 that a saved person's righteous and sinful acts in life are tested by the fire of the Holy Spirit at the in the afterlife by which we will be either be rewarded or suffer loss for each instance. Clearly (to me) this means that God doesn't forget our sins until after this event takes place (which is just before heaven and hell are populated).
Anyway, here are verses that came to mind that I believe supports the pastor's position that sins are not forgiven. He didn't say this explicitly, but the way I see it, people are the ones who can be forgiven if they accept it, but sins have to be dealt with.
~~~
First, the law of the Lord declares that there is only one response to any sin we commit:
Genesis 2:16-17 (NASB95)
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
So death is the only response God has for dealing with sin, ANY sin, period. Here's a verse that shows how aggressive the Lord is at doing just that:
Romans 1:18 (NASB95)
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness"
From that it is clear that all the Lord pours out his wrath against ALL sin. That means all sinners are subject to eternal separation from Him (the "second" death) unless there is a worthy substitute to die in our place. That voluntary substitute (called "propitiation" in the bible) is Jesus who knew no sin of His own:
1 John 2:2 (NASB95)
"...and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
So Jesus paid the price of death for all of our sins, including those who never accept His gift of salvation. The bible goes on to say this:
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB95)
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
This is key! My sin and the sins of everyone else don't just disappear because of forgiveness. Jesus bore them all, and the wrath of God mentioned above was poured out on Him in my place and yours because He became our sin!
Isaiah 53:5 (NKJV)
"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."
Sin is not simply forgotten by a holy God. The law demands a penalty of death, and the Lord is a perfect Judge who follows the law He created. He cannot just ignore it. If sin wasn't dealt with by death, then the law is broken. That is why Jesus died for us... to fulfill the law. According to Matthew 5:17, fulfilling the law was His primary mission for coming to dwell among us. The verse immediately afterwards, IMO, let's us know that the law cannot be fulfilled until everything the law addresses, including sin, is dealt with:
Matthew 5:18 (NASB95)
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished"
One more verse that clearly shows that it isn't sin that is forgiven, but forgiveness is instead extended to those who have accepted that free gift Christ offers because He paid for it on the cross:
1 John 1:9 (KJV)
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive US our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
The emphasis is mine. No, Jesus is not faithful and just to forgive our sins, according to the bible. He is faithful and just to forgive US our sins. I was told at lunch that my position is simply semantics, but I believe that word "us" makes a difference and said if it wasn't there, I would agree with their position. It seems obvious to me that forgiveness is extended to people, not to the sin itself. All committed sin is removed from a saved person's account in God's eyes because Jesus already suffered for those sins.
The sins don't just disappear because a false understanding of how God applies forgiveness. They have to be dealt with first according to the law (someone has to die) and ONLY THEN will the Lord forget about them forever.
So what do you all think?
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