Works Complete Faith?

Another .02
May I suggest, it's my understanding that this misconception goes all the way back to Martin Luther. When ML saw what the RCC required to pay for sin, he saw the glaring error that those "works" were not found nor required in scripture. I'm not real familiar with what the RCC requires to pay for sins but I did find this about indulgences and indulgences was a big one for ML. 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

The works of the RCC were the works ML was talking about, not the works done in righteousness. I feel the mistake comes when we try and lump ALL works into works. We cannot love without works.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

We are NOT saved BY works but we are not saved without them (faith alone). Works merely complete faith.
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

Additionally, that Greek word for "'faith' of Jesus Christ" is the same word for "faithfulness", and it is apparent that "faithfulness" is the correct interpretation in that verse--ie, "faithfulness of Jesus Christ", not "faith of Jesus Christ".

Oh... another one of those verses that is commonly wrenched from its context (and therefore mis-applied)...



... here is what I've put in old posts--a couple of the shorter ones, anyway, endeavoring to explain the context of 2 Corinthians 13:5 :


[quoting old posts]

[quoting various posts I've made on that]

2 Corinthians 10-13 (at least that entire section... and really the entire epistle) is in the context of Paul vindicating his apostleship.

In the passage you refer to [2Cor13:5], he is saying, "don't simply test me [and judge me as a non-apostle as compared to the high-talkin' impressive guys you're tempted to "follow" instead], test your own selves and see whether you are in THE FAITH... because if you are [and you know you are--note: he *knows* this is their internal response, and is using this as part of his argument/defense/reasoning to make the point, which is-->], then I, who imparted these truths to you, am indeed a genuine apostle... even though you are inclined to think otherwise [coz I'm somewhat of a weak unimpressive speaker, so to speak, and not much to look at--2Cor10:1,7a, esp.v.10, etc]."



The passage has nothing to do with some certain-level-standard of "good works" they were to discover, and test themselves against, in order to tell whether or not they were "still saved," or "on the verge of losing it," or "part-way gone, and 1/4 of the way-to-go, gone," or maybe "90%-still-ON-TARGET-but-with-A-LITTLE-MORE-EFFORT-can-get-probably-still-make-it!," etc. [NO!]



[and... another post]


They are questioning Paul's apostleship, and he is responding with the "proof of it"... THEM (the-saved/Christ-in-them... unless they are willing to say He's not in them--NOT!). He's saying, don't merely test me (my apostleship, or lack thereof--in their view), test THE PROOF of it! --->YOU, YOURSELVES! (are the proof!!)



THIS is the context / setting of the words in v.5 (commonly misapplied / misunderstood).





[end quoting old posts]

Right.

How about in the following verse (has someone already brought up this one, in this thread??):

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [en] the faith/faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved [participle] me, and gave [participle] himself for me." - Gal2:20





At what point is "the faithfulness of the Son of God" no longer in effect?

Another .02
May I suggest, it's my understanding that this misconception goes all the way back to Martin Luther. When ML saw what the RCC required to pay for sin, he saw the glaring error that those "works" were not found nor required in scripture. I'm not real familiar with what the RCC requires to pay for sins but I did find this about indulgences and indulgences was a big one for ML. 1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

The works of the RCC were the works ML was talking about, not the works done in righteousness. I feel the mistake comes when we try and lump ALL works into works. We cannot love without works.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

We are NOT saved BY works but we are not saved without them (faith alone). Works merely complete faith.
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

romans113336 said:
James 2
22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected;

So this is what I am talking about -----your taking a piece of Scripture OUT OF CONTEXT AND WITH NO UNDERSTANDING OF IT __-you just assume that Deeds Complete Faith -----and you are so wrong ---

Now I don't expect you to understand this as you apparently have no Spiritual discernment ----but maybe others will benefit from the Scripture in Context -------

This is the Scripture -----in context -----James 2

I say -----
So we see here -------------If your claiming to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN --who has the Right Faith --- ---and you don't act ---then your a False christian -------and you cannot be Saved ------with this Faith -----you can do all the works you want but you are still a False christian ----hell bound -----your works mean nothing ----

James 2

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition.

14 What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?

I say ---------Notice ---
it says ---for anyone profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?-----

Works Show your Faith ----
No where here does it say Works complete Faith -------

if Works completed Faith then you could be saved by doing the works ----which completes your Faith ----which is wrong Doctrine ----it is backwards

View attachment 256339


verse
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clad and lacks food for each day,

16 And one of you says to him, Good-bye! Keep [yourself] warm and well fed, without giving him the necessities for the body, what good does that do?

17 So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead).


I say -------The Right Faith will prompt the person to be obedient to God --------
So Works back up Faith --it says Nothing about Works Completing Faith


18 But someone will say [to you then], You [say you] have faith, and I have [good] works.
Now you show me your [alleged] faith apart from any [good] works [if you can], and I by [good] works [of obedience] will show you my faith.

I say ---------so we see there are 2 people here ---1 has faith the other has Good works --------Notice Good in brackets ------this says that this person is a true Christian ---and is in obedience to God so this person has the Right Faith -----and the obedience is SHOWING HIS FAITH -----

NOTHING ABOUT WORKS COMPLETING FAITH -

:-So by saying that works Complete Faith ---

Your Implying ----------that God's Word is imperfect in supplying His Right Faith in us to be saved and we must do works to complete our Faith --------which is Ridiculous -----No works are required to be saved -Faith is required as small as a mustard seed -----nothing about Works --------Our Faith is shown in this world by our GOOD WORKS ------

The Act of going church won't Perfect your Faith to be saved -----

There is not one Scripture that says Works COMPLETES Faith ------so far in this Scripture


19 You believe that God is one; you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder [in terror and horror such as [a]make a man’s hair stand on end and contract the surface of his skin]!

20 Are you willing to be shown [proof], you foolish (unproductive, spiritually deficient) fellow, that faith apart from [good] works is inactive and ineffective and worthless?


The next 2 verses here go together

21 Was not our forefather Abraham [shown to be] justified (made acceptable to God) by [his] works when he brought to the altar as an offering his [own] son Isaac?

22 You see that [his] faith was cooperating with his works, and [his] faith was completed and reached its supreme expression [when he implemented it] by [good] works.

I say ---So you see here --verses 21 and 22 go together ----Faith and Works were cooperating with together ----as the right faith requires a Positive response --------Abraham had already Faith in God and trusted God enough to be obedient to take his son Isaac and do as God said -----by Abraham's obedience He was Showing His Faith in God -------

Posting a couple of scriptures from other Bibles to show you the truth ------verse 22

Berean Standard Bible
22-You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
22 You see that Abraham's faith and what he did worked together. His faith was shown to be genuine by what he did.

23 And [so] the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed in (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on) God, and this was accounted to him as righteousness (as conformity to God’s will in thought and deed), and he was called God’s friend.

24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].

I say
Posting from AmpBible verse 24 ------to show you that the act of obedience REVEALS Faith ------Nothing about completing it ------REVEALS it -----

Amplified Bible
You see that a man (believer) is justified by works and not by faith alone [that is, by acts of obedience a born-again believer reveals his faith].

I say --------if works perfect Faith as you say ---then it did nothing for this person -----as she had the wrong Faith and no works could save her ------

25 So also with Rahab the harlot—was she not shown to be justified (pronounced righteous before God) by [good] deeds when she took in the scouts (spies) and sent them away by a different route?

26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.


Better read Hebrews 11 ----all of it ----By Faith ----these people obeyed ------Faith

Faith in Action ------
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country;

11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise.

NOTHING HERE SAYING ___WORKS PERFECTED THEIR FAITH ------God faith is perfect -already ----works accompany God's Faith --------Works show our perfected Faith -----

Oh... another one of those verses that is commonly wrenched from its context (and therefore mis-applied)...



... here is what I've put in old posts--a couple of the shorter ones, anyway, endeavoring to explain the context of 2 Corinthians 13:5 :


[quoting old posts]

[quoting various posts I've made on that]

2 Corinthians 10-13 (at least that entire section... and really the entire epistle) is in the context of Paul vindicating his apostleship.

In the passage you refer to [2Cor13:5], he is saying, "don't simply test me [and judge me as a non-apostle as compared to the high-talkin' impressive guys you're tempted to "follow" instead], test your own selves and see whether you are in THE FAITH... because if you are [and you know you are--note: he *knows* this is their internal response, and is using this as part of his argument/defense/reasoning to make the point, which is-->], then I, who imparted these truths to you, am indeed a genuine apostle... even though you are inclined to think otherwise [coz I'm somewhat of a weak unimpressive speaker, so to speak, and not much to look at--2Cor10:1,7a, esp.v.10, etc]."



The passage has nothing to do with some certain-level-standard of "good works" they were to discover, and test themselves against, in order to tell whether or not they were "still saved," or "on the verge of losing it," or "part-way gone, and 1/4 of the way-to-go, gone," or maybe "90%-still-ON-TARGET-but-with-A-LITTLE-MORE-EFFORT-can-get-probably-still-make-it!," etc. [NO!]



[and... another post]


They are questioning Paul's apostleship, and he is responding with the "proof of it"... THEM (the-saved/Christ-in-them... unless they are willing to say He's not in them--NOT!). He's saying, don't merely test me (my apostleship, or lack thereof--in their view), test THE PROOF of it! --->YOU, YOURSELVES! (are the proof!!)



THIS is the context / setting of the words in v.5 (commonly misapplied / misunderstood).





[end quoting old posts]

The "finished work of Jesus" confuses me. I have never read in God's word where a single NT writer tells us about the "finished work", I only hear it from man.

O
We're saved, we're being saved, we will be saved--all tenses exist in Scripture, so I believe them all.

But only if you work hard enough at it. Right?

But only if you work hard enough at it. Right?

I'm unleavened, righteous, as a gift--now I'm called to walk joyfully in that freedom, doing only things I'm fully convinced are correct, not after the flesh, doing things I doubt, in which case I am condemned (Ro 14:23), and, if that's my pattern of behavior, it will result in death not life (Ro 8:12,13) when I'm judged (Ro 2:6-16). If it is apparent I have let some old leaven in, I'm to purge it out and instead walk as what I truly am, spiritually--unleavened.

Sounds positively pharisaical. Your exorbitant self description that is.

You asked, I answered what i believe is true of ANY Christian.

You answer the way you do, finding fault where there is none (actually, kind of like a Pharisee, ironically), because you're frustrated that what I'm saying is unassailable.

Unassailable? Well that is quite a bold statement. But false.
@TheDivineWatermark was the unassailable commentator who corrected your folly at every encounter.
Same goes for Chronister. But Chronister absolutely destroys your position root and branch.
I submitted a few useful inputs as well, humble though they may be.

James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance, just as Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened". James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification--Paul does, too (Ro 2:6-16; Ro 14:5,23), but people have this odd fixation with only one of his doctrines, as if it is mutually exclusive with the rest of his doctrines on the topic. Again if I had to choose an error of overemphasis, I'd choose faith alone, but why not just believe all his doctrines?

Your Quote Here ----from Jame 4

James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance,---James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification

I say
So again --you are wrong here ----If they have the right faith then they are justified by God and would have already repented ------your ignorance of Scripture is showing -----actually James is addressing unbelievers -----

the Book of James -----the audience is ---

To whom was it written and why?
James addressed his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (James 1:1), meaning all the house of Israel; he was inviting them to “receive the gospel … [and] come into the fold of Christ”

James 1

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad [among the Gentiles in the dispersion]: Greetings ([a]rejoice)!

I say
So here we see that James is speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel ------these are from the Jewish Nation ------that are God

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and so they have not the right Faith to be saved ------their faith lies in keeping the law and that is dead faith ------which James talks about in james 2 ----

Again you think you know what your saying is right ----but that won't cut the mustard ---with discerning Spiritual Truth -----the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give you Spiritual discernment to know the truth of the Scripture -----

Your Quote here

Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened".

No --Paul is not calling the Corinthians to Repent here -----He is calling them to rebuke a member of the Church who has committed the sin of incest and the Church has allowed this person to remain in the Church ---so Paul is using the statement you quote here saying if you allow a member who has sinned in the Church to remain
it can ruin the whole lump -----

So this passage you quote is about judgment and their lack of it -------it is not about repentance -----as you say

This is what this says ---1 Corinthians 5:7

https://www.bibleref.com/1-Corinthians/5/1-Corinthians-5-7.html#:~:text=ESV Cleanse out the old,--as you really are.

Paul details a grievous sin: the believers in Corinth have failed to rebuke a member who is committing incest with his father's wife. They must remove him from the church and turn him over to Satan in hopes of his ultimate salvation. This is also crucial for the health of the church—just as tiny bits of leaven eventually spread to an entire batch of dough, sin left unconfronted can poison an entire church.

So again your assumption is wrong -----


So lets go to your Romans 2: --

It is about God's Judgment ---and being a hypocrite ----- Paul here is talking to the religious Jews --who have rejected Jesus and who if they don't repent will stand before God judged on their works of the law ---which they can't keep ---and who are judging others when they commit the same sins ----

So Paul is not talking about beliebers here ---He is addressing ----unbelievers

Romans 2:
God's Righteous Judgment. Romans 2 is written to admonish the Jews that living by the law and circumcision does not make them righteous in God's eyes. This comes as quite a shock, but Paul stresses that living by rules and regulations only brings about judgment and condemnation.



Romans 14
Chapter Context
Paul turns from the black-and-white instructions about light and darkness in Romans 13 to the issue of disputable matters with the potential to divide the church. Paul instructs those who feel free to participate in activities formally forbidden under the law not to flaunt their freedom in front of those who, by conscience, still believe those actions to be wrong. Those strong-faith Christians should be willing to set aside their freedom to keep from leading their weaker brothers and sisters into sin by violating their convictions. Paul addresses this topic with additional comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.

I say -----So where you get this chapter 14 is about Repentance --I don't know ---as again it is about Judgment -----and not to argue with each other -----

Your Quote Here ----from Jame 4

James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance,---James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification

I say
So again --you are wrong here ----If they have the right faith then they are justified by God and would have already repented ------your ignorance of Scripture is showing -----actually James is addressing unbelievers -----

the Book of James -----the audience is ---
To whom was it written and why?
James addressed his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (James 1:1), meaning all the house of Israel; he was inviting them to “receive the gospel … [and] come into the fold of Christ”

James 1

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad [among the Gentiles in the dispersion]: Greetings ([a]rejoice)!

I say
So here we see that James is speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel ------these are from the Jewish Nation ------

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and so they have not the right Faith to be saved ------their faith lies in keeping the law and that is dead faith ------which James talks about in james 2 ----

Again you think you know what your saying is right ----but that won't cut the mustard ---with discerning Spiritual Truth -----the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give you Spiritual discernment to know the truth of the Scripture -----

Your Quote here

Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened".

No --Paul is not calling the Corinthians to Repent here -----He is calling them to rebuke a member of the Church who has committed the sin of incest and the Church has allowed this person to remain in the Church ---so Paul is using the statement you quote here saying if you allow a member who has sinned in the Church to remain
it can ruin the whole lump -----

So this passage you quote is about judgment and their lack of it -------it is not about repentance -----as you say

This is what this says ---1 Corinthians 5:7

https://www.bibleref.com/1-Corinthians/5/1-Corinthians-5-7.html#:~:text=ESV Cleanse out the old,--as you really are.

Paul details a grievous sin: the believers in Corinth have failed to rebuke a member who is committing incest with his father's wife. They must remove him from the church and turn him over to Satan in hopes of his ultimate salvation. This is also crucial for the health of the church—just as tiny bits of leaven eventually spread to an entire batch of dough, sin left unconfronted can poison an entire church.

So again your assumption is wrong -----

So lets go to your Romans 2: --

It is about God's Judgment ---and being a hypocrite ----- Paul here is talking to the religious Jews --who have rejected Jesus and who if they don't repent will stand before God judged on their works of the law ---which they can't keep ---and who are judging others when they commit the same sins ----

So Paul is not talking about beliebers here ---He is addressing ----unbelievers

Romans 2:
God's Righteous Judgment. Romans 2 is written to admonish the Jews that living by the law and circumcision does not make them righteous in God's eyes. This comes as quite a shock, but Paul stresses that living by rules and regulations only brings about judgment and condemnation.

Romans 14
Chapter Context
Paul turns from the black-and-white instructions about light and darkness in Romans 13 to the issue of disputable matters with the potential to divide the church. Paul instructs those who feel free to participate in activities formally forbidden under the law not to flaunt their freedom in front of those who, by conscience, still believe those actions to be wrong. Those strong-faith Christians should be willing to set aside their freedom to keep from leading their weaker brothers and sisters into sin by violating their convictions. Paul addresses this topic with additional comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.


I say -----So where you get this chapter 14 is about Repentance --I don't know ---as again it is about Judgment -----and not to argue with each other -----

Right.

How about in the following verse (has someone already brought up this one, in this thread??):

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [en] the faith/faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved [participle] me, and gave [participle] himself for me." - Gal2:20





At what point is "the faithfulness of the Son of God" no longer in effect?

Your Quote Here ----from Jame 4

James knows his audience has true faith (he calls them "adulteresses" against God--he knows they're "married" to Him by faith), he's just calling them to repentance,---James addresses believers' ongoing and final justification

I say
So again --you are wrong here ----If they have the right faith then they are justified by God and would have already repented ------your ignorance of Scripture is showing -----actually James is addressing unbelievers -----

the Book of James -----the audience is ---

To whom was it written and why?
James addressed his letter “to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad” (James 1:1), meaning all the house of Israel; he was inviting them to “receive the gospel … [and] come into the fold of Christ”

James 1

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes scattered abroad [among the Gentiles in the dispersion]: Greetings ([a]rejoice)!

I say
So here we see that James is speaking to the 12 tribes of Israel ------these are from the Jewish Nation ------

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and so they have not the right Faith to be saved ------their faith lies in keeping the law and that is dead faith ------which James talks about in james 2 ----

Again you think you know what your saying is right ----but that won't cut the mustard ---with discerning Spiritual Truth -----the Holy Spirit is the only one who can give you Spiritual discernment to know the truth of the Scripture -----

Your Quote here

Paul called the Corinthians to repentance, saying, "Purge out the old leaven, for you are unleavened".

No --Paul is not calling the Corinthians to Repent here -----He is calling them to rebuke a member of the Church who has committed the sin of incest and the Church has allowed this person to remain in the Church ---so Paul is using the statement you quote here saying if you allow a member who has sinned in the Church to remain
it can ruin the whole lump -----

So this passage you quote is about judgment and their lack of it -------it is not about repentance -----as you say

This is what this says ---1 Corinthians 5:7

https://www.bibleref.com/1-Corinthians/5/1-Corinthians-5-7.html#:~:text=ESV Cleanse out the old,--as you really are.

Paul details a grievous sin: the believers in Corinth have failed to rebuke a member who is committing incest with his father's wife. They must remove him from the church and turn him over to Satan in hopes of his ultimate salvation. This is also crucial for the health of the church—just as tiny bits of leaven eventually spread to an entire batch of dough, sin left unconfronted can poison an entire church.

So again your assumption is wrong -----


So lets go to your Romans 2: --

It is about God's Judgment ---and being a hypocrite ----- Paul here is talking to the religious Jews --who have rejected Jesus and who if they don't repent will stand before God judged on their works of the law ---which they can't keep ---and who are judging others when they commit the same sins ----

So Paul is not talking about beliebers here ---He is addressing ----unbelievers

Romans 2:
God's Righteous Judgment. Romans 2 is written to admonish the Jews that living by the law and circumcision does not make them righteous in God's eyes. This comes as quite a shock, but Paul stresses that living by rules and regulations only brings about judgment and condemnation.



Romans 14
Chapter Context
Paul turns from the black-and-white instructions about light and darkness in Romans 13 to the issue of disputable matters with the potential to divide the church. Paul instructs those who feel free to participate in activities formally forbidden under the law not to flaunt their freedom in front of those who, by conscience, still believe those actions to be wrong. Those strong-faith Christians should be willing to set aside their freedom to keep from leading their weaker brothers and sisters into sin by violating their convictions. Paul addresses this topic with additional comments in 1 Corinthians chapter 10.

I say -----So where you get this chapter 14 is about Repentance --I don't know ---as again it is about Judgment -----and not to argue with each other -----