Daniel 9 Already Fulfilled

If you "whittle it down a bit"...


- then, you get what I was hoping you would post initially before you went into a long explanation of it...

In my view, the "fearful sights and great signs" begin to occur within the 3.5 years preceding the Second Coming of Christ. I do not believe the idea of "more" fearful sights, etc. - it is all aligned together during this 3.5-year period of time - which we call the [time of the] 'Two Witnesses'.

Who is the ROOT of Israel? Who is now tied into that root and who is not? Those branches can be grafted back in, and I who am grafted in now have NO reason to boast, but it's the roots that support us and Israel is no longer a matter of the flesh, but a matter of spirit. Jesus the ONLY way to reconcile us to Himself, He came through Israel on time and as promised in fulfillment of His word. This lines right on up with what Jesus told them then, that ALL those things took place before the end of THAT generation.

This whole conversation was also talking about the end of an age, they're not even talking about the end of the physical world here.

What I am trying to help you understand - but, hopefully putting it a nice [enough] way so as to minimize offense - is - [I believe] your writing style encourages most folks to not bother to read it.

If you want folks to take a greater interest in your posted content, you are going to have to "clean up" the presentation a bit so that it is not so difficult to follow.

More than most folks - I can follow what you are saying - when I feel like making the effort - which is not always. Sometimes I just ignore your posts and keep reading because [at that time] I do not feel like making the effort that is sometimes necessary to obtain a proper-and-sufficient understanding of what you wrote.

Of course, you know that I do the same type of thing also - to a point. However, I do try to make my posts as reasonably "presentable" as I can.

Please do not be offended [too much ] by what I am saying - I really am [just] trying to help you. And, there is one thing I hope you never forget - I really do appreciate the 'attitude' that you take - 'discussing' not 'arguing' - focused on the topic and not mudslinging, etc. - it really does make a difference. So - I really appreciate your approach "more than you know"...

I would not want to so much as hurt your feelings. I am [just] "telling it like it is" - hopefully, ultimately, for your benefit.

(And, everyone else... )

I know different people have different things they have to deal with. It takes me "forever" sometimes to write [some] posts. I understand.

I will try to be patient. But, the reality exists. And, you are the only one who can "make the difference"...

It's all good, brother - no worries...

Thank you for whatever consideration you may decide to give to what I have said.

Yes - it helps to understand that no part of Daniel 9 refers to any/the "end of the [physical] world"; rather, it is talking about the end of the 'Times of the Jews' - as defined/discussed on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

This is how a lot of Christians go into Replacement Theology. They do not even study the prophecies concerning a redeemed and restored Israel in the future (when those from each tribe will be saved and settled in their own land).

What you are talking about is the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body). But what we are talking about is Israel on earth after the Second Coming of Christ. God has a plan and purpose for BOTH entities, and Replacement Theology is invalid. So kindly study all the OT prophets.

There is such a thing as "the fulness of the Gentiles". IOW there is a specific number of Gentiles who will be a part of the Church. Following that the entire Church will be raptured. Following that God and Christ will resume their direct dealings with all the Jews worldwide.

Yes. In the millennium the promise will be fulfilled. The resurrected Christian Jews will rule over the area of the planet defined in Ezekiel. But not before the return of Jesus.

"Oh yes we absolutely can!"

Inasmuch as we believe God when He said that He would preserve His word - and, inasmuch as we believe that those who He chose to do it had a superlative understanding of all of the languages and knew exactly what the proper punctuation should be in English - yes, we absolutely can.

The writers of the KJV were the-best-of-the-best in their time. And, the way they went about confirming a proper translation was a superior method.

God knew what He was doing. The writers of the KJV knew what they were doing.

The 'grammar of the language' is the "first basis" requirement for proper interpretation of scripture. If you cannot trust the way the translated language was/is written - punctuation included - you are missing something comparable to the 'body language' that is missing in environments such as this one.

In the English language, punctuation is very important.

One of the things that throw people off concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel is not realizing that "7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week" (3 chronological divisions, end-to-end but separate) is not what is being communicated in Daniel 9:25-27. As strange as this may sound, it does not work that way. There is a half-week "shift" between the 69 weeks of verse 25 and the 62 weeks of verse 26.

From http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html :

Grammatically speaking, the phrase 'seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks' in verse 25 cannot be "dismantled" so that - in the next verse - 62 weeks can be added to the 7 weeks at the beginning of this phrase. With regard to "counting", the phrase must be taken and understood as simply 69 weeks.

The phrase 'unto the Messiah the Prince' in verse 25 is referring to the 'arrival' of Jesus (as being identified as the Messiah) during the First Coming of Christ. The end of the 69 weeks of verse 25 points to this moment in time (at His baptism, when God identifies Him as the Messiah).

The words 'And after' in verse 26 refer back to the last part of verse 25 (after the colon) as the beginning of the counting of the 62 weeks.

A proper understanding of the end of verse 25 is critical to obtaining a proper understanding of the 62 weeks in verse 26. It represents and refers to the end of the rebuilding of the city, which was 52 years after the decree went forth to rebuild the city - which places the start of the 62 weeks in the middle of the 8th week - and the end of the 62 weeks in the middle of the 70th week.

The "countdown" for the 62 weeks starts at the end of the rebuilding of Jerusalem - not at the end of the 7th week.

If the 62 weeks of verse 26 were counted starting from the end of the 7th week, it would place 'shall Messiah be cut off' in verse 26 at the same point in time as 'unto the Messiah the Prince' in verse 25. This would have Him to be "cut off" at the same time that He 'arrives'. This makes no sense in the "bigger picture" of the First Coming of Christ - especially with regard to the time span of His ministry. The phrase 'unto the Messiah the Prince' points to the start of His ministry, and the phrase 'shall Messiah be cut off' points to the end of it.

~

At the end of the 483 years (69 weeks of years) was the 'arrival' point in time and not the 'cut off' point in time.

The ministry of Christ was during the first half of the 70th week. He was crucified in the middle of the 70th week.

Wasn't He identified as the "Christ" [i.e. Messiah] some 30 years earlier, in the passages below:

-- Luke 2:8-19 :

8And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. 13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
15And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us. 16And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child. 18And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. 19But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.



-- Luke 2:25-28 :

25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, 28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,



-- Matthew 2:1-11, when the Magi came [even] later :

1Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, 2Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. 3When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where [the] Christ should be born. [ https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/2-4.htm ]
5And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. ["out of thee"... see the wording in Micah 5:2, "out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel..."]
7Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. 8And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. 9When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. 10When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. 11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.




Now, I am not saying that THIS [any of these ^ passages] is when the "69 Weeks" were concluded;

I'm just making the point that He was identified as the Christ [/Messiah] some 30 years prior to His baptism;

...and, like I had stated in a previous post, regarding that baptism event, Dan9:25 just says "unto the Messiah the Prince," it doesn't saying "unto [the point] when His anointing takes place" or "unto His anointING [action]" (as though the event of His baptism is what the time-prophecy pointed to... I disagree that it is; Again, I do believe that the time-prophecy in Dan9:24-27 says, "____ are DETERMINED UPON "thy [Daniel's] people"... "AND UPON thy [Daniel's] holy city"... and the passages I placed in previous posts tie that all together perfectly, as well as "fitting" / connecting "time-wise," precisely... in many ways...)

There is no reconciliation for sin other than the crucifixion… nor will there be.

It appears you are making this miscalculation based on Daniel 9:27 Attributing what is spoken about the AC with Jesus. This is understandable, but very wrong.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (One week of yrs, 7yrs)
But in the middle of the week (Yes Jesus' earthly ministry was roughly 3.5 yrs, closer to just 3 really. I'm sure this is where you are getting your interpretation from. But the similarities end there.)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (If your interpretation was right, 3.5 yrs after His death and resurrection the animal sacrifices at the temple would have stopped. They did not until AD 70)
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

The previous verse in Daniel 9 fairly easily proves that it isn't Jesus Daniel is speaking about in that verse.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; (EVERYBODY agrees this is a reference to Jesus' Sacrificial death)
And the people of the prince who is to come ( Who are the people that destroyed the city and sanctuary? OBVIOUSLY the Romans. So the PRINCE must come from THOSE people that destroyed the city and sanctuary)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Paul writes of this SAME event in 2 Thessalonians 2.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

New King James Version

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

I know we can all sometimes be hardened in our doctrines that we have held for yrs. Trying to make passages harmonize. But please consider the above, and the possibility that you are wrong about that week of yrs, and who Daniel is talking about when he is referencing the prince who is to come FROM THE PEOPLE THAT DESTROTED THE CITY AND SANCTUARY.

Merry Christmas! Blessings to you and your family.

Was He not "identified" as the Christ in OT writings long before He was born?

What then stands as the most significant 'event' that may be attributed to 'Messiah the Prince'?

When was He first recognized to be in the role of 'Messiah the Prince'?

When He was a baby? No.

When He was 12 years old? No.

Answer: His annointing by the Father at His baptism - when he was 30 years old - when His ministry began.

No, brother - and, this is what I am trying to get you to understand - there is no 'antichrist' in these verses - 'he' x 3 is referring to Jesus.

No - 'the sacrifice and the oblation' (verse 27) ceased the very moment this happened:

Mark 15:

38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

However, everybody does not understand that this is aligned with the middle of the 70th week and not the end of the 69th week.

The end of the 69th week is aligned with the beginning of the ministry of Jesus. Count the years!

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

We are not in any disagreement about the 'people of the prince' statement.

Again, there is no disagreement here.

I suggest that the highlighed parts of these verses are referring/related to the events of circa 70 A.D. :

Daniel 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The 'cut off' statement and the 'midst of the week' statement are aligned together - they both refer to the time of His death on the cross.

There is no 'antichrist' in these verses.

It is all about Jesus at the First Coming of Christ.

Absolutely no part of it is about any events in our future.

And, this is what you need to be able to see clearly if you are going to correctly understand this passage of scripture.

It is "all about" the 'Times of the Jews' and the First Coming of Christ. There is absolutely nothing there that makes [even a] reference to anything beyond the events of circa 70 A.D.

At the end of the 70 weeks, the gospel went out to the gentiles via Paul. This marks the end of the 'Times of the Jews'.

And, it happened in 34 A.D. - the end of the 70 weeks. Count the years!

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

Remember - I was raised with the pre-trib rapture 7-year tribulation antichrist, etc. teaching. And, then I discovered the truth concerning what the passage was actually saying.

I suggest that it is the pre-trib crowd who are 'hardened' and absolutely refuse-at-all-costs to consider anything that "threatens" their POV. Will you please [seriously] consider the possibility that you were taught error (perhaps by the most well-meaning God-fearing folks; nonetheless, in error) and may need to "rethink this a bit"...?

You too, brother - to you and all of yours - have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Brother @PennEd - did you ever read this web page? :

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

You will find a more "full" explanation of this issue there...

Using our modern calendar for reference - if Jesus was born in September/October and crucified in March/April (6 months apart on the calendar) - and - if He wasted no time being about His Father's business when/after He became 30 years old --- how long was His ministry?

For what it is worth, brother - I agree with you that Israel has a future part to play in the Millennium - and that - sometimes, folks get confused concerning the 'Church' and the existence of the nation of Israel - after the Second Coming of Christ. However, none of this transpires until the Second Coming of Christ. It is Christ Himself Who will actually fulfil the dry bones prophecy.

Christ Himself will "deal" with the 'Jews' and 'Israel' when He comes.

And, the point I am making is - none of this will be happening during any tribulation period prior to the Second Coming of Christ. (i.e. - after He is "here to stay" - to set up His kingdom on earth.)

It is the appearance of Christ - or, at the very least, the Two Witnesses [before His appearance] - that will "turn the Jews to Christ" - as biblical prophecy states - whereby, "all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26). But, this is not a 'Great Tribulation' occurrance. The Two Witnesses is 'post-trib' according to the accounts of the Olivet Discourse.

I said all of that to say this - the 70th week of Daniel has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 'redeeming'/'restoring' of Israel at the Second Coming of Christ. So, there is no need to try to make it align with any future events.

The thing is true - I agree - Israel will [biblically] be a nation again (As you know, the current State of Israel is "politically valid for today" but not "true Israel" from a biblical standpoint.) - after the Second Coming of Christ - and/but not before.

The idea that "God and Christ will resume their direct dealings with all the Jews worldwide" - it is true - it will happen - it is simply not part of the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy. Nor does it need to be.

What you and others are trying to force-fit into the End Times Scenario does not even need to be there.

In terms of prophecy, the two are totally different - and, they do not "mix" at all in Bible prophecy.

The 70 weeks of Daniel are about the end of the old, past 'era' of Israel; the other is about a new, future 'era' of Israel.

Both are biblical - just not mixed in biblical prophecy.

I know in an earlier post you had said something (re: the "2W") about their "1260 days testimony / prophesying" happens in the space between / in the middle of a particular verse in Matthew 24:30, I think you said [??] (the "then," somewhere around there?)

Anyway, I disagree with that, because of the following reasons:

--"GREAT tribulation" (the second half) COMMENCES at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth"... but the "2W's [own] 1260 days" ENDS at the "6th Trumpet events / 2nd Woe"... this means that MUCH of their "ministry / testimony" time-period PRECEDES the mid-point, as do the first 4 Trumpets... [as well as the seals / BoBPs]... ; whereas their ministry / testimony [1260d] also extends a little bit past the mid-point also--It overlaps the two halves;

--the "GREAT tribulation" is kicked off by the AoD (1260d / 42 mos / 3.5y are still remaining, before Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 / Isa27:[9,]12-13 "GREAT" trumpet [Matt24:29-31]); same period as when Satan and his angels will be "cast out unto the earth" and he is "having great wrath because he knoweth that he hath but A SHORT TIME"; same time-slot that "a star FALL from heaven unto the earth" [see Dan8:10 for similar wording] and when "the bottomless pit was opened" (it is only opened one time / at one point in time)



There simply are not "1260 days" (of the "2W") in that section of Matt 24's one verse you speak of, as you suggest. = )



Way back at the AoD verse 15[,21] point in the chronology, the "2W" are neither starting nor finishing their ministry (it falls WITHIN their ministry "1260d" though).

^
These all occur or commence at the MID-Trib time-slot [at the 5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth]



The "2W's [own] 1260 days" starts well-prior to the "5th" Trumpet [Mid-point], and concludes at the "6th" Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe (... so that's during 6 of the Trumpets, which also straddle the halves)

I believe what I believe about the [time of the] Two Witnesses because of the following...

Revelation 11:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I believe:

1) The time of the Two Witnesses will be 3.5 years.

2) The description in verse 6 aligns with the Trumpet events. (the first 5, possibly 6)

3) The descriptions from Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, and Luke 21:25-26 refer to the Trumpet events timeframe also.

4) The two witnesses actually cause the Trumpet events to come about by/through their prophecy/testimony. (the first 5, possibly 6)

In event terms, the Trumpet events take place after the end of the 'tribulation' ["period"]. Why? Because of the 'after tribulation' statements in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24.

You see - I do not define the 'Great Tribulation' ["period"] by modern-man "scholarly" determinations about what it should include based on what "sounds scary" or what would seem to be "severely painful" to those who experience it; rather, I define it based [strictly] on what scripture says occurs before it, during it, and after it. In other words - in 'event' terms.

I base it on the simple straightforward descriptions of the Olivet Discourse - 'great tribulation'/'affliction'/'great distress'.

No modern-man "scholarly" capitalized enhanced redefinitions of what Jesus said. (I only use 'Great Tribulation' for the purpose of a "same page" reference.)

I am pretty sure that the 'Wrath of God' will be the most 'scary' and most 'painful' of all; however, it is [considered to be] 'post-trib' - because it occurs in a time-frame that is after when the Bible defines the end of that 'trib'.

The same is true with regard to the Trumpet events.

Order of events:

'Great Tribulation' ["period" ends]
Two Witnesses / Trumpet events
Second Coming of Christ
'Wrath of God'

The last three are 'post-trib' - because the Bible says so - in the 'after tribulation' statements of the Olivet Discourse.

It is that simple. It really is.

It is only a matter of terminology. Of course, everyone should be "on the same page" in terms of the definitions - for the sake of having meaningful less-confusing discussion. But, the most important thing to understand is the Order of Events - whatever terminology you may use.

Here is my Order of Events view on the End Times Scenario:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

If you take the 3.5 years of the time of the Two Witnesses - subtract the amount of time from when the bottomless pit is opened until they are killed - you may then "back up" that remainder of time from the opening of the bottomless pit to the beginning of the time of the Two Witnesses / Trumpet events. That point in time is when the 'Great Tribulation' ["period"] ends - when the two witnesses "show up on the scene" and begin their prophecy/testimony.

And, this is why I say that the 'Great Tribulation' is "ended" by the Two Witnesses and not the Second Coming of Christ.

The 'Great Tribulation' and the Two Witnesses are two different separate distinguishable identifiable spans of time.

The 'Great Tribulation' ends when the [time of the] Two Witnesses begins.

And, when that ends, the Second Coming of Christ will occur directly after...

(That is my view.)