Daniel 9 Already Fulfilled

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TheDivineWatermark

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I would have to take a closer look later) - but, it definitely looks like 'te' is used in v11a in relation to the content of v11a and in v11b in relation to the content of v11b - no v11a-to-v11b 'boundary' is "crossed" in the 'grammar of the language' - they are separate. And, that is why it is used twice.;)
Just placing this here for convenience, for us and for the readers:

-- https://biblehub.com/text/luke/21-11.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/21-11.htm


[and]

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk/21/11/t_concif_994011




( :unsure::geek::coffee::coffee: )









[but I reiterate... "BEFORE ALL THESE [INCLUDING everything in v.11]," the events of/surrounding 70ad in the subsequent passage must take place (first... "BEFORE" them--which is what I've stated... the 70ad events come first, then sequentially later the Beginning of birth pangs [/SEALS] kick off the far-future Trib yrs [the 'in quickness' time period] and lead up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Heb. 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Do you agree that the following passage (from your verse ^ )...


10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



...corresponds to Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 (the "dry bones" prophecy... which hasn't happened yet)...

saying,

Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves [referring to the "graveyard of nations," WHERE SCATTERED], and bring you into the land of Israel.

And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves [ditto the above bracketed insert], O my people, and brought you up out of your graves [ditto again],

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

[...]

And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.





[which "dry bones" prophecy ^ parallels the following passages: Hosea 5:14-6:3; Daniel 12:1-3; Rom11:15[,25]; Isa26:13-21 esp v.19 (etc); ALL regarding "Israel" coming up out of the "graveyard of nations," WHERE SCATTERED--not speaking of physically-dead people bodily resurrecting from the dead]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ Oh, and this one (along with the Ezek37 passage I posted above):

[Jer31]

“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[fn] them,[fn]”
declares the LORD.

This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[but I reiterate... "BEFORE ALL THESE [INCLUDING everything in v.11]," the events of/surrounding 70ad in the subsequent passage must take place (first... "BEFORE" them--which is what I've stated... the 70ad events come first, then sequentially later the...
Speaking of the word "ALL" in Lk21:12, I just noticed...

BlueLetterBible shows it to be the word "G537 [apanton / apas]- ἅπας hápas, hap'-as; from G1 (as a particle of union) and G3956; absolutely all or (singular) every one:—all (things), every (one), whole." [... and says there...] "ἅπας [apas], -ασα, -αν, (from ἅμα [or rather ἁ (Sanskrit sa; cf. α copulative), see Curtius, § 598; Vanicek, p. 972] and πᾶς; stronger than the simple πᾶς [pas]), [...]"

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g537/kjv/tr/0-1/
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk/21/12/p0/t_concif_994012





...whereas BibleHub shows this word to be "G3956 - pantōn / pas" - https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/21-12.htm








Just found that kind of interesting to think about. :)
 

Yahshua

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The chronology of events in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse is greatly simplified by the two charts on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

The main chart shows the alignment of verses in the three accounts while the 'Chronological Order' chart below the main chart shows the order of events in history.
I sure do miss the older version of this site when we could post tables, else I'd copy your table here. good stuff
 

Yahshua

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Instead, I'm saying that the events surrounding 70ad (including the destruction of Jerusalem--surrounded by armies, etc--vv.12-24a) MUST TAKE PLACE "BEFORE ALL THESE" items / events
Hopefully the following helps somewhat (in view of your [ @Yahshua ' ] earlier request to lay out each verse):
Ok, thank you. I think I understand your position. To make your position as clear as possible, I listed it in bullet form.

TDW's understanding of events per Luke 21 and interpretation of the phrase "before all these":
1) Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
3) Deception
4) War
5) Famine
6) Pestilences
7) Fearful sights in heaven
8) Time of Tribulation
8) More Fearful sights in Heaven and on Earth
10) 2nd Coming

----

And again for reference, here are how the events are listed in Luke, Matthew, and Mark.

Luke 21:
1) Deception
2) War
3) Famine
4) Disease/Pestilence
5) Fearful sights in heaven
6) (but before all these) Martyrdom & Testimony
6) 70AD destruction
7) Time of Tribulation (cut short for the sake of the elect)
8) Fearful sights in Heaven and Earth
9) 2nd Coming


Matthew 24:
1) Deception
2) War
3) Famine
4) Disease/Pestilence
5) Martyrdom
6) 70AD destruction
7) Time of Tribulation (cut short for the sake of the elect)
8) Fearful sights in Heaven and Earth
9) 2nd Coming


Mark 13:
1) Deception
2) War
3) Famine
4) "Troubles"
5) Martyrdom
6) 70AD destruction
7) Time of Affliction (cut short for the sake of the elect)
8) Fearful sights in Heaven and Earth
9) 2nd Coming

----

...Continuing with this in mind, your interpretation makes sense only when we exclude Matthew 24, Mark 13...and even Revelation 6, which is why I asked in my last post: Do you believe seals 1-7 are the same prophesied events as those listed in the Olivet Discourse?

Seals:
1) Horseman with a bow & crown to conquer (considered the antichrist spirit by many)
2) Horseman with a long sword to take away peace = War
3) Horseman with scales and talking about money = Famine
4) Death horseman with the grave following = Disease/Pestilence
5) Servants of God martyred for their testimony = Martyrdom
6) Wrath of the Lamb ("darkness of sun, moon, stars..hide our faces!")
7) Sealing of the 144k (followed by "great multitude...have come out of great tribulation")
8) Horns of judgment (etc., etc., etc.)
9) Wrath of God

If we believe that the seals are a prophecy of future events, AND we believe that the Olivet Discourse is a prophecy of future events - both prophecies involving many of the same things - then each prophetic text must somehow synchronize by necessity, wouldn't you agree?
 

Yahshua

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I incorrectly listed my numbering of Luke 21 in the last post...

Luke 21:
1) Deception
2) War
3) Famine
4) Disease/Pestilence
5) Fearful sights in heaven
6) (but before all these) Martyrdom & Testimony
7) 70AD destruction
8) Time of Tribulation (cut short for the sake of the elect)
9) Fearful sights in Heaven and Earth
10) 2nd Coming
 

GaryA

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Just be glad you didn't put three 6's in that list - or, someone would have been sure to call you Satan...

:devilish:

(JK)
 

GaryA

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I sure do miss the older version of this site when we could post tables, else I'd copy your table here. good stuff
But - that is what the link is for - simple, practical, elegant, ... :)

I know exactly what you mean about being able to post tables.

Thank you for the encouraging words.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Ok, thank you. I think I understand your position. To make your position as clear as possible, I listed it in bullet form.
TDW's understanding of events per Luke 21 and interpretation of the phrase "before all these":
1) Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
3) Deception
4) War
5) Famine
6) Pestilences
7) Fearful sights in heaven
8) Time of Tribulation
8) More Fearful sights in Heaven and on Earth
10) 2nd Coming
CLOSE! You almost got it (better than yesterday! lol)




Allow me to correct just a bit, to better reflect my actual viewpoint:

[you said] TDW's understanding of events per Luke 21 and interpretation of the phrase "before all these" [I'll insert my corrections/clarifications]:
1) [so "BEFORE ALL the beg. of BPs," 1&2] Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
a) also the "SEE-then-FLEE" of Lk21:20-21, when they "see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Lk19:41-44; Matt22:7);
b) and Jesus' words in "Matt24:2/Mk13:2/Lk21:5-6" about the Temple destruction (Dan9:26b)
c) "great distress in the land, and WRATH upon THIS people" (Matt22:7 "...when the king heard thereof, he was WROTH: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and BURNED UP THEIR CITY"--same thing Jesus spoke of ON the very day that the 69 Weeks were concluded [Palm Sunday] Lk19:41-44, etc);

[all of these being events surrounding 70ad--vv.12-24a,b]

d) [insert here-->] "24b and they shall be led away captive into all the nations"
"24c AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN of the Gentiles UNTIL... [this part of the verse is what follows on from the 70ad events--"desolaTIONS are determined" (very lengthy duration! So Lk21:24b/c here [and v.32's "TILL all shall have taken place"] are the only LENGTHY parts--"Historicist-like" Ha :D )--and doesn't END till Christ's far-future 2nd Coming to the earth (per Rev11:2) after the below items take place...]



------------


[then sequentially later / after the above (not "immediately" after the 70ad events ^ )--the following takes place... all WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period (Rv1:1/1:19c/4:1) that we commonly call the Tribulation Period, i.e. 7 yrs leading up to Christ's RETURN to the earth]

3) Deception (both Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 provide a further/additional detail here [same matter and time-slot as Lk's]--"take heed that 'A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]' not deceive you, [FOR MANY shall come in my name, saying...]" (warning about A CERTAIN ONE IN PARTICULAR!) ... so THIS is the INITIAL "birth PANG" of "the beginning of birth PANGS"--This corresponds with all of the following passages:
a) the INITIAL "birth PANG" Paul speaks of in 1Th5:1-3 (the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, time-wise--i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time period we call the Trib);
b) the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PAROUSIA [king-leader stuffs]" of the man of sin ("IN his TIME") 2Th2:9a,8a,3b ("be revealed"), i.e. SEAL #1 (rider on white horse WITH A BOW ["bow" often meaning "DECEPTION" in scripture]--"a crown" was "given unto him: and HE WENT FORTH conquering and to conquer");
c) "prince THAT SHALL COME / COMING" Dan9:26b (the "he / he / he" of v.27a/b/c--corresponds to the "who [whose] / who / who [whom]" of 2Th2's "man of sin");
and where 2Th2:4a [not b] parallels the precise wording about the SAME PERSON in Dan11:36's regime-change person: "king [or, leader] shall do according to his will" (note the wording in that verse, because it describes this same person elsewhere in related passages);
d) "ye have heard [phrase indicating a reference back to OT info] that antichrist SHALL COME..." (1Jn2:18);
e) [and possibly Jesus referencing him, where He'd said...] "if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (Jn5:43);

[ALL of those ^ are the START / KICK-OFF-point of the 7-yr Trib, far-future to when spoken/written, i.e. its INITIAL "ARRIVAL" / FIRST MOMENT]

[...and continuing on...]
4) War (Seal #2; ALSO in "the beginning of birth pangs"--early in Trib)
5) Famine (Seal #3--BoBPs too--early in Trib)
6) Pestilences (part of the beginning of birth pangs also--early in Trib)
7) Fearful sights in heaven (Seal #6, early in the Trib; corresponds with the wording in Joel 2:31 "moon into blood"... "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect of the Trib, i.e. BEFORE the SECOND HALF / GREAT Trib)
8) Time of Tribulation
(so ALL of 3-8 is the STARTING PORTION of the 7-yr period--aka "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"--AS THE FIRST PART OF what we commonly call the [entire] "tribulation period" / 70th Week... THESE "BoBPs / SEALS" lasting close to 1.5 to nearly 2 yrs, something like that--all being WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 refers to, which is what we label the 7-yr Trib--so all these fall WITHIN that, as the FIRST PORTION of it)


------------


[the following (9-10) would occur at some point following the above-mentioned SEALS / BEGINNING of birth pangs; so #9 could happen possibly any time during the 7 Trumpet judgments, or more likely the the last 3 Trumpets (5th Trumpet is the MID-point) and the 7 Vial judgments (so sometime during the total of 1260 days / second half, aka "the GREAT tribulaton"), the following occurs...]

8)[9] More Fearful sights in Heaven [rather, specifically "in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars"--so technically, here, "the heavenS" not necessarily "heaven" as back in the earlier v.11b] and on Earth [yes, all of v.25 (Lk21) being DISTINCT from the ones having already been spoken of in verse 11b which were part of the earlier SEALS; V.25 is pretty picking up from where the beginning of birth pangs (i.e. Seals) left off, or possibly mid-trib onward... and lead to...];

10) 2nd Coming (Rev19; Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" but Christ's Second Coming to the earth and the gathering of the elect of Israel [gathered "ONE by ONE"] into ONE PLACE upon the earth, to "worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"--see also Isa24:23, etc, etc)





Does this help clarify? ( :D )
 

GaryA

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Why could you not just create a simple list like @Moses_Young did (correcting the order [only]) and THEN explain-all-you-want using it as a [numbered] reference...??????????

:censored:
 

GaryA

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(While I am intending to make a valid point/suggestion - I am also just messin' with ya... :D )

;)

:coffee:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Why could you not just create a simple list like @Moses_Young did (correcting the order [only]) and THEN explain-all-you-want using it as a [numbered] reference...??????????

:censored:
Well, I already (earlier in the thread) laid out the sequence (granted, without putting "numbers" beside them),

[saying something like] "the 70ad events in vv.12-24a,b must take place sequentially before the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11"


and then, when "read back to me" (so to speak) what sequence they think I've intended by that ^ but perhaps mis-taking my intentions,

...I then, in a later post, spelled out the entire passage [placing my bracketed explanation after each line of the text, as suggested], and explained again that "the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b take place before all of the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11,"

and it is still mis-taken to mean that "the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11 are included in the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b," or "the 70ad events of vv.12-24a,b include the beginning of birth pangs of vv.8-11,"

...I decided to go about it in a slightly different (and more detailed) way in this latest post,
separating the sections to show the SEQUENCE issues of the text itself, so in a more visual way (but including the details, so I don't have to go back and either make this additional post even longer, or to make it into two or three separate "explanation" posts, which people tend to think are not actually connected or how it ties into the "numbered sequence" I would have placed separately before it).
I feel that gets magnificently complicated.




And in about a billion past posts, I've put (things like) that Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 [same time-slot as Lk21:8-11] "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" is the START of the ["future," 7-yr] Trib, i.e. the ARRIVAL/parousia of "the man of sin" (his "be revealed" moment) and IS Seal #1 (the INITIAL "BP [singular]" Jesus spoke of as first item in His list... as did Paul speak of it), and that the SEALS / BoBPs come SEQUENTIALLY AFTER the events surrounding 70ad... so I am unsure how it can be perceived that I am saying the "beginning of birth pangs" are part of "the 70ad events"

... I tried to make it MORE CLEAR in that latest post, that I do NOT mean that. :)



[I did C&P their list... adding my thoughts TO it... which C&P I hoped would save me some typing! ha]




Another reason is, to attempt to show how ALL the related passages (I'm sure I missed a few) on THIS Subject correspond coherently, as I stated in a much earlier post... including [in the 7 Trib yrs]:

--its BEGINNING...
--its MIDDLE...
--its END

(all of these ^ in EACH of the related passages: in Dan9 [and 7] and 11-12; in Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 (speaking of the chpts[4-5,] 6-19); in 2Th2:3b-9a+; in the Olivet Discourse, etc... And Rev1:1 makes it clear that these are things which "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]"... not things which will transpire over the course of some near-2000 years ;) ; In Revelation alone, one can trace out the calendar dates, totaling the "2520 days," which I won't get into here [this post is long enough, and sufficient to the point, I hope :D ])






I do want to say that I do appreciate your comment and concern. I will take it to heart. I hope, though, that you might understand my quandry... lol. I am going the best I can. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Why could you not just create a simple list like @Moses_Young did (correcting the order [only]) and THEN explain-all-you-want using it as a [numbered] reference...??????????

:censored:
:)

Besides, if you'll notice what I'd put in that post (Post #271) was this quote...

Ok, thank you. I think I understand your position. To make your position as clear as possible, I listed it in bullet form.
[...]
1) Apostles' Persecution/Martyrdom & Testimony
2) 70 AD Destruction
3) Deception
4) War
5) Famine
6) Pestilences
7) Fearful sights in heaven
8) Time of Tribulation
8) More Fearful sights in Heaven and on Earth
10) 2nd Coming
... notice in my elaboration Post #271), I KEPT THE SAME ORDER except for Point #8 ("Time of Tribulation") which I explained STARTS at (and includes) #3 and goes through #9 (ending with Christ's Second Coming to the earth; so its duration [#3-9] being the "7-yr period" / "in quickness")...

...and I separated out the quote itself, to help illustrate my "sequence" point, also.





I also had explained (somewhere) that "great DISTRESS in the land, and WRATH upon this people" (Lk21:23) is recorded in the "70ad" section of the Olivet Discourse (vv.12-24a,b),

...and THUS ^ is completely distinct (in TIMING and in nature of) from that of [what is commonly termed today] "the [7-yr] tribulation period" (as many tend to CONFLATE these)

("The Tribulation"--as we commonly term it:
--aka the "in quickness [noun]" time-period per Rev1:1/1:19c/4:1 [speaking of the "future" aspects of Rev [chpts 4-5,]6-19];
--aka the "70th Week" per Dan9:27a,b,c[,26b];
--aka Dan11:36 thru 12:13,12;
--aka 2Th2:3b-9a [and many verses in chpt 1], and 1Th5:1-3's reference to its ARRIVAL point in time;
--and the other parts of the Olivet Discourse [not counting the "70ad" parts], starting with "the beginning of birth pangs," and then MANY MORE birth pangs which follow on from those, and which take place in the specific, future, LIMITED time period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19 [<--this last one--His "RETURN" to the earth--being the SAME time-slot as Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"--i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, at that point--THEN "the meal [G347; parallel Matt8:11 etc; i.e. the MK age], not to "MARRY" those particular "saints / believers / righteous" existing on the earth at that time, in this Lk 21 passage--same as many other passages in the Gospels accounts speak to, meaning, passages relating to His coming / return to the earth [FOR the earthly MK age which will commence at that time])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"--i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom, at that point--THEN "the meal [G347; parallel Matt8:11 etc; i.e. the MK age], not to "MARRY" those particular "saints / believers / righteous" existing on the earth at that time, in this Lk 21 passage
EDIT to correct: (argh) should read "Lk12" (as it says at the preface of that point! :p --speaking of Lk12:36-37,38,40 etc... i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth, and that those "righteous / saints / believers" in this passage [and many other passages in the Gospels] DO NOT LIFT OFF THE EARTH, and He is not "MARRYING" them--the earthly MK [aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" i.e. "meal"] is commencing just after this point in the chronology)
 

GaryA

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What I think you are saying is that, v.11b takes place MUCH LATER (like thousand[/s] years?) from that of vv.10-11a;
No - that is not what I am saying.

Please keep one eye on the charts on my Olivet Discourse web page while you read the following explanation.

When considering the meaning and significance of some of the wording, it can be looked at from more than one perspective. For example, the preaching and publishing of the gospel takes on two different specific meanings - one is in the sense of the ongoing preaching and publishing of the gospel - the other in the sense of at what point in time the preaching and publishing of the gospel is accomplished. The first is 'continuing' while the second is 'finished'. Since we know that the gospel has been "preached and published" (please understand the context) from the first century until now, the most significant meaning is found in the second one. This is the meaning being illustrated in the Chronological Order chart.

At the same time, some 'overlap' actually exists across some of the ordered rows of the chart - which is why 'starts and continues' is used in the Comments column of the chart.

Row 4 ("great tribulation") has the greatest single expanse of time. (many centuries)

Rows 5, 6, and 7 are closer together. (within the past century or so/two)

I believe that the description in the "the beginning of sorrows" verses (taken collectively) is referring to "more recent times" in history.

On the main chart, the 'But before all these' statement applies to Row 5 but not Row 4.

There is a 'grammar of the language' separation between Row 4 and Row 5.

The '[All] these are the beginning of sorrows' statements in Matthew and Mark are referring only to the description in Row 5. The description in Row 4 is not included. The 'sorrows' of this statement is synonymous with the "birth pangs" you have been referring to.

The description in Row 4 is chronologically before the 'But before all these' things listed in Rows 8, 10-12 - whereas, Row 5 is chronologically after those things.
 

GaryA

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--one being "the BEGINNING of birth pangs," whereas the other being the "birth pangs" which FOLLOW ON from the "BEGINNING" of them (just as "labor" for a woman with child... the INITIAL one coming upon her "SUDDENLY" [1Th5:1-3])
Not every place in the Bible that makes reference to the idea of the 'travail upon a woman with child' is talking about the same subject/topic context.

There is no 'initial/sudden' in the context of the Olivet Discourse verses in this discussion where "birth pangs" may be understood to apply.

It is not the same subject/topic as that in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3.
 

GaryA

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huh?

I just showed (quoting from BibleHub), how "te... te" (11a... 11b--i.e. used twice, one after the other) "presents as parallel (or coordinate) the ideas or sentences which it connects, as... so"





I'm not suggesting this means they are IDENTICAL items, but that they "go together"... just as "beginning of birth pangs" AND "birth pangs" which follow on from those do (connected in such a way)...

i.e. they aren't things occurring MANY MANY DECADES APART from each other (which I think is your view), if that makes sense
Each 'te' association is with regard to the words immediately before and after - not any-and-all words in any sentence in the passage that contains a 'te'. :rolleyes: