Predestination is misunderstood...

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K

Kroogz

Well-known member
#561
Dec 5, 2023
772
302
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#561
Mem said:
We no longer going to die for our sins, we're dying for our ignorance. That is what we no longer have excuse for.
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Hello Mem.
This is my take on it. If unbelievers were truly ignorant of the Gospel.......They would have an excuse right? I believe God makes it plain to each and every individual......Absolutely no excuse. Acts 16:31,John 3:16.

And how can God pay for all sin and yet everyone is not saved and God remain Just? The problem is evil, not sin. All sin is judged, but not all human good(evil.) And this evil is what is judged. Unbelievers 'good' deeds and works cannot save and do not justify.

It goes way back to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Good is God's divine Good, the evil is human good. The Lord did not pay for human good(evil.)

Rev 20:12~~
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Matt 7:22,23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Satan's greatest lie is being good, and being our own saviors........ What many call religion, is satans ace trump. Because he knows The Lord Jesus Christ paid for all sin.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#562
Jun 30, 2015
25,485
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#562
Johann said:
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
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That says “righteousness… is by faith”, not “righteousness is faith”.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#563
Jul 3, 2015
60,206
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#563
The shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient for all but efficacious only unto those who believe,
by grace through faith, being reconciled to God, and attaining to life ever after via faith and repentance.
All others face judgment and condemnation at the end of this age, and then suffer the second death.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#564
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#564
Dino246 said:
Chapter and verse, please.
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Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#565
Jun 30, 2015
25,485
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#565
John146 said:
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 10:
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
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In your earlier post, you said this:

"Nope, the faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, is imputed to those that believe."

None of the verses you quoted state or imply that "the faith of Jesus Christ" is imputed to those that believe. Romans 3:22 says, "righteousness... which is by faith of Jesus Christ", while Galatians 3:22 says that "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given", and Romans 10:3-4 is irrelevant.

So... you still have provided nothing that actually supports your assertion.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#566
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#566
Dino246 said:
In your earlier post, you said this:

"Nope, the faith of Jesus Christ, which is God's righteousness, is imputed to those that believe."

None of the verses you quoted state or imply that "the faith of Jesus Christ" is imputed to those that believe. Romans 3:22 says, "righteousness... which is by faith of Jesus Christ", while Galatians 3:22 says that "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given", and Romans 10:3-4 is irrelevant.

So... you still have provided nothing that actually supports your assertion.
Click to expand...
Imputed, given, upon...
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#567
Apr 12, 2022
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#567
John146 said:
Imputed, given, upon...
Click to expand...
λογίζομαι
logízomai; fut. logísomai, fut. pass. logisthḗsomai, aor. elogisámēn; aor. pass. elogísthēn, mid. deponent from lógos (G3056), reason, word, account. To reckon, impute, number.
(I) Actually, the verb logízomai means to put together with one's mind, to count, to occupy oneself with reckonings or calculations.
(II) In the NT, the pres. used in a pass. sense, as in Rom_4:4-5, Rom_4:24; Rom_9:8, also means to reckon, count (1Co_13:5); to reason (Mar_11:31); to think (Rom_2:3; Rom_8:18; 1Co_13:11; 2Co_3:5; 2Co_10:7, 2Co_10:11; Php_4:8; 1Pe_5:12). To count something to somebody means to reckon something to a person, to put to his account, either in his favor or for what he must be answerable (Rom_4:3-4, Rom_4:6, Rom_4:8-9, Rom_4:11, Rom_4:22; 2Co_5:19; Gal_3:6; 2Ti_4:16; Jas_2:23).
In Rom_4:11, the expression is used as a technical term applied to God's act of justification which is more fully explained in verse six. It is that imputation of righteousness whose correlative is freedom from guilt, and the emphasis clearly rests upon "it is counted" (Rom_4:10, Rom_4:23-24).
In Act_19:27, it means esteeming or reckoning as of no account. Such a usage is common with Paul (Rom_2:26; Rom_9:8). When something is counted to somebody for something, it denotes that it is imputed to the person in a substitutionary manner. The expression, "to count someone with somebody," means to number someone with (Mar_15:28; Luk_22:37).
Logízomai also means to reckon, to value or esteem (Rom_8:36; 1Co_4:1; 2Co_10:2; 2Co_12:6); followed by the acc. with the inf. (Rom_14:14; 2Co_11:5; Php_3:13); followed by hóti (G3754), that (Heb_11:19); followed by two acc. (Rom_6:11). To account, to conclude or infer, to believe (Rom_3:28).
Deriv.: analogízomai (G357), to estimate, consider; dialogízomai (G1260), to reckon distributively, to settle with one, to consider, deliberate; logismós (G3053), reckoning; paralogízomai (G3884), to beguile, deceive; sullogízomai (G4817), to reason with.
Syn.: dokéō (G1380), to think, suppose; ellogéō (G1677), to put to a person's account, to reckon, impute; kataxióō (G2661), to count worthy; noéō (G3539), to perceive, understand; huponoéō (G5282), to suppose, surmise, think; nomízō (G3543), to suppose; phronéō (G5426), to think; oíomai (G3633) I suppose, think; krínō (G2919), to judge, reckon; arithméō (G705), to count; katarithméō (G2674), to count along; egkrínō (G1469), to reckon along; sugkatapsēphízō (G4785), to reckon together with; katalégō (G2639), to count in; dialégomai (G1256), to ponder; sullogízomai (G4817), to compute, reason; sugkleíō (G4788), to include; ginṓskō (G1097), to know, recognize.
Ant.: exouthenéō (G1848), to make of no account, despise; agnoéō (G50), not to know, to ignore; apodokimázō (G593), to reject as the result of examination and disapproval, disallow, despise; athetéō (G114), to set aside, modify, disannul, reject; kataphronéō (G2706), to despise; periphronéō (G4065), to despise; akuróō (G208), to make of no effect, disannul; kenóō (G2758), to make of no effect, to empty; katargéō (G2673), to make void, of no effect, to abolish.


J.
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#568
Apr 12, 2022
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#568
John146 said:
Imputed, given, upon...
Click to expand...
The faith of Jesus is not imputed to believers.

Instead, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers. This means that believers are credited with the holiness of Christ, and it is through this imputation that they are considered righteous before God. The doctrine of imputation teaches that while Adam's sin is imputed to all humanity, God imputes the righteousness of Christ to those who believe in Him

. This righteousness belongs to believers because they are in Christ, and it is the righteousness of God that is imputed to the believer, not the faith of Jesus

J.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#569
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#569
Johann said:
λογίζομαι
logízomai; fut. logísomai, fut. pass. logisthḗsomai, aor. elogisámēn; aor. pass. elogísthēn, mid. deponent from lógos (G3056), reason, word, account. To reckon, impute, number.
(I) Actually, the verb logízomai means to put together with one's mind, to count, to occupy oneself with reckonings or calculations.
(II) In the NT, the pres. used in a pass. sense, as in Rom_4:4-5, Rom_4:24; Rom_9:8, also means to reckon, count (1Co_13:5); to reason (Mar_11:31); to think (Rom_2:3; Rom_8:18; 1Co_13:11; 2Co_3:5; 2Co_10:7, 2Co_10:11; Php_4:8; 1Pe_5:12). To count something to somebody means to reckon something to a person, to put to his account, either in his favor or for what he must be answerable (Rom_4:3-4, Rom_4:6, Rom_4:8-9, Rom_4:11, Rom_4:22; 2Co_5:19; Gal_3:6; 2Ti_4:16; Jas_2:23).
In Rom_4:11, the expression is used as a technical term applied to God's act of justification which is more fully explained in verse six. It is that imputation of righteousness whose correlative is freedom from guilt, and the emphasis clearly rests upon "it is counted" (Rom_4:10, Rom_4:23-24).
In Act_19:27, it means esteeming or reckoning as of no account. Such a usage is common with Paul (Rom_2:26; Rom_9:8). When something is counted to somebody for something, it denotes that it is imputed to the person in a substitutionary manner. The expression, "to count someone with somebody," means to number someone with (Mar_15:28; Luk_22:37).
Logízomai also means to reckon, to value or esteem (Rom_8:36; 1Co_4:1; 2Co_10:2; 2Co_12:6); followed by the acc. with the inf. (Rom_14:14; 2Co_11:5; Php_3:13); followed by hóti (G3754), that (Heb_11:19); followed by two acc. (Rom_6:11). To account, to conclude or infer, to believe (Rom_3:28).
Deriv.: analogízomai (G357), to estimate, consider; dialogízomai (G1260), to reckon distributively, to settle with one, to consider, deliberate; logismós (G3053), reckoning; paralogízomai (G3884), to beguile, deceive; sullogízomai (G4817), to reason with.
Syn.: dokéō (G1380), to think, suppose; ellogéō (G1677), to put to a person's account, to reckon, impute; kataxióō (G2661), to count worthy; noéō (G3539), to perceive, understand; huponoéō (G5282), to suppose, surmise, think; nomízō (G3543), to suppose; phronéō (G5426), to think; oíomai (G3633) I suppose, think; krínō (G2919), to judge, reckon; arithméō (G705), to count; katarithméō (G2674), to count along; egkrínō (G1469), to reckon along; sugkatapsēphízō (G4785), to reckon together with; katalégō (G2639), to count in; dialégomai (G1256), to ponder; sullogízomai (G4817), to compute, reason; sugkleíō (G4788), to include; ginṓskō (G1097), to know, recognize.
Ant.: exouthenéō (G1848), to make of no account, despise; agnoéō (G50), not to know, to ignore; apodokimázō (G593), to reject as the result of examination and disapproval, disallow, despise; athetéō (G114), to set aside, modify, disannul, reject; kataphronéō (G2706), to despise; periphronéō (G4065), to despise; akuróō (G208), to make of no effect, disannul; kenóō (G2758), to make of no effect, to empty; katargéō (G2673), to make void, of no effect, to abolish.


J.
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Yes, accounted to
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#570
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#570
Johann said:
The faith of Jesus is not imputed to believers.

Instead, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to believers. This means that believers are credited with the holiness of Christ, and it is through this imputation that they are considered righteous before God. The doctrine of imputation teaches that while Adam's sin is imputed to all humanity, God imputes the righteousness of Christ to those who believe in Him

. This righteousness belongs to believers because they are in Christ, and it is the righteousness of God that is imputed to the believer, not the faith of Jesus

J.
Click to expand...
LOL, the faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#572
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
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#572
Johann said:
But the faith of Jesus is not imputed to us-the dikaiosune/tzedakah/righteousness is-right?
J.
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The faith of Christ is God's righteousness. God's righteousness is given to them that believe. God and Jesus are one.
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#573
Apr 12, 2022
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#573
John146 said:
LOL, the faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Click to expand...
The faith of Jesus Christ is not the same as God's righteousness. In the New Testament, the righteousness of God is understood to be imparted to believers through faith in Jesus Christ. This means that believers are credited with the holiness of Christ, and it is through this imputation that they are considered righteous before God

. The righteousness of God is a gift given to those who believe in Jesus Christ, and it is not earned through human effort but is given freely by God

. Therefore, while the faith of Jesus is central to the Christian faith, it is the righteousness of God that is imputed to believers, not the faith of Jesus

J.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#574
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#574
Johann said:
But the faith of Jesus is not imputed to us-the dikaiosune/tzedakah/righteousness is-right?
J.
Click to expand...
Romans 3:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#576
Apr 12, 2022
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#576
John146 said:
LOL, the faith of Jesus Christ is God's righteousness.

Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Click to expand...
The faith of Jesus Christ is not the same as the righteousness of God. Rather, it is the faith of believers that leads to the imputation of God's righteousness. According to Scripture, the righteousness of God is received through faith in Jesus Christ, not through the faith of Jesus himself

. The righteousness of God is a gift granted to those who believe, and it is not dependent on their own merit or efforts

. Thus, faith and righteousness are related concepts, but they are distinct entities. Faith is the means by which believers obtain righteousness, but faith itself is not the righteousness that is imputed to believers.
 
Johann

Johann

Active member
#577
Apr 12, 2022
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#577
Thunderrr-mental said:
If your answer is no, then just answer in one simple sentence why you said this.
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The phrase "faith of Jesus Christ" is found in the New Testament and is often interpreted as referring to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, rather than the faith that individuals have in Jesus. This distinction is important because it emphasizes that it is not Jesus' faith that saves, but rather the individual's faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The righteousness of God is revealed through faith in Christ, making a believer righteous (Romans 3:21-26)

. The Greek word for "faith" is "πίστις" (pistis), which involves belief but goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation of God

. The righteousness of God is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ, and it is a gift of grace, not earned through human effort

. Therefore, while the faith of Jesus Christ is significant, it is the individual's faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior that leads to salvation and the imputation of God's righteousness

Does it sound paradoxical?
J
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#578
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#578
Johann said:
The phrase "faith of Jesus Christ" is found in the New Testament and is often interpreted as referring to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, rather than the faith that individuals have in Jesus. This distinction is important because it emphasizes that it is not Jesus' faith that saves, but rather the individual's faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The righteousness of God is revealed through faith in Christ, making a believer righteous (Romans 3:21-26)

. The Greek word for "faith" is "πίστις" (pistis), which involves belief but goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation of God

. The righteousness of God is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ, and it is a gift of grace, not earned through human effort

. Therefore, while the faith of Jesus Christ is significant, it is the individual's faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior that leads to salvation and the imputation of God's righteousness

Does it sound paradoxical?
J
Click to expand...
Certainly, it points to the faith that Christ had throughout his life. He was righteous from start to finish, always doing the will of his Father.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

Banned
#580
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
#580
Johann said:
The phrase "faith of Jesus Christ" is found in the New Testament and is often interpreted as referring to the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, rather than the faith that individuals have in Jesus. This distinction is important because it emphasizes that it is not Jesus' faith that saves, but rather the individual's faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The righteousness of God is revealed through faith in Christ, making a believer righteous (Romans 3:21-26)

. The Greek word for "faith" is "πίστις" (pistis), which involves belief but goes beyond human believing because it involves the personal revelation of God

. The righteousness of God is obtained through faith in Jesus Christ, and it is a gift of grace, not earned through human effort

. Therefore, while the faith of Jesus Christ is significant, it is the individual's faith in Jesus as their Lord and Savior that leads to salvation and the imputation of God's righteousness

Does it sound paradoxical?
J
Click to expand...
What your missing is, it was the faith of Jesus that defeated death.
 
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