Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#9,921
Oct 12, 2017
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#9,921
Mem said:
The sins of the world are forgiven, but many will go to hell just for being a putz.
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NO one goes to hell for their sins. The Cross wiped that issue off the books.

For the true issue in salvation has to do with their relationship with God.

Jesus said this one work (not works) saves. John 6:28-29
​
Then they said to Him, ​
“What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” (religious system = plurality)​
​
Jesus answered and said to them, ​
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” (one act of faith)​


All unbelievers will be evaluated and condemned... not according to their sins.
But from the failure to find that one single work Jesus said saves!

For all their works will be searched through, and no believing in the Son will be found!


Revelation 20:12​
​
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. ​
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged ​
according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. ​
​
One work will not be found. ​
​
Jesus answered and said to them, ​
“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”​
​
​
Some can not understand what the term works implied in the days the NT was written.
Many Jews were brainwashed by the pharisees to think one could do good deeds to win a ticket to heaven.
Those good deeds was a list of works....

Calvinists have turned the concept of any work being anathema.

Welcome to the insanity......
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#9,922
Oct 24, 2012
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#9,922
Drawing people to see to believe is the choice for all to make. Whether or not all will choose to believe, no one knows.
Yet God remains giving this free choice to choose to all. This way no one is a puppet in God's love and mercy ever in truth, thank you
Will all choose to believe God, all are called to choose to or not in the risen Son for everyone
At least this be what I now see after a long walk off a short pier. under Law to see the fine line in love and liberty given us all by God through Son.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#9,923
Oct 24, 2012
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#9,923
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#9,924
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
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#9,924
homwardbound said:
Drawing people to see to believe is the choice for all to make. Whether or not all will choose to believe, no one knows.
Yet God remains giving this free choice to choose to all. This way no one is a puppet in God's love and mercy ever in truth, thank you
Will all choose to believe God, all are called to choose to or not in the risen Son for everyone
At least this be what I now see after a long walk off a short pier. under Law to see the fine line in love and liberty given us all by God through Son.
Click to expand...
Yes....

Even the most reprobate, despicable, low down, kind of person was drawn by God, for as far as God can draw them!




The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the ​
godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth ​
by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain ​
to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the ​
creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power ​
and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood ​
from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God ​
nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and ​
their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to ​
be wise, they became fools​
​
​
Romans 1:18-22​
​
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#9,926
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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#9,926
Genez said:
Yes....

Even the most reprobate, despicable, low down, kind of person was drawn by God, for as far as God can draw them!


​
​
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the ​
godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth ​
by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain ​
to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the ​
creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power ​
and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood ​
from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​
​
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God ​
nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and ​
their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to ​
be wise, they became fools​
​
​
Romans 1:18-22​
​
Click to expand...
Their sins have been forgiven them, so they have no excuse for not glorifying God. No one can say, "I'm going to hell because Jesus did not die for my sins."

Rather, it is a valid claim that they will not see eternal life because they did not believe in the Door to it.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#9,927
Sep 23, 2014
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#9,927
This is the reason I believe that those that don't find the Door, will just die, as opposed to dying in Christ and being born into the, that is God's eternal, kingdom.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#9,928
Feb 17, 2024
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#9,928
JJoseph said:
Christ offered Salvation to all, even Judas. But only those who accept His offer of Salvation by their own free will in response to His Grace will actually be saved. One can choose to go to Hell by rejecting Grace. Or one can accept Grace and be saved.

But if Limited Atonement were true, then if Christ didn't die for you, there's actually nothing you can do about the fact that God positively predestined you to Eternal Torture in Hell when He created you, and He passed over dying for you on the Cross. Is that the God of the Bible, a God of Infinite Love? No, it is man's creation. Just imagine the torture you would feel if you knew Christ didn't die for you. And what applies to you applies to everyone. Christ died for everyone and made the salvation of everyone who wants to accept His offer possible. Therefore, if any refuse to be saved, it is their fault, not God's. But Limited Atonement comes close to making it out to be God's fault that people go to Hell, because God never gave them the chance/opportunity/possibility to be saved. It is a false doctrine and many Bible passages clearly teach against it.
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But Man's will isn't free. It's only free to act in accordance with its vile, wicked, sinful nature.. For it to be truly free, it would also have to be free FROM the bondage of sin, the world, the flesh and devil.

Also, answer this question, please: Since you claim that Christ died for all mankind in the distributive sense as the Spotless Lamb of God who sacrificed himself on behalf, then why, as their High Priest, did he explicitly omit the world, in his prayer to his Father, for whom he allegedly died in John 17?
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#9,929
Feb 17, 2024
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#9,929
Mem said:
Their sins have been forgiven them, so they have no excuse for not glorifying God. No one can say, "I'm going to hell because Jesus did not die for my sins."

Rather, it is a valid claim that they will not see eternal life because they did not believe in the Door to it.
Click to expand...
Of course not. People will go to hell because they know they are guilty sinners. Even Judas knew he was guilty!

And, yes, it is a valid claim that they won't see eternal life because they did not want to believe; therefore, how could they believe? They hate spiritual knowledge and wisdom and Love the Darkness and Death, instead.

Love and Hate are the two most powerful emotions in the universe. God knows this. This is why he promised in his New Covenant to unconditionally give his chosen, covenant people a new heart
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#9,930
Feb 17, 2024
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#9,930
I have a question for all NR who are quick to distort, twist and pervert the true Gospel: It has to do with this passage:

Gal 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
ESV

So...Jesus as a Jew -- a member of God's chosen, covenant nation, was born under the Mosaic Law Covenant -- and the text further says that he came to redeem those were were under the very same Law that He was. Therefore, Christ's redemption was limited to strictly God's chosen, covenant people -- just as the New Covenant was made strictly with God's chosen, covenant people, i.e. with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31). Explain to me, please, how Christ's narrow purpose of Redemption and the Father's equally limited scope of his intended recipients of his New Covenant promises translate into universal atonement in the distributive sense.

And please spare us all of your "proof texts" that you allege teach universal atonement without reconciling the two contradictions your interpretations would impose upon the two passages above.

Hint: Read Gal 4:4-7 very, very carefully and slowly. When the Father sent"the Spirit of His Son into our our hearts", was Paul alluding to a NC promise of the Spirit he would put into his covenant people? Or of the new heart that he would give his NC people? And did the "Spirit of his Son" just happen to also have the "Spirit of the Lord resting upon him -- the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the Spirit of knowledge and the Fear of the Lord" (Isa 11:1-2) -- you know the "Fear of the Lord" that just happens to be the beginning of Wisdom and Knowledge? And when someone cries out, "Abba Father", such an affectionate, familial phrase would surely speak to a True Knowledge of the Holy One, wouldn't it (Prov 9:10)? And it would even to the promise of God that ALL HIS people would KNOW him (Jer 31:21-34). And what is knowing God if not being raised from the dead and being made alive unto Him (Jn 17:3)?
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#9,932
Oct 12, 2017
2,935
419
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#9,932
Mem said:
Their sins have been forgiven them, so they have no excuse for not glorifying God. No one can say, "I'm going to hell because Jesus did not die for my sins."

Rather, it is a valid claim that they will not see eternal life because they did not believe in the Door to it.
Click to expand...
The only reason to save us is so we can be with the Lord forever.

If it were about only our sins? And, not about our relationship with the Lord? ?
It would have become a cheap salvation, and something to boast in ourselves about.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#9,933
Oct 12, 2017
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419
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#9,933
Rufus said:
But Man's will isn't free.
Click to expand...
With God's power of grace? That is what makes our will to be made free!

That is why it says we must be "saved by grace."

You seem to be a person who likes to fight.
Too bad, you did not want to learn more and more, to finally be made able to think things through clearly as to discover what it is to be right.

For one must suffer by God's will, in patience, while God in His timing supplies all that is needed to learn to zero in on the target.

Being a loose cannon is not smart.
Its dumb.
Bold, and dumb...

.............
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#9,935
Sep 23, 2014
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#9,935
Rufus said:
Of course not. People will go to hell because they know they are guilty sinners. Even Judas knew he was guilty!

And, yes, it is a valid claim that they won't see eternal life because they did not want to believe; therefore, how could they believe? They hate spiritual knowledge and wisdom and Love the Darkness and Death, instead.

Love and Hate are the two most powerful emotions in the universe. God knows this. This is why he promised in his New Covenant to unconditionally give his chosen, covenant people a new heart
Click to expand...
People will go to hell thinking that God hates them because you, a self-proclaimed representative of God, hate them and tell them that God hates them. So then, thanks to the gospel according to Rufus, effectively, God hates those that hate Him. And, although that is, indeed, the truth, that leaves out the core message of the gospel, the heart. So, where there is no heart, there is no life. It isn't the living word.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#9,936
Oct 29, 2023
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#9,936
Mem said:
People will go to hell thinking that God hates them because you, a self-proclaimed representative of God, hate them and tell them that God hates them. So then, thanks to the gospel according to Rufus, effectively, God hates those that hate Him. And, although that is, indeed, the truth, that leaves out the core message of the gospel, the heart. So, where there is no heart, there is no life. It isn't the living word.
Click to expand...
I don't know of anyone who became a Calvinist at the same time as they became a Christian. Calvinists do not preach Calvinism to the man on the street. They preach as if people have freewill to come to Jesus. It is only after someone puts their trust in Jesus that the Calvinist starts to convert them to TULIP. Calvinism feeds and grows parasitically on the church. No non-Christian off the street is going to receive and believe TULIP as good news.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#9,937
Oct 29, 2023
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#9,937
Rufus said:
I have a question for all NR who are quick to distort, twist and pervert the true Gospel: It has to do with this passage:

Gal 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
ESV

So...Jesus as a Jew -- a member of God's chosen, covenant nation, was born under the Mosaic Law Covenant -- and the text further says that he came to redeem those were were under the very same Law that He was. Therefore, Christ's redemption was limited to strictly God's chosen, covenant people -- just as the New Covenant was made strictly with God's chosen, covenant people, i.e. with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31). Explain to me, please, how Christ's narrow purpose of Redemption and the Father's equally limited scope of his intended recipients of his New Covenant promises translate into universal atonement in the distributive sense.

And please spare us all of your "proof texts" that you allege teach universal atonement without reconciling the two contradictions your interpretations would impose upon the two passages above.

Hint: Read Gal 4:4-7 very, very carefully and slowly. When the Father sent"the Spirit of His Son into our our hearts", was Paul alluding to a NC promise of the Spirit he would put into his covenant people? Or of the new heart that he would give his NC people? And did the "Spirit of his Son" just happen to also have the "Spirit of the Lord resting upon him -- the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the Spirit of knowledge and the Fear of the Lord" (Isa 11:1-2) -- you know the "Fear of the Lord" that just happens to be the beginning of Wisdom and Knowledge? And when someone cries out, "Abba Father", such an affectionate, familial phrase would surely speak to a True Knowledge of the Holy One, wouldn't it (Prov 9:10)? And it would even to the promise of God that ALL HIS people would KNOW him (Jer 31:21-34). And what is knowing God if not being raised from the dead and being made alive unto Him (Jn 17:3)?
Click to expand...
You are falling yet again into the negative inference fallacy. That Jesus came to redeem those under the very same law He was under, does not logically imply that those are the only ones He came to redeem. You are falsely inferring a "narrow purpose" into Gal. 4:4-7.

By applying your same illogic to Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - we would infer that Jesus died only for Saul of Tarsus.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#9,938
Sep 23, 2014
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#9,938
PaulThomson said:
I don't know of anyone who became a Calvinist at the same time as they became a Christian. Calvinists do not preach Calvinism to the man on the street. They preach as if people have freewill to come to Jesus. It is only after someone puts their trust in Jesus that the Calvinist starts to convert them to TULIP. Calvinism feeds and grows parasitically on the church. No non-Christian off the street is going to receive and believe TULIP as good news.
Click to expand...
And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:15,16

There is nothing about concerning sin there, i.e. whoever sins or does not sin. Everyone sinned and there is no one that hasn't sinned. Salvation pivots on belief, whoever you are. Why would anyone want to cast any shadow of a doubt on that?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#9,939
Jul 3, 2015
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#9,939
PaulThomson said:
I see another one who cannot understand the question.
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Asking your intention for context does not equate to lack of comprehension but your lack of comprehension fails to grasp that fact.

Or you simply revel in acting superior. Could be both. My guess is you hate being shown how wrong you are.

That's why you repeatedly refused to own up to the fact that you add to Scripture.

While bemoaning the fact that others do not simply stick to what the text actually says.

BTW? ^ That is context. You are untrustworthy. I do not trust your intentions.
 
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