The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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reneweddaybyday said:
The seal also attests to ownership. I didn't just pull that definition out of my hat. I have provided you with Scriptural reference materials which state this truth.


At the time we are born again, God creates within the born again one the new man. The old man (who we were in Adam) is to be put off and the new man is to be put on ... see Ephesians 4:22-24 and Colossians 3:5-10.

As we mortify the deeds of the body (put off the old man) and put on the new man, we grow up and mature in that new creation. This doesn't happen overnight ... it takes time to mature from newborn babe in Christ where we feed on the milk of the Word (1 Peter 2:2) ... to the point where we are no longer tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Ephesians 4:14) and where we feed on strong meat, and by reason of use have the senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14).

This maturation process takes time and God works it from the inside out (Philippians 1:6).

It's not that we're born again ... left unsealed until we finally start seeing spiritual fruit exhibited in our lives. We're sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise the instant we're born again ... then as we grow and mature in the Lord Jesus Christ, we start seeing some of that spiritual fruit and we start desiring to have that in our lives rather than the works of the flesh.

That it takes time to mature in the Lord to the point where we start seeing some of the spiritual fruit does not mean we were not sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise the moment we were born again.
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My apologies if the directness of my former post was in any way offensive, but the purpose of a seal is to be seen. When the Spirit fell on those in Cornelius’s house, it was meant for Peter to see. At Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out, it was meant for people to notice. When people spoke in tongues or glorified God in some manner of praise, it was meant to be a witness to authenticate the working of God in an individual. Sometimes it happened concurrently with the indwelling of the Spirit. At other times, it came subsequent to it.
Today, little is taught concerning it or it is taught incorrectly. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit, but as you stated, it takes time and is discerned by others who are spiritual themselves. The baptism of the Spirit is obvious to all.
 
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brightfame52

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It makes many to be made alive !

The obedience unto death of Christ is more effective than the disobedience of adam, so brings about a more glorious result. Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Now as by Adams one offence many be dead, dead to God and spiritually dead, all men by nature are dead spiritually the wages of sin, but because of Christ's obedience and the gift by Gods grace, it abounds to the many which makes them alive from the dead. Thats why Paul tells sinners that were spiritually dead, God made them alive through Christ, quickened them, so that they are or were saved by that abounding grace Eph 2:5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So if one is never made spiritually alive to God out of being spiritually dead, Christ could not have tasted death for them Heb 2:9 65
 
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reneweddaybyday

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Magenta said:
My daughter had given me this laptop for Christmas in 2021 after her dad passed away and the HD went on the fritz
about six months after I got it, so I lost a lot of the working copies of the finished panels... everything after "J" .:cry:
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oh noooo!!! ... so sorry you lost your work.

I participate in a women's Bible study group at church and when we're finished with a study, I like to take a verse we learned about and make a little framed artwork to put in our home or take to work. My little gifts are not as detailed compared to your elaborate designs. I know it takes time to develop the right background ... the edging ... the font for the verse ... the colors ... I can't imagine how much effort went in to what you lost when your hard drive failed.

Do you now store your work on an external hard drive? ... or back your work up to a separate drive? that way you'll at least have your completed work stored ...

I like it when there's some heated discussion in a thread and someone brings up a verse that inspires you to set up another of your panels ... directs us back to the Scriptures ... especially when things are getting "hot" ... heh!!! like all siblings, we sure do like to poke each other ... ;)
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reneweddaybyday

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Cameron143 said:
My apologies if the directness of my former post was in any way offensive
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I was not offended ... I understand communication in an online forum is somewhat challenging ... much more difficult than if we were sitting at a table with open Bible (and coffee and cookies :)).




Cameron143 said:
but the purpose of a seal is to be seen. When the Spirit fell on those in Cornelius’s house, it was meant for Peter to see. At Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out, it was meant for people to notice. When people spoke in tongues or glorified God in some manner of praise, it was meant to be a witness to authenticate the working of God in an individual. Sometimes it happened concurrently with the indwelling of the Spirit. At other times, it came subsequent to it.
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Paul is a great example ... the believers were afraid of him, doubting his intent. But when they heard Paul speak ... all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? (Acts 9:21).

The believers knew Paul was a changed man because of the words he spoke ... he preached Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God (Acts 9:20).

Paul preached that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Paul didn't speak in tongues ... they heard the words he spoke and knew Paul was now a believer. This was in Damascus. When Paul had to leave because the Jews sought to kill him, he went to Jerusalem and the believers there were afraid as well ... until Barnabas vouched for him (Acts 9:27). After that, Paul was able to preach until his life was again threatened (Acts 9:29).




Cameron143 said:
Today, little is taught concerning it or it is taught incorrectly. The fruit of the Spirit is evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit, but as you stated, it takes time and is discerned by others who are spiritual themselves. The baptism of the Spirit is obvious to all.
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right ... it's sad (to me) that there are believers who have been born again for some time ... years ... decades even ... and yet no one would know they're believers unless they said they were born again. very little fruit ... carnal christians.

is it that folks want to continue to conform to the world?

is it that the Word of God is being removed from the public square? I live in the US and slowly but surely God has been removed from public focus ... so there's lots to "unlearn" and some of these ideologies are deep-rooted.

is it that the Word of God is watered down at the pulpit so we don't "offend" unbelievers?

these are all factors but God is so good ... He just takes us as we are and He works within us in spite of our foolishness ... purging here ... removing unneeded junk there (and sometimes we like to hold on to that "junk") ...

to baptize is to fully immerse. We need to get to the point where we are not double minded ... walking after the Spirit one minute ... then walking after the flesh the next.

Galatians 5 teaches us the problem with that ... this I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (Galatians 5:16-17).

I love the verse in Romans 6 where God tells us What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? ... (vs 23).

When we're walking according to the Spirit and we are tempted ... is that temporary fleshly pleasure really worth the shame? And God is so patient with us ... always there when we finally turn back to Him ... He picks us up, dusts us off ... soothes our aching hearts.

sorry to have gone on so long ... just some musings ...
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Cameron143

Cameron143

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reneweddaybyday said:
I was not offended ... I understand communication in an online forum is somewhat challenging ... much more difficult than if we were sitting at a table with open Bible (and coffee and cookies :)).





Paul is a great example ... the believers were afraid of him, doubting his intent. But when they heard Paul speak ... all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? (Acts 9:21).

The believers knew Paul was a changed man because of the words he spoke ... he preached Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God (Acts 9:20).

Paul preached that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Paul didn't speak in tongues ... they heard the words he spoke and knew Paul was now a believer. This was in Damascus. When Paul had to leave because the Jews sought to kill him, he went to Jerusalem and the believers there were afraid as well ... until Barnabas vouched for him (Acts 9:27). After that, Paul was able to preach until his life was again threatened (Acts 9:29).





right ... it's sad (to me) that there are believers who have been born again for some time ... years ... decades even ... and yet no one would know they're believers unless they said they were born again. very little fruit ... carnal christians.

is it that folks want to continue to conform to the world?

is it that the Word of God is being removed from the public square? I live in the US and slowly but surely God has been removed from public focus ... so there's lots to "unlearn" and some of these ideologies are deep-rooted.

is it that the Word of God is watered down at the pulpit so we don't "offend" unbelievers?

these are all factors but God is so good ... He just takes us as we are and He works within us in spite of our foolishness ... purging here ... removing unneeded junk there (and sometimes we like to hold on to that "junk") ...

to baptize is to fully immerse. We need to get to the point where we are not double minded ... walking after the Spirit one minute ... then walking after the flesh the next.

Galatians 5 teaches us the problem with that ... this I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would (Galatians 5:16-17).

I love the verse in Romans 6 where God tells us What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? ... (vs 23).

When we're walking according to the Spirit and we are tempted ... is that temporary fleshly pleasure really worth the shame? And God is so patient with us ... always there when we finally turn back to Him ... He picks us up, dusts us off ... soothes our aching hearts.

sorry to have gone on so long ... just some musings ...
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You seem to have switched from a seal to discernment. A seal is an outward manifestation that authenticates an inward work of God. Discernment is spiritual understanding of the words or actions of another. The people coming to understand that Paul was changed wasn't the result of the Spirit falling upon him or him speaking in tongues. They discerned this by his speech and actions. The same was true of Jesus. They said He speaks as one who has authority and not like the scribes and Pharisees.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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reneweddaybyday said:
oh noooo!!! ... so sorry you lost your work.

I participate in a women's Bible study group at church and when we're finished with a study, I like to take a verse we learned about and make a little framed artwork to put in our home or take to work. My little gifts are not as detailed compared to your elaborate designs. I know it takes time to develop the right background ... the edging ... the font for the verse ... the colors ... I can't imagine how much effort went in to what you lost when your hard drive failed.

Do you now store your work on an external hard drive? ... or back your work up to a separate drive? that way you'll at least have your completed work stored ...

I like it when there's some heated discussion in a thread and someone brings up a verse that inspires you to set up another of your panels ... directs us back to the Scriptures ... especially when things are getting "hot" ... heh!!! like all siblings, we sure do like to poke each other ... ;)
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Thank you, Renewed, yes, I do have an external HD and keep all my work and saved images on there now... my daughter gave that to me also, heh, she has been very very good to me! Thankfully I had been saving most of the new ephemera to the HD because if I'd lost all the new backgrounds and everything else I'd amassed since getting the new laptop before it fried itself? My goodness, just collecting things takes a lot of time looking at all of everything made available, it is staggering! And it takes up a lot of space also, although the 1TB HD is now only about half full... and it is the working files that take up the most space... heh, it gets complicated trying to keep it all sorted and organized and then remembering what I've done and where it is or what verse goes with each images/figures haha it sure keeps me busy!

That is great that you are in a Bible study group... I hope you find it very fruitful!
 
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reneweddaybyday

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Magenta said:
That is great that you are in a Bible study group... I hope you find it very fruitful!
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My husband and I opened our home to group study for years ... I love small group Bible study.

I love how God reveals the truth of His Word and hearing from others how God works in bringing us to understand His Word ... there is so much depth in Scripture.

I was listening to the radio the other day and the DJs were talking about an incident that had happened ... one of the DJs was going on vacation with his family and he had borrowed a jogging stroller from a friend. On the drive to their destination, one of the wheels came off the stroller and was lost. The guy didn't know about the wheel until he reached his destination ... he thought he'd have to replace the stroller when he returned from the trip. However, on the way home, he saw someone on the side of the road with a flat tire and stopped to help him ... and guess what he found when he pulled over??? ... the wheel to the stroller !!! ... how amazing is that? if he would not have stopped to help the guy, he'd have had to lay out some dough to replace his friend's stroller ... now all he was out was the use of the stroller when he was on vacation!!! :cool: ... what a coincidence (wink, wink) ...
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reneweddaybyday

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Cameron143 said:
You seem to have switched from a seal to discernment. A seal is an outward manifestation that authenticates an inward work of God.
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so you do not believe Paul was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise from the time he was born again???




Cameron143 said:
Discernment is spiritual understanding of the words or actions of another. The people coming to understand that Paul was changed wasn't the result of the Spirit falling upon him or him speaking in tongues. They discerned this by his speech and actions.
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"his speech and actions" ... would that not be an "outward manifestation that authenticates an inward work of God" ???

and the unbelieving Jews who sought to slay Paul ... did they receive "discernment" through "spiritual understanding of the words or actions" of Paul ... which then caused them to want to kill Paul? In all probability, the sadducees and pharisees who went after Paul would have known him when he was part of their group ... Paul had received letters from the high priest when he was on his way to Damascus to persecute the believers there.




Cameron143 said:
The same was true of Jesus. They said He speaks as one who has authority and not like the scribes and Pharisees.
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Paul was trained as a pharisee ...

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee


Paul had sat at the feet of Gamaliel ...

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


The sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise occurs the moment a person is born again. The Holy Spirit of promise is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession ... the born again believers belong to God ... God seals them as He is the Owner of the purchased possession.

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

someone spoke to us and told us the gospel of Christ ... we heard the gospel of Christ ... we trusted ... we believed ... we were sealed ... it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... at that point, we are the purchased possession (Eph 1:14) ... sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13) ... we belong to God the moment we are born again of Holy Spirit.
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Magenta

Magenta

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reneweddaybyday said:
My husband and I opened our home to group study for years ... I love small group Bible study.

I love how God reveals the truth of His Word and hearing from others how God works in bringing us to understand His Word ... there is so much depth in Scripture.

I was listening to the radio the other day and the DJs were talking about an incident that had happened ... one of the DJs was going on vacation with his family and he had borrowed a jogging stroller from a friend. On the drive to their destination, one of the wheels came off the stroller and was lost. The guy didn't know about the wheel until he reached his destination ... he thought he'd have to replace the stroller when he returned from the trip. However, on the way home, he saw someone on the side of the road with a flat tire and stopped to help him ... and guess what he found when he pulled over??? ... the wheel to the stroller !!! ... how amazing is that? if he would not have stopped to help the guy, he'd have had to lay out some dough to replace his friend's stroller ... now all he was out was the use of the stroller when he was on vacation!!! :cool: ... what a coincidence (wink, wink) ...
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Your Bible study sounds lovely, and it is wonderful that you have opened your home for that purpose, and great that your hubs participates also! I was involved in a home Bible study for quite a few years but that ended some time ago... they were a very progressive bunch and probably not saved for the most part but lovely people still the same and really seeking the Truth of God's Word even though, yes, they were blinded, which is something so many here seem unable to acknowledge about the natural man. When that ended after I got shingles, I became more involved with my own church's Bible study home groups and that was lovely, also, and they were relieved that I gave up the other as well. Any who... here is one of the panels I have been working on today:


Acts 15:10-11
:D
 
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brightfame52

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Just as the elects oneness in Adam bought their death, likewise and even more, their oness in Christ brings their resurrection from the dead.1 Cor 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

This includes their spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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reneweddaybyday said:
so you do not believe Paul was sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise from the time he was born again???





"his speech and actions" ... would that not be an "outward manifestation that authenticates an inward work of God" ???

and the unbelieving Jews who sought to slay Paul ... did they receive "discernment" through "spiritual understanding of the words or actions" of Paul ... which then caused them to want to kill Paul? In all probability, the sadducees and pharisees who went after Paul would have known him when he was part of their group ... Paul had received letters from the high priest when he was on his way to Damascus to persecute the believers there.





Paul was trained as a pharisee ...

Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee


Paul had sat at the feet of Gamaliel ...

Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.


The sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise occurs the moment a person is born again. The Holy Spirit of promise is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession ... the born again believers belong to God ... God seals them as He is the Owner of the purchased possession.

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

someone spoke to us and told us the gospel of Christ ... we heard the gospel of Christ ... we trusted ... we believed ... we were sealed ... it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... at that point, we are the purchased possession (Eph 1:14) ... sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13) ... we belong to God the moment we are born again of Holy Spirit.
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The promise of the Father is what the disciples were waiting for in Jerusalem in the upper room. The Holy Spirit came in great power and 3000 were added to the church. Pentecost was a one-off. It began the church. But that same kind of thing to a lesser degree happens throughout the book of Acts where the Spirit is given with power and a supernatural response is found in believers. This is the baptism with the Spirit and is done by Christ Himself, just as John the Baptist said...he will baptize with the Holy Ghost.
I can see that no matter what I show you that you will not consider it. While believers are indwelt with the Spirit at the onset of salvation, the baptism with the Spirit is a separate operation of the Spirit which can occur anytime after belief. And while it can occur nearly simultaneously with salvation, that is not generally the rule for today.
Your words indicate that you conflate the 2 operations and that you have not truly experienced the baptism of the Spirit. I hope you will consider what I have shared. There is more to experience of God than you have come to know. I do suggest you read Joy Unspeakable by Martyn Lloyd Jones. It's an incredible book.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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Cameron143 said:
The promise of the Father is what the disciples were waiting for in Jerusalem in the upper room. The Holy Spirit came in great power and 3000 were added to the church. Pentecost was a one-off. It began the church.
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Ephesians 1:13 indicates it is Holy Spirit of promise ... the verse affirms it is the same Holy Spirit as what was poured out on Day of Pentecost.

Do you think believers today receive a different Holy Spirit than what was received on Day of Pentecost?




Cameron143 said:
I can see that no matter what I show you that you will not consider it. While believers are indwelt with the Spirit at the onset of salvation, the baptism with the Spirit is a separate operation of the Spirit which can occur anytime after belief. And while it can occur nearly simultaneously with salvation, that is not generally the rule for today.
Your words indicate that you conflate the 2 operations and that you have not truly experienced the baptism of the Spirit. I hope you will consider what I have shared. There is more to experience of God than you have come to know. I do suggest you read Joy Unspeakable by Martyn Lloyd Jones. It's an incredible book.
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I understand what you are saying concerning the baptism of the Spirit. I just do not see that you have provided the proof needed to corroborate your claim that the baptism of the Spirit equals the sealing of the Holy Spirit ... or that the sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs at some later time than when a person hears/trusts/believes/sealed.

On the other hand, I have provided more than enough information to support my claim that the sealing of the Holy Spirit relates to ownership:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon definition of sphragizō as used in Ephesians 1:13:

τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, passive, Ephesians 1:13​


Below is from ISBE:

God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Eph 1:13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Ownership, security and authentication are implied in the words, "The firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19). The seal of God on the foreheads of His servants (Rev 7:2-4) marks them off as His own, and guarantees their eternal security, whereas those that "have not the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:4) have no such guaranty.​


The context of the verse itself refers to "the purchased possession" having been sealed:

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The born again one is the purchased possession ... the seal of the Holy Spirit is placed in the born again one.


Here is a description of a sermon by Martyn Lloyd Jones (bold mine):

Can a Christian ever lose their salvation? What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? This term of “being sealed” is used three times in Scripture. Throughout history, seals have been used to certify, authenticate, and demonstrate ownership over something. It also provides an element of security. How does this concept of a seal relate to the life of a Christian? Those who are followers of Jesus Christ have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, who acts as a certificate and authenticator that He lives in the Christian and submits to God’s purpose and plan. To be sealed by the Holy Spirit also means to have the security of belonging to Christ and an eternal inheritance. He has sealed His people, and thus they are secured as His possession. In this sermon titled “The Sealing and the Earnest,” Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones explains that part of this security is the Spirit in advance of the promise to be given in full at a later time. What does this mean? This advance of the Holy Spirit is a pledge given by God that He will give the rest of the inheritance to His people when they go to live with Him. Though they can be sealed by the Holy Spirit, they can still grieve Him, as Dr. Lloyd-Jones duly notes. To avoid this, Christians must be willing to live lives in a way that gives full control to God and runs from sin.​

The link takes you to the sermon itself and you can listen to it.
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Cameron143

Cameron143

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reneweddaybyday said:
Ephesians 1:13 indicates it is Holy Spirit of promise ... the verse affirms it is the same Holy Spirit as what was poured out on Day of Pentecost.

Do you think believers today receive a different Holy Spirit than what was received on Day of Pentecost?





I understand what you are saying concerning the baptism of the Spirit. I just do not see that you have provided the proof needed to corroborate your claim that the baptism of the Spirit equals the sealing of the Holy Spirit ... or that the sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs at some later time than when a person hears/trusts/believes/sealed.

On the other hand, I have provided more than enough information to support my claim that the sealing of the Holy Spirit relates to ownership:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon definition of sphragizō as used in Ephesians 1:13:

τινα τῷ πνεύματι and ἐν τῷ πνεύματι, respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, passive, Ephesians 1:13​


Below is from ISBE:

God by His Spirit indicates who are His, as the owner sets his seal on his property; and just as documents are sealed up until the proper time for opening them, so Christians are sealed up by the Holy Spirit "unto the day of redemption" (Eph 1:13; 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22). Ownership, security and authentication are implied in the words, "The firm foundation of God standeth, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his" (2 Tim 2:19). The seal of God on the foreheads of His servants (Rev 7:2-4) marks them off as His own, and guarantees their eternal security, whereas those that "have not the seal of God on their foreheads" (Rev 9:4) have no such guaranty.​


The context of the verse itself refers to "the purchased possession" having been sealed:

Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The born again one is the purchased possession ... the seal of the Holy Spirit is placed in the born again one.


Here is a description of a sermon by Martyn Lloyd Jones (bold mine):

Can a Christian ever lose their salvation? What does it mean to be sealed by the Holy Spirit? This term of “being sealed” is used three times in Scripture. Throughout history, seals have been used to certify, authenticate, and demonstrate ownership over something. It also provides an element of security. How does this concept of a seal relate to the life of a Christian? Those who are followers of Jesus Christ have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, who acts as a certificate and authenticator that He lives in the Christian and submits to God’s purpose and plan. To be sealed by the Holy Spirit also means to have the security of belonging to Christ and an eternal inheritance. He has sealed His people, and thus they are secured as His possession. In this sermon titled “The Sealing and the Earnest,” Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones explains that part of this security is the Spirit in advance of the promise to be given in full at a later time. What does this mean? This advance of the Holy Spirit is a pledge given by God that He will give the rest of the inheritance to His people when they go to live with Him. Though they can be sealed by the Holy Spirit, they can still grieve Him, as Dr. Lloyd-Jones duly notes. To avoid this, Christians must be willing to live lives in a way that gives full control to God and runs from sin.​

The link takes you to the sermon itself and you can listen to it.
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Martyn Lloyd Jones has far more to say on the subject than what you shared. And I've never argued against ownership. What I have shared is the difference in the operation of the Spirit, not the Spirit Himself. And Martyn Lloyd definitely sees Ephesians 1 as the baptism of the Spirit and 1 Corinthians 12 as the indwelling of the Spirit. To say otherwise is to misrepresent his words. I know personally that this is so from reading Joy Unspeakable. So you should do a little more research before you continue to misrepresent him.
But as I said, you are going to continue to believe as you do regardless of what I share. This is lamentable as there is great blessing of God you will not pursue.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

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Cameron143 said:
you should do a little more research before you continue to misrepresent him.
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I did not misrepresent Martyn Lloyd Jones ... I merely bolded and underlined the point I have been making (that the sealing of the Holy Spirit relates to ownership). I copied directly from the description of the teaching given at the link. The exact same description can be found at the website "MLJ Trust":
https://www.mljtrust.org/sermons/great-biblical-doctrines/the-sealing-and-the-earnest/

The issue is at what point is the believer sealed ...

I believe the believer is sealed the moment he or she is born again.

You believe the believer is sealed possibly the moment he or she is born again for some ... or at some later point in time for some others.

I have now listened to 3 teachings presented by Martyn Lloyd Jones:


None of these teachings states that the sealing of the Holy Spirit referred to in Ephesians 1:12-14 occurs at some point later than when the believer is born again ... the teaching "Spirit Baptism and Filling" points out that baptism of the Spirit is the initial experience ... and filling is a continuous action of the Holy Spirit within the believer ... and my understanding is that this continuous filling occurs as the believer matures in his or her walk in the Lord Jesus Christ. As we mature, we have greater capacity which is then filled ... continuous filling ... what do you think my moniker (reneweddaybyday) refers to? it is the continuous working of God in the life of the born again one – the outward is weak and perishing ... the inward is renewed day by day. Every day God fills us in order that we may live that day in God's provision for us (that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us) ... all to His glory.

2 Corinthians 4:

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.




Cameron143 said:
But as I said, you are going to continue to believe as you do regardless of what I share.
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I believe the sealing take place at the time the believer is born again.

I have shared my understanding of the Scripture ... hear/trust/believe/sealed ... God lays it out Scripturally so we can understand. We can know without any shadow of doubt that we are sealed the moment we are born again and that means we belong to God from that moment on and into eternity. And in our earthly walk from and after the time we are born again, the Holy Spirit continuously works within us so that we are equipped to handle everything we face in this lifetime.

Please share your Scripture which supports your claim that the sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs at some point later than when the believer is born again or that the baptism of the Spirit which you claim is a later spiritual experience in the life of the born again believer is the same as the sealing of the Holy Spirit.




Cameron143 said:
This is lamentable as there is great blessing of God you will not pursue.
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I do not believe you know me well enough to determine what "great blessing of God" I have pursued or not pursued.

And please keep in mind that in this lifetime we will never know even as also [we] are known (1 Corinthians 13:12). In this lifetime there will always be more to learn about God, about the Lord Jesus Christ, about the Holy Spirit, about who we are and what we have in the Lord Jesus Christ. God even tells us the riches of Christ are unsearchable ... we will never come to the end of the riches bestowed upon us in the Lord Jesus Christ. :cool:
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Cameron143

Cameron143

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reneweddaybyday said:
I did not misrepresent Martyn Lloyd Jones ... I merely bolded and underlined the point I have been making (that the sealing of the Holy Spirit relates to ownership). I copied directly from the description of the teaching given at the link. The exact same description can be found at the website "MLJ Trust":
https://www.mljtrust.org/sermons/great-biblical-doctrines/the-sealing-and-the-earnest/

The issue is at what point is the believer sealed ...

I believe the believer is sealed the moment he or she is born again.

You believe the believer is sealed possibly the moment he or she is born again for some ... or at some later point in time for some others.

I have now listened to 3 teachings presented by Martyn Lloyd Jones:


None of these teachings states that the sealing of the Holy Spirit referred to in Ephesians 1:12-14 occurs at some point later than when the believer is born again ... the teaching "Spirit Baptism and Filling" points out that baptism of the Spirit is the initial experience ... and filling is a continuous action of the Holy Spirit within the believer ... and my understanding is that this continuous filling occurs as the believer matures in his or her walk in the Lord Jesus Christ. As we mature, we have greater capacity which is then filled ... continuous filling ... what do you think my moniker (reneweddaybyday) refers to? it is the continuous working of God in the life of the born again one – the outward is weak and perishing ... the inward is renewed day by day. Every day God fills us in order that we may live that day in God's provision for us (that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us) ... all to His glory.

2 Corinthians 4:

16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.





I believe the sealing take place at the time the believer is born again.

I have shared my understanding of the Scripture ... hear/trust/believe/sealed ... God lays it out Scripturally so we can understand. We can know without any shadow of doubt that we are sealed the moment we are born again and that means we belong to God from that moment on and into eternity. And in our earthly walk from and after the time we are born again, the Holy Spirit continuously works within us so that we are equipped to handle everything we face in this lifetime.

Please share your Scripture which supports your claim that the sealing of the Holy Spirit occurs at some point later than when the believer is born again or that the baptism of the Spirit which you claim is a later spiritual experience in the life of the born again believer is the same as the sealing of the Holy Spirit.





I do not believe you know me well enough to determine what "great blessing of God" I have pursued or not pursued.

And please keep in mind that in this lifetime we will never know even as also [we] are known (1 Corinthians 13:12). In this lifetime there will always be more to learn about God, about the Lord Jesus Christ, about the Holy Spirit, about who we are and what we have in the Lord Jesus Christ. God even tells us the riches of Christ are unsearchable ... we will never come to the end of the riches bestowed upon us in the Lord Jesus Christ. :cool:
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Like I said, you will believe as you like. Read the book Joy Unspeakable. You will actually learn what Martyn Lloyd Jones believed. You will also see he didn't limit the sealing of the Spirit to ownership, that the purpose of the baptism was meant as an outward demonstration to authenticate to the individual and observers of their position in Christ, and that he differentiates between the indwelling of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit. He also shows from the book of Acts that even in the time of the early church the two things didn't always occur simultaneously...Acts 19:2...have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Paul runs into some believers who had been saved so they were indwelt by the Spirit, but had yet to be baptized with the Spirit. Paul laid hands on them and the Spirit came upon them and spoke in tongues and prophesied.
You are free to respond but I won't be responding any further. I do appreciate the discussion and what you have shared. Thank you.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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reneweddaybyday said:
My husband and I opened our home to group study for years ... I love small group Bible study.

I love how God reveals the truth of His Word and hearing from others how God works
in bringing us to understand His Word ... there is so much depth in Scripture.
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Which book have you been studying lately?
 
R

reneweddaybyday

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Cameron143 said:
Read the book Joy Unspeakable. You will actually learn what Martyn Lloyd Jones believed. the sealing of the Spirit to ownership, that the purpose of the baptism was meant as an outward demonstration to authenticate to the individual and observers of their position in Christ, and that he differentiates between the indwelling of the Spirit and the baptism of the Spirit.
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I listened to 3 of his teachings that I could find on the stated subject ... Martyn Lloyd Jones does not corroborate your belief in the 3 teachings I listened to. Perhaps he does in the book you're peddling ... I read what I could find online and in the foreword I read that he had believed the born again believer was sealed by the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion but that he changed his mind. Perhaps the 3 teachings I listened to were taught prior to him having changed his mind.

Please provide the verse or verses in Scripture you rely upon to support your claim that the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place for some at the time they are born again but for others the sealing takes place at some later time.

Ephesians 1:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

imo, Ephesians 1:13 reveals what takes place for those who hear/trust/believe. They are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise ... not one of them remains unsealed ... otherwise the verse would read "after that ye believed, some were sealed ..." .

But the verse does not read that way.

I have gone above and beyond what most people would do in discussing this issue with you. I found 3 of his teachings and listened to all 3 ... I found the book you're peddling and read as much of it as I could find online.

Have you gone so far as to look at the sources I referenced? ... or have you decided that there's no need to consider them because Martyn Lloyd Jones says so. Does Martyn Lloyd Jones really claim what Scripture reveals? According to you, yes so no need to look at other reliable sources which indicate otherwise.




Cameron143 said:
He also shows from the book of Acts that even in the time of the early church the two things didn't always occur simultaneously...Acts 19:2...have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Paul runs into some believers who had been saved so they were indwelt by the Spirit, but had yet to be baptized with the Spirit. Paul laid hands on them and the Spirit came upon them and spoke in tongues and prophesied.
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If you read the record beginning in Acts 18:24, you'll see why the folks at Ephesus had not received the Holy Spirit ...

Acts 18:

24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

vs 24-25 – Apollos was a believer but had been taught only the baptism of John.

vs 26 – Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside privately and taught him the way of God more perfectly ... according to vs 28, they taught Apollos that Jesus was Messiah.

vs 28 – Apollos left Ephesus and went to Achaia and mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Apollos is mentioned in Paul's epistles (1 Cor 1:12; 3:4; 3:22; 4:6; 16:12; Titus 3:13).

vs 19:1-3 – Paul came to Ephesus and asked the folks if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed ... what did they believe? ... they believed the baptism of John.

vs 4-5 – John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus ... according to Romans 1:16 it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation unto those who believe ... were they born again under John's baptism if they were unaware of the gospel of Christ?


I do not believe Acts 19:2 supports your claim.

And I think we all could learn a lesson from the example of Apollos ...




Cameron143 said:
You are free to respond but I won't be responding any further. I do appreciate the discussion and what you have shared. Thank you.
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ok ... I appreciate the discussion as well ...
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