Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
- Thread starter LW97
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I am so sorry about the way that post turned out. I knew it was going to be confusing. I didn’t realize how it would be presented until I hit that “post reply” button. I am a “SENIOR” senior citizen 😊.and some of this technology is still difficult for my generation. I learned my lesson, though. I hope to not do that again. I’m glad you were able to figure it out.
I’m resisting digging into Gods word ? lol. This is the twilight zone
You seem to want to avoid the Bible at every turn so you can explain what you think about God and salvation.
Every scripture I’ve shown you from the Bible you have explained that the English language is week and I just don’t get it ….
😂 but I suppose I’ll continue “ resisting gods word “ and let you go on explaining there’s a different gospel than the Bible says because of course the English language is just too weak
I suppose we all need to just listen to your interpretations and get out of those flawed English bibles that you keep rejecting or we’ll never understand anything 😂
You seem to want to avoid the Bible at every turn so you can explain what you think about God and salvation.
Every scripture I’ve shown you from the Bible you have explained that the English language is week and I just don’t get it ….
😂 but I suppose I’ll continue “ resisting gods word “ and let you go on explaining there’s a different gospel than the Bible says because of course the English language is just too weak
I suppose we all need to just listen to your interpretations and get out of those flawed English bibles that you keep rejecting or we’ll never understand anything 😂
It’s different before he was rejected and killed and raised up
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
John 12:32 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Hearing the rhe truth forces a choice and reveals who we really are
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”
John 12:32 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
Hearing the rhe truth forces a choice and reveals who we really are
No such thing as a sheep who doesn't hear His voice and follow Him.
No such thing as a sheep who isn't His.
No such thing as a goat making themselves a sheep.
No such thing as a sheep making themselves a goat.
No such thing as a sheep whom He loses.
All this comes directly from what He says.
we aren't saved by works but by grace through faith.
No such thing as a sheep who isn't His.
No such thing as a goat making themselves a sheep.
No such thing as a sheep making themselves a goat.
No such thing as a sheep whom He loses.
All this comes directly from what He says.
we aren't saved by works but by grace through faith.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Have you read Hebrews 6:4-6?
“For it is IMPOSSIBLE, for those who were once ENLIGHTENED, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and have become PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD , and the powers of the age to come, if THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God and put Him to an open shame.”
1) these are Christian’s who the Holy Spirit, who is writing this, proves by saying these People have been enlightened ( by the word of God); they have tasted the heavenly gift of salvation and the good word of God—they know some things about the Bible; AND they have been Partakers of God’s Holy Spirit. Now, are you going to try to tell us these people were never saved? We have DIVINE TESTIMONY that they were as saved as any Christian ever has been.
BUT—2) they FELL AWAY. What?? I thought a saved person could not do that! They aren’t suppose to be able to do that, because God never lost anybody, and once God gets you you can’t EVER get away even if you deny him, reject Him, and I guess spit in His face! No way you are going to get away from Him even if you want to.
3) some people, who FALL AWAY, never repent. They NEVER come back, …….but it’s ok, because I know a doctrine that says they are going to be saved ANYWAy! In fact, according to THAT doctrine, people can crucify Jesus all over again and spit on Him, place a crown of thorns on Him and mock him, publicly
shame Him, all over again and they will still go to heaven and be rewarded just like the faithful Christians who have sacrificed for Him, loved Him, and dedicated their lives to Him. God makes no difference between the two—giving each of them the same reward—heaven. God is JUST isn’t He? That is God’s justice?
I hope you can see I am trying to demonstrate how evil this false doctrine is. It is a slap in Jesus’s face to say Christians can sin, live an ungodly life, reject Christ and still be saved. God does not teach any such thing!! God says a Saved person CAN fall away and when they do, they are putting Christ through the shame and suffering that he went through on the cross ALL OVER AGAIN! It’s NOT ok. God is JUST. He is FAIR. It would never be considered “fair” if God gave the same reward to people rebelling against Him as He does to the Ones who LOVE Him and live faithful lives. How is that FAIR? How is that RIGHT?
Please come out of this doctrine of Satan. He is the one luring you into a sense of “false security”. And how like the devil to tell you just what you want to hear—“you can sin and be saved anyway!” You can have your cake and eat it, too. Beware of a doctrine that doesn’t cost you anything!! That is not the doctrine of Christ.
2 John 8-9-“Whoever transgresses and does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ does NOT have God. ……If someone comes to you and does not bring THIS DOCTRINE ( the doctrine of Christ), do not greet him, nor invite him into your house, for he who greets him SHARES IN HIS EVIL DEEDS.”
-
1
- Show all
How many Christians do
How many Christians do you know who sin, live ungodly lives, and reject Christ? What about that description suggests such a one is saved?
All of the description given in Hebrews that you posted are true, but only external for those who fall away. Many may have been taught, fed or healed by Jesus. They may have been present at Pentecost. But while they may have been present when the Spirit was active thereby becoming a partaker of the work of the Spirit, it never says that they were partakers of the divine nature. And while it does say they were enlightened, it doesn't say they were known of Christ or received eternal life. Both of these seem to be assumed on your part.
All of the description given in Hebrews that you posted are true, but only external for those who fall away. Many may have been taught, fed or healed by Jesus. They may have been present at Pentecost. But while they may have been present when the Spirit was active thereby becoming a partaker of the work of the Spirit, it never says that they were partakers of the divine nature. And while it does say they were enlightened, it doesn't say they were known of Christ or received eternal life. Both of these seem to be assumed on your part.
-
1
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It has always seemed a very convenient doctrine to me to say of the Christian’s who return to sin, “ They never had truly saving faith anyway.” WASN'T it YOU, who said to me,
“ I have grave doubts that anyone here is of the caliber of deity, for even Satan himself can’t see into the hearts of men.”?
And yet, you claim to be able to “ see into the hearts of men” and determine that they were never saved!! Amazing!! Have you ever heard of Aesops’s fables—the story of the fox and the grapes? When the fox was unable to get the grapes what did he say? “Well, they were probably SOUR anyway.” Sounds an awful lot like what you say when you find a passage like 2 Peter 2:22 that doesn’t fit your false doctrine—you try to explain it away by saying, well, they weren’t ever saved in the first place”. Sour grapes. Amazing how you can look into their hearts and know that!
Let’s examine 2 Peter 2:20-22. Verse 20 says these people who have TURNED AWAY from Christ had at one time ESCAPED THE POLLUTION OF THE WORLD, they had KNOWN THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Verse 21- THEY HAD KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is Divinity’s assessment of their spiritual condition at one time. Does that sound like to you that they were never really saved?? You may claim to be able to make a judgement call about their salvation but This is God speaking and He KNOWS. You don’t! And God disagrees with your claim that they were never saved. He plainly tells us THEY WERE SAVED!!….. BUT, they were overcome by Satan (verse 19) and they were AGAIN ENTANGLED in the pollutions of the world. You see, it wasn’t that they had ALWAYS been entangled in sin, as it would have been if they had NEVER BEEN SAVED.. No! They had ESCAPED that for awhile but They WENT BACK to it AGAIN—a second time. This clearly shows that they at one time were saved— before they returned to sin. Now, God says their latter end is worse for them than at the beginning. At the beginning, they were not saved and they were LOST eternally. They were not going to heaven because they were unsaved people. But now, their end is even Worse. I dont know how things could be worse than not going to heaven but I’ll take His word for it. This clearly means they are not going to heaven, now that they have returned to the world. THey are not going to be saved. So says God. But look at verse 21– they had at one time KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!! GOD SAYS THEY TURNED AWAY FROM IT. And from the holy commandment delivered to them. Are you STILL contending that these people were never saved? YOU said, and I quote, “THEY NEVER HAD SALVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.” Sir, that is not true and I think you know it. I’m sure the ones reading this post, after seeing ALL of what Peter said, know it. I hope they do. Once saved/ always saved is a doctrine of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 BEWARE.
“ I have grave doubts that anyone here is of the caliber of deity, for even Satan himself can’t see into the hearts of men.”?
And yet, you claim to be able to “ see into the hearts of men” and determine that they were never saved!! Amazing!! Have you ever heard of Aesops’s fables—the story of the fox and the grapes? When the fox was unable to get the grapes what did he say? “Well, they were probably SOUR anyway.” Sounds an awful lot like what you say when you find a passage like 2 Peter 2:22 that doesn’t fit your false doctrine—you try to explain it away by saying, well, they weren’t ever saved in the first place”. Sour grapes. Amazing how you can look into their hearts and know that!
Let’s examine 2 Peter 2:20-22. Verse 20 says these people who have TURNED AWAY from Christ had at one time ESCAPED THE POLLUTION OF THE WORLD, they had KNOWN THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST. Verse 21- THEY HAD KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is Divinity’s assessment of their spiritual condition at one time. Does that sound like to you that they were never really saved?? You may claim to be able to make a judgement call about their salvation but This is God speaking and He KNOWS. You don’t! And God disagrees with your claim that they were never saved. He plainly tells us THEY WERE SAVED!!….. BUT, they were overcome by Satan (verse 19) and they were AGAIN ENTANGLED in the pollutions of the world. You see, it wasn’t that they had ALWAYS been entangled in sin, as it would have been if they had NEVER BEEN SAVED.. No! They had ESCAPED that for awhile but They WENT BACK to it AGAIN—a second time. This clearly shows that they at one time were saved— before they returned to sin. Now, God says their latter end is worse for them than at the beginning. At the beginning, they were not saved and they were LOST eternally. They were not going to heaven because they were unsaved people. But now, their end is even Worse. I dont know how things could be worse than not going to heaven but I’ll take His word for it. This clearly means they are not going to heaven, now that they have returned to the world. THey are not going to be saved. So says God. But look at verse 21– they had at one time KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!! GOD SAYS THEY TURNED AWAY FROM IT. And from the holy commandment delivered to them. Are you STILL contending that these people were never saved? YOU said, and I quote, “THEY NEVER HAD SALVATION IN THE FIRST PLACE.” Sir, that is not true and I think you know it. I’m sure the ones reading this post, after seeing ALL of what Peter said, know it. I hope they do. Once saved/ always saved is a doctrine of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1 BEWARE.
-
1
- Show all
It must have been many years ago when I saw an episode of Oprah Winfrey where she was basically claiming herself to be a Christian and yet was vociferously denying the fact that Jesus is the only way to God/the Father... so yes, it does seem that there are those who are Christian in name only and do not subscribe to the doctrines that define our faith.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
It was The Holy Spirit who said they had been partakers of Him. Not me. Can an unsaved person have the Holy Spirit?? Is that what you believe? You are saying an UNSAVED person, who is living in sin, has never repented of his sins, has never confessed Christ, who we don’t know if they even believe in Christ, who is serving SATAN, can be a PARTAKER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?? I am amazed!! It’s almost like we are not even reading the same Bible. And by the way, you have perverted the word of God by “adding”the word “work” in verse 4. They were not partakers of His “work”, they were PARTAKERS OF HIM!. That means they had the Holy Spirit in them! I would like you to show me from the scriptures, 1 unsaved person who had the Holy Spirit living in him.
further, you think that even though God says they have been enlightened by the gospel, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT of salvation, they were still unsaved? Just because God doesn’t say it to YOUR satisfaction, the way, YOU think He should have said it, you are not going to believe it? I am sorry for you.
There are many, many Christian’s. Who have left the faith, both in the Bible and today. But that doesn’t prove anything! That is a very WEAK argument! What matters is that God, in His word, over and over again, tells us, in words plain enough that anyone who wants to know the truth can understand, that a child of God can so live as to be lost.
further, you think that even though God says they have been enlightened by the gospel, and have TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT of salvation, they were still unsaved? Just because God doesn’t say it to YOUR satisfaction, the way, YOU think He should have said it, you are not going to believe it? I am sorry for you.
There are many, many Christian’s. Who have left the faith, both in the Bible and today. But that doesn’t prove anything! That is a very WEAK argument! What matters is that God, in His word, over and over again, tells us, in words plain enough that anyone who wants to know the truth can understand, that a child of God can so live as to be lost.
-
2
- Show all
I'm saying partaking of the Holy Spirit doesn't mean indwelling of the Spirit. Indwelling of the Spirit makes one a partaker of the divine nature. That is different than partaking in an event that the Spirit is manifested. For example, anyone who was there the day of Pentecost would have partaken in what the Spirit did that day. They may have been among those who thought the disciples were drunk. They would have heard the disciples speaking in their language. They would have heard a Spirit led sermon. Yet, only 3,000 were saved. So if you weren't one of those 3,000, you partook in the operation of the Spirit, but were not indwelt by Him. You did not become a partaker of the divine nature. They never belonged to Christ.
When the book of Hebrews was written, there were many still living who would have experienced Jesus in life. No doubt they were taught, fed, and healed by Him. Jesus Himself said that the present generation would experience the demise of Jerusalem. Since Jesus operated in the power of the Spirit, as did the disciples, the manifestation of power by the Spirit was well-known and experienced by them. This doesn't mean they were saved.
Many in our time associate themselves with the church for a variety of reasons who are not truly saved. They know the pastor, the people, the liturgy, and the hymnal. Still many do not know God. It's interesting that in Luke 16 where Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was familiar with father Abraham, but not Father God. Unfortunately, there are many today in the same estate.
When the book of Hebrews was written, there were many still living who would have experienced Jesus in life. No doubt they were taught, fed, and healed by Him. Jesus Himself said that the present generation would experience the demise of Jerusalem. Since Jesus operated in the power of the Spirit, as did the disciples, the manifestation of power by the Spirit was well-known and experienced by them. This doesn't mean they were saved.
Many in our time associate themselves with the church for a variety of reasons who are not truly saved. They know the pastor, the people, the liturgy, and the hymnal. Still many do not know God. It's interesting that in Luke 16 where Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was familiar with father Abraham, but not Father God. Unfortunately, there are many today in the same estate.
-
2
- Show all
NASB
Heb 6:4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
[e] 6 Or committed apostasy; i.e., renounced the faith
Looks pretty plain to me.
Heb 6:4For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
[e] 6 Or committed apostasy; i.e., renounced the faith
Looks pretty plain to me.
-
1
- Show all
op: salvation can be lost?
According to men, but not According To The Lord Jesus Christ, Who:
1) Never Knew: "them, who are Not His Own!" (Matthew 7:21-23 AV)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ” (online)
2) Has Always Known: "them who Are His Own!"
Of course men still yet, "pursue, persist and prefer" this:
Amen.
According to men, but not According To The Lord Jesus Christ, Who:
1) Never Knew: "them, who are Not His Own!" (Matthew 7:21-23 AV)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ” (online)
2) Has Always Known: "them who Are His Own!"
(2 Timothy 2:19 cp Ephesians 1:4-6 AV)
Of course men still yet, "pursue, persist and prefer" this:
"Jesus has always known them who He has never known", eh?
Amen.
-
1
- Show all