Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.
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My point is Paul’s teaching the church how to be saved like Jesus did all we have to do is stop rejecting all of it . if we accept it and let what they are teaching sink in it’s going to become our belief is the idea
we have to accept what we learn , alot of it is stuff we didn’t already think or know but as we accept it God can change us through faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
you see like for instance if I’m reading oauls epistle to the Ephesians and then I get to chapter five what I can’t do is reject it and say it’s not true or not for the church or not part of the gospel I need to accept it and learn as I’m able to grasp it and grow thereby in faith
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:1
we need to let those warnkngs move is to better actions and to repent of things we become aware of that are sinful . It’s a learning process everything begins here
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
the rest is about understsnding the gospel and salvation we need to accept everything especially the things we don’t want to accept but that are really clear to us that’s how Gid changes us through his word same word tbat did this
“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:3 KJV
the gospel is that word of light and life
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
John 1:1, 4, 9
and so if we believe the gospel
“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV
We need to do this and not worry about the rest until we learn
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
I’m just saying it’s a process wherby we hear the gospel and believe and grow in faith but it doesn’t work if we insist nothing we learn is true only this or that which we accept
we have to accept what we learn , alot of it is stuff we didn’t already think or know but as we accept it God can change us through faith
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
you see like for instance if I’m reading oauls epistle to the Ephesians and then I get to chapter five what I can’t do is reject it and say it’s not true or not for the church or not part of the gospel I need to accept it and learn as I’m able to grasp it and grow thereby in faith
“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
Ephesians 5:1
we need to let those warnkngs move is to better actions and to repent of things we become aware of that are sinful . It’s a learning process everything begins here
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
the rest is about understsnding the gospel and salvation we need to accept everything especially the things we don’t want to accept but that are really clear to us that’s how Gid changes us through his word same word tbat did this
“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
Genesis 1:3 KJV
the gospel is that word of light and life
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
John 1:1, 4, 9
and so if we believe the gospel
“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”
2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV
We need to do this and not worry about the rest until we learn
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
I’m just saying it’s a process wherby we hear the gospel and believe and grow in faith but it doesn’t work if we insist nothing we learn is true only this or that which we accept
Beckworth, if you read what I actually said, you would see that I specifically stated that the belief in the ability to lose one's salvation would require a truly born again believer to become UNborn again, unless you can show to me a verse anywhere in the Bible that portrays born again believers cast into Hell.
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The Gospel is very simple:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Believing that is all it takes for salvation. When that faith is truly resident within one, he or she becomes a new creation, and going back to all those sins is simply not going to happen, so those are non-issues in the life of a true believer.
If you or anyone else here thinks he or she knows someone who has done this, then I would simply have to ask that person or persons how they think they know the heart of any other person to say that they became unsaved, which simply is not possible. It is the unsaved who will remain unsaved until they leave that life of sins you described above.
So, once again, what's your point, because thus far you have not provided a legitimate proof that anyone can possibly lose their salvation...if that is your point. Fornicators cannot possibly expect to enter into Heaven, except that they put their faith in the Gospel so that they can THEN become a new creation in Christ Jesus.
MM
MM
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Believing that is all it takes for salvation. When that faith is truly resident within one, he or she becomes a new creation, and going back to all those sins is simply not going to happen, so those are non-issues in the life of a true believer.
If you or anyone else here thinks he or she knows someone who has done this, then I would simply have to ask that person or persons how they think they know the heart of any other person to say that they became unsaved, which simply is not possible. It is the unsaved who will remain unsaved until they leave that life of sins you described above.
So, once again, what's your point, because thus far you have not provided a legitimate proof that anyone can possibly lose their salvation...if that is your point. Fornicators cannot possibly expect to enter into Heaven, except that they put their faith in the Gospel so that they can THEN become a new creation in Christ Jesus.
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It’s hard to discuss with you oaul is not tea in anyone to reject the things Jesus preached and said we’re the gospel to the exclusion of his death and resurrection. He’s not saying “ nothing else to the gospel but this don’t believe what Jesus or any other apostle said and don’t believe the rest of this letter just only say Jesus died and rose …..that’s not what he’s saying he’s saying the first thing he preached to them was …..jesus does and rose . Not that nothing else applies it’s hard to discuss with “gospel of revolutionary grace believers “ where it creates a different gospel tbat just says “ your saved by grace forget what God said about everything it’s impossible really
“So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”
2 Peter 3:14-18
Can find the one and only gospel here in these books which is what Paul’s discussing
the gospel according to mark
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God….Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:1, 14-15 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 19-20
the gospel according to Matthew
“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
Matthew 1:1 KJV
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
Matthew 1:21-23 KJV
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
The gospel according to Luke
“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.”
Luke 1:1-4 KJV
The gospel according to John
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
John 1:1, 3-4, 9-14, 16-18
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
Acts 28:30-31 KJV
“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
“So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”
2 Peter 3:14-18
Can find the one and only gospel here in these books which is what Paul’s discussing
the gospel according to mark
“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God….Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
Mark 1:1, 14-15 KJV
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”
Mark 16:15-16, 19-20
the gospel according to Matthew
“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
Matthew 1:1 KJV
“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
Matthew 1:21-23 KJV
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20 KJV
The gospel according to Luke
“Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, that thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.”
Luke 1:1-4 KJV
The gospel according to John
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him; In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
John 1:1, 3-4, 9-14, 16-18
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
Matthew 24:14
“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
Acts 28:30-31 KJV
“how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?”
Hebrews 2:3-4 KJV
You seem to love copy and paste repetitiveness, and large lettering. None of that is impressive.
The grammar in your opening statement is almost impossible to understand, so I will leave that to you to restate.
Also, I never said anything about rejecting what Jesus preached. I clearly stated that it is ALL true, with the difference being that not everything stated by Jesus applies to us today. For example:
Luke 5:13-14
13 And he put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Nobody today is required to go and offer up any offering of animals when they are healed, whether by miraculous means or through natural healing mechanisms in our bodies put there by the same Lord who healed the lepers.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
See? Jesus spoke highly for the keeping of the Law of Moses, but we all know that is not TO us today, and here you are claiming that Jesus taught the same Gospel He had given to Paul for the Gentiles in the dispensation of grace yet to come, which was kept hidden in God from the beginnings of the world.
Dude, you simply are not grasping the enormity of your error, and that's your problem, not mine. Your resistance to digging deeper into the word of God, the Bible, that's on your shoulders. Not mine.
MM
The grammar in your opening statement is almost impossible to understand, so I will leave that to you to restate.
Also, I never said anything about rejecting what Jesus preached. I clearly stated that it is ALL true, with the difference being that not everything stated by Jesus applies to us today. For example:
Luke 5:13-14
13 And he put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Nobody today is required to go and offer up any offering of animals when they are healed, whether by miraculous means or through natural healing mechanisms in our bodies put there by the same Lord who healed the lepers.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
See? Jesus spoke highly for the keeping of the Law of Moses, but we all know that is not TO us today, and here you are claiming that Jesus taught the same Gospel He had given to Paul for the Gentiles in the dispensation of grace yet to come, which was kept hidden in God from the beginnings of the world.
Dude, you simply are not grasping the enormity of your error, and that's your problem, not mine. Your resistance to digging deeper into the word of God, the Bible, that's on your shoulders. Not mine.
MM
The Gospel of the Kingdom as preached by Jesus and His disciples being different from the Gospel of Grace, we see in that where one CAN lose out in obtaining salvation at the end of their lives if they fail to "endure", and under grace and the renewing of the inner man, we are sealed by Holy Spirit unto the culmination.
Matthew 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The key term is "endure," which in the context and grammatical construct of that verse is said to have the following meaning according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, is what SHALL lead to their salvation, future tense, not present tense. Endure in the above passage has this meaning:
"2. to remain i. e. abide, not recede or flee; tropically,
a. to persevere: absolutely and emphatically, under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ (R. V. commonly endure), Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13"
The effort one must exert and exercise in the face of life's challenges is what will afford salvation for those under the Kingdom Gospel. The Gospel of Grace has no such demands. If the Gospel of Grace Paul preached had such demands, then Paul would be guilty of the sin of omission in his inspired writing of his epistles, but we have no reason to believe that Paul gave only part of the Gospel. His audience was people who did not have the four Gospels neatly tucked into the hip pocket of their garments. They had only portions or pieces of Paul's epistles to them to be read from home to home when they met together.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That context says nothing about having to endure unto the end so that one then SHALL be saved. No.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Under this Gospel of Grace, we have what is not ever spoken of within the Gospel of the Kingdom since those under that latter Gospel must ENDURE, but under the Gospel of Grace, given saving faith:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Jesus never spoke one word of this during His ministry of the Kingdom Gospel to His hearers because this sealing was never a part of that sealing under His Gospel, and was sealed up in God from the beginning of the world until revealed to Paul.
MM
Matthew 24:13-14
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The key term is "endure," which in the context and grammatical construct of that verse is said to have the following meaning according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, is what SHALL lead to their salvation, future tense, not present tense. Endure in the above passage has this meaning:
"2. to remain i. e. abide, not recede or flee; tropically,
a. to persevere: absolutely and emphatically, under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ (R. V. commonly endure), Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13"
The effort one must exert and exercise in the face of life's challenges is what will afford salvation for those under the Kingdom Gospel. The Gospel of Grace has no such demands. If the Gospel of Grace Paul preached had such demands, then Paul would be guilty of the sin of omission in his inspired writing of his epistles, but we have no reason to believe that Paul gave only part of the Gospel. His audience was people who did not have the four Gospels neatly tucked into the hip pocket of their garments. They had only portions or pieces of Paul's epistles to them to be read from home to home when they met together.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
That context says nothing about having to endure unto the end so that one then SHALL be saved. No.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
Under this Gospel of Grace, we have what is not ever spoken of within the Gospel of the Kingdom since those under that latter Gospel must ENDURE, but under the Gospel of Grace, given saving faith:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Jesus never spoke one word of this during His ministry of the Kingdom Gospel to His hearers because this sealing was never a part of that sealing under His Gospel, and was sealed up in God from the beginning of the world until revealed to Paul.
MM
Hi, I just started reading this thread and started from this page and saw your blank post replying to MM, so I expanded and read MM's post, which was very good until I thought he has gone cuckoo and started contradicting himself lol
Just wanted to point out your response is in his quote and also signed off with MM. Not that its a big problem for others who are following thread, being I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed I had to do a double take and find MM's original post, to reassure myself all is normal.
Haha thought the world had gone tipsy turvy.
Anyway in your view does one have to be born again or saved first before they become ineligible for eternal life?
For example does everyone's name written in the book of life appear there before they are saved or after?
Or can someone who has never repented and their whole life is rejecting of Christ be disqualified of eternal life?
Just wanted to point out your response is in his quote and also signed off with MM. Not that its a big problem for others who are following thread, being I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed I had to do a double take and find MM's original post, to reassure myself all is normal.
Haha thought the world had gone tipsy turvy.
Anyway in your view does one have to be born again or saved first before they become ineligible for eternal life?
For example does everyone's name written in the book of life appear there before they are saved or after?
Or can someone who has never repented and their whole life is rejecting of Christ be disqualified of eternal life?
, post: 5353743, member: 305060"]I fail to understand how you arrived at the thought that I was saying that the hay, wood and stubble would be saved.
You know you are right!! I totally missed what you were saying. You see Paul was speaking to the PEOPLE he and Apollos converted verse 5. In verse 8 he says that he and Apollos would each receive his own reward according to each man’s work. Meaning the work they had done in making converts to Christ. Verse 9 Paul and Apollos are “fellow workers” and the people they converted to Christ represents their “work.” The people are God’s field; he says in verse 9 YOU ( the people) are God’s building. And when you build a building, you lay the foundation first. That’s what he did; he calls himself a “master builder. He made the first converts.(people). Then he said “ another” builder adds to it or builds more on that foundation. That’s what Apollos did—he watered what Paul had planted. This is all figurative language. More converts are being “built”. In that spiritual building. Verse 12 says some converts are like gold, silver, and precious stones. Those are “people” that are being added to the building. Remember verse 9 he says the people are the building. The word “work” in verses 13, 14, and 15 is referring to the ones who are converting people and adding them to the building. So the “work” is that of Paul, Apollos, and any other preacher or person who is teaching and saving souls. The “work” is NOT the deeds of the people being saved— it’s the labor of Paul and Apollos.
Your mistake is in thinking that the gold, silver, and precious stones represents the “work of those being saved. No, the people are the ones being represented as gold, silver and precious stones. They are precious to Christ. They are holy, and righteous and faithful. But there are also people in God’s building that are like wood, hay, and stubble. This is very much like the parable of the sower. Some people obey the gospel (the seed) and grow for a little while and then “die”. The parable of the sower says sometimes it’s because the cares of the world “chokes” them or they are “shallow” they have no “root” but for whatever reason they aren’t profitable to Christ. These are the people in God’s building that are wood, hay, and stubble, so when the “fire” comes, the PEOPLE who are made of those materials—wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up. It is not talking about “THEIR” works, it’s talking about them! The works in this story are only referring to Paul and Apollos or some other minister’s works—they are not the people’s works. So when you said, “the wood, hay and stubble will be burned up but the individual will be left”, we’re you not calling the wood, hay, and stubble the works of the people and not the people themselves?? The word “works” in these verses from verse 5 to
Verse 15, is always referring to the ministers doing the converting and not to the people being converted.
You know you are right!! I totally missed what you were saying. You see Paul was speaking to the PEOPLE he and Apollos converted verse 5. In verse 8 he says that he and Apollos would each receive his own reward according to each man’s work. Meaning the work they had done in making converts to Christ. Verse 9 Paul and Apollos are “fellow workers” and the people they converted to Christ represents their “work.” The people are God’s field; he says in verse 9 YOU ( the people) are God’s building. And when you build a building, you lay the foundation first. That’s what he did; he calls himself a “master builder. He made the first converts.(people). Then he said “ another” builder adds to it or builds more on that foundation. That’s what Apollos did—he watered what Paul had planted. This is all figurative language. More converts are being “built”. In that spiritual building. Verse 12 says some converts are like gold, silver, and precious stones. Those are “people” that are being added to the building. Remember verse 9 he says the people are the building. The word “work” in verses 13, 14, and 15 is referring to the ones who are converting people and adding them to the building. So the “work” is that of Paul, Apollos, and any other preacher or person who is teaching and saving souls. The “work” is NOT the deeds of the people being saved— it’s the labor of Paul and Apollos.
Your mistake is in thinking that the gold, silver, and precious stones represents the “work of those being saved. No, the people are the ones being represented as gold, silver and precious stones. They are precious to Christ. They are holy, and righteous and faithful. But there are also people in God’s building that are like wood, hay, and stubble. This is very much like the parable of the sower. Some people obey the gospel (the seed) and grow for a little while and then “die”. The parable of the sower says sometimes it’s because the cares of the world “chokes” them or they are “shallow” they have no “root” but for whatever reason they aren’t profitable to Christ. These are the people in God’s building that are wood, hay, and stubble, so when the “fire” comes, the PEOPLE who are made of those materials—wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up. It is not talking about “THEIR” works, it’s talking about them! The works in this story are only referring to Paul and Apollos or some other minister’s works—they are not the people’s works. So when you said, “the wood, hay and stubble will be burned up but the individual will be left”, we’re you not calling the wood, hay, and stubble the works of the people and not the people themselves?? The word “works” in these verses from verse 5 to
Verse 15, is always referring to the ministers doing the converting and not to the people being converted.
Those are good questions—hard—but good. I will try my best to give you book, chapter, and verse for my answers.
I checked my Bible app to be sure I got all God has to say about this so I will give you all the info I have on hand. My first thought was that only the saved got their names in the Book of life and that the unsaved have never had theirs there. Revelation 13:8 seems to suggest that to me—“all who dwell on the earth will worship him ( Satan) whose names HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN IN THE LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE.” BUT, then I read Psalms 69:28. It seems to be talking about very wicked people and David says, “Let them be blotted out of the book of the living.” So that makes me wonder if all people start out in the book of the living (as babies) and then If they are wicked, God blots them out. But that raises MORE questions. At what time in their life are they blotted out? When they die or before? And are there 2 books—1) book of the living ( on earth) where everyone who has ever been born has their name recorded and another 2) book called the Book of Life (eternal life) where only the saved are listed. Truthfully, I don’t know. Here are some other scriptures that talk about the “Book of Life.”
Philippians 4:3
Revelation 3:5
Revelation 17:8
Revelation 20:12-15
Revelation 21:7
Revelation 22:19
When I don’t know the answer to a question, I always fall back on Deuteronomy 29:29–“ The SECRET things belong to God, but the things revealed belong to us and our children.” 😂. I guess God hasn’t told us everything. But I believe He has told us all we NEED to know.
To question # 1, technically no. Babies are pure and sinless and have not been “saved” by God’s plan of salvation but if they die while still in this “safe” state, they will be saved and inherit eternal life just like an adult who was saved and has been faithful to God all his life. King David had an infant son who died when he was just 7 days old. 2 Samuel 12:23. David said, I shall go to him; but he shall not return to me.” But I know you are asking about adults and I would have to say, no. One does not have to be saved first to be ineligible for eternal life. Mark 16:16 Jesus said that to be saved, a person must believe and be baptized. Or they will be condemned. It follows that a person who never does this 1) has never been saved and 2) will be condemned. Also, you have atheist who go their whole life and never believe in God or His Son Jesus. Hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossible to please God and John 8:24 says unless a person believes in God they will die in their sins. These people were NEVER SAVED and missed heaven, so no, these people did not have to be saved first in order to miss eternal life.
And to the last question-can someone who has not repented and rejected Christ miss eternal life. YES! Luke 13:3,5 Jesus says if you don’t repent you will PERISH. Acts 17:30 God commands EVERYONE TO REPENT. And, again, John 8:24 specifically says if you don’t believe in Jesus you will die in your sins and that is the same as being lost and missing heaven. John 12:48 Jesus says “He who rejects me and does not receive my words has that which will judge him—the word that I speak will judge him in the last day (judgement). I’m sure I have not exhausted every scripture on thus ; I will have to do some more studying; but I hope this helps. Thank you for your encouragement.
I wasn’t aware that I “proclaimed with certainty” any definition of the word “if”. I don’t need to. The MEANING IS VERY clear to even the most “simple minded person that there is a “condition”if you want to reign with Christ; and he tells you what it is—ENDURANCE. Just like the sentence before that one. Is it hard to understand that if you want to live with Him ( in heaven), you have to “die” with Him ( while on earth)?? This is in perfect harmony with Romans 6:6, 8 and 2 Tim.2:11. If that is true ( and it is), then the reverse is true also. The reverse of those statements is: if you do NOT endure, you will Not reign with Him. That means you can lose your salvation if you do not remain faithful and endure to the end of your life. Jesus only promised to give a crown to those who were”faithful until death.” Revelation 3:10. That fits perfectly. 1 Thess. 5:21 says we are to “prove” ALL things. This is pretty strong evidence that anyone can Lose their salvation if they do not remain “faithful” and “endure to the end of their life.
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Read the context to see who are the ones the Father gives to Him. Verse 37- All the Father gives him are the ones who “COME TO ME”. Those, He said, He would not cast out. Read the next verse—verse 40–Everyone who believes in Him may have everlasting life. “And I will raise Him up at the last day. So the ones who will be raised up at tge last day and have eternal life are the ones who believe in Him, AND come to HiM. Of course these are saved. They are Jesus’s faithful followers. What you need to find is an example of some Christians who are being wicked or unfaithful to Christ but that Jesus says are going to heaven ANYWAY. It’s not in John 6.
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You've overlooked the question of who will endure and the reasons they do so. You presumed that such endurance is solely an individual's undertaking through their own will. Instead, it by God and not by man, as the verses I believe I shared with you in prior posts demonstrate. They convey that it is not of human means. I am convinced the verses are quite explicit in explaining it, yet it seems you choose to gloss over them. Those who endure do so solely because it is God's will for them to endure. They cannot, not, endure. Here are those verses again. Let me try to illuminate some of the points made in them.
#1) In verse 4, the term "inheritance" is used. Like any inheritance, recipients only receive it because they are designated as beneficiaries, similar to the standard provisions of a will. Likewise, a will's testator may include whomever they wish for any reason they desire. Once the testator passes away, the conditions, stipulations, and beneficiaries of the will are irrevocably established. The beneficiaries, once named, cannot be changed or removed, not even by their own volition, which they would naturally never desire to do. Regarding Christ's will of salvation, Christ is its testator. The Lamb's book of life represents this will, and the names inscribed within it were recorded as beneficiaries before the world was formed.
#2) The confirmation that the beneficiaries of the will (referred to as "you" in verse 4) have been determined is found by the word "reserved" (also in verse 4). The use of "reserved" ensures that the estate cannot be lost to them, nor can they be separated from it, guaranteeing their inheritance to them.
#3) The "who" in verse 5 (not the singing group), links the "you" of verse 4 to the "kept by the power of God" in verse 5.
#4) Because Christ designated them as beneficiaries of His will, God ensures through His power, that they receive Christ's estate—the inheritance of eternal salvation and eternal life.
Therefore, it seems to me impossible that those made beneficiaries could be stripped of their status (since Christ the testator has died already) that they, through their own actions, could lose their share in His estate.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[Eph 1:11 KJV]
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[Heb 9:15-17 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[Gal 3:15 KJV]
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
#1) In verse 4, the term "inheritance" is used. Like any inheritance, recipients only receive it because they are designated as beneficiaries, similar to the standard provisions of a will. Likewise, a will's testator may include whomever they wish for any reason they desire. Once the testator passes away, the conditions, stipulations, and beneficiaries of the will are irrevocably established. The beneficiaries, once named, cannot be changed or removed, not even by their own volition, which they would naturally never desire to do. Regarding Christ's will of salvation, Christ is its testator. The Lamb's book of life represents this will, and the names inscribed within it were recorded as beneficiaries before the world was formed.
#2) The confirmation that the beneficiaries of the will (referred to as "you" in verse 4) have been determined is found by the word "reserved" (also in verse 4). The use of "reserved" ensures that the estate cannot be lost to them, nor can they be separated from it, guaranteeing their inheritance to them.
#3) The "who" in verse 5 (not the singing group), links the "you" of verse 4 to the "kept by the power of God" in verse 5.
#4) Because Christ designated them as beneficiaries of His will, God ensures through His power, that they receive Christ's estate—the inheritance of eternal salvation and eternal life.
Therefore, it seems to me impossible that those made beneficiaries could be stripped of their status (since Christ the testator has died already) that they, through their own actions, could lose their share in His estate.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
[Eph 1:11 KJV]
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[Heb 9:15-17 KJV]
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[Gal 3:15 KJV]
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
No. Those who come to Him are those given to Him by the Father, becoming those who believe in Him, they do so because they have been taught of the Father. If they are not taught neither are they able to believe. The Father only teaches those whom He had chosen.
[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to answer 
appreciate the honesty.
I have to admit to being a little surprised at your answer, usually those who believe one can lose their salvation hold a die hard position that only when saved are they written into the book of life.
Usually those who hold to eternal security believe all people are written in the book of life (even from the foundation of the world) as God desires all to be saved and that none should perish, draws all people to Himself etcetera
I notice that people use the verses that being blotted out of the book of life as proof one can lose their salvation, Which was why I was wondering about your position on this. Obviously it shows nothing to those who believe in eternal security as they would expect unbelievers to be blotted out anyway.
But thanks for the info ill go and look deeper into it.
appreciate the honesty.I have to admit to being a little surprised at your answer, usually those who believe one can lose their salvation hold a die hard position that only when saved are they written into the book of life.
Usually those who hold to eternal security believe all people are written in the book of life (even from the foundation of the world) as God desires all to be saved and that none should perish, draws all people to Himself etcetera
I notice that people use the verses that being blotted out of the book of life as proof one can lose their salvation, Which was why I was wondering about your position on this. Obviously it shows nothing to those who believe in eternal security as they would expect unbelievers to be blotted out anyway.
But thanks for the info ill go and look deeper into it.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Notice this does not say all who come to Him will the Father give to Him.
It says all given to Him will come to Him.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice this doesn't say no will the Father draw unless they come to Him. It says no one can come to Him unless the Father draws them.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Right?
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John 6:12
So when they were filled, He said to His disciples,
"Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
It's right there.
John 10:25-28
Jesus answered them,
"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Notice that He does not say they are not His sheep because they do not believe.
He says they do not believe because they are not His sheep.
Now, none of the fragments will be lost, none of those given to Him are lost, no one can snatch them out of His hand, and none of them have become His sheep by any of their own doing but because they have been given to Him by the Father.
so you demand to know what happen when one sheep wanders off? does the Good Shepard abandon them?
i think you already know.
Matthew 18:12-14
What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that [sheep] than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
He goes after it. He lays down His life for it. does He fail to find it? Nope. Not one fragment is lost, no wolf can snatched it out of His hand, no one can flee from His presence. Luke 15:4-5
What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found [it,] he lays [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing.
John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
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