Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

You wouldn't be Catholic by any chance would you?

Not saying that is a bad thing but it would explain some of your thinking.

He is only here to confuse things and prevent those who want to gain truth from doing so...

Then who are the nations in Rev.19 that Jesus is pouring out His indignation on? The following is just prior to the beginning of the Millennium. Do you think Jesus is doing all this (Rev.19:11-21) from heaven?

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against

I do not deny the martyred trib saints will be raised at the Second Coming as part of the First Resurrection.

He's suggesting the [faulty] idea of a "general resurrection" (except for the 3.5-yr [second half of Trib] beheaded martyrs ALONE); at which time "judgment OF ALL" takes place at the GWTj.



Supposedly that "believers"/saints (of all times--EXCEPT the final 3.5 yrs) WILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO "the second death / lake of fire" based on their works...

... and prolly after THAT, they get to spend eternity climbing up and down some ladder of "payment" for their sins... or faults... and eventually be "released" (the "length of time" depending on the level of their "works"). Not the first time I've heard such an explanation.

Satan is restrained for a thousand years and then released.

The timing of Satan's release is at the end of the millennium.

Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out
to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog...

Chapter nineteen is the overview of the end times.

Chapter twenty is the finer detail and the timing within that overview.

The tribulation saints are important to the Lord and they reign with Christ
for a thousand years. Do you have a problem with that?

The GWTJ is after the end of the millennium.

The book of life is opened and if your name is written in there, then you go upstairs.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No works no salvation.

Paul states you were created for good works.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
so that we would walk in them.

How could anyone claim to be a Christian without some level of good works?

I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

sawdust said:
I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

What you're saying is confusing, because we are given the very image of Christ standing on that mountain immediately beside the ancient city of Jerusalem:

"sawdust" isn't saying that he himself holds such a view.

"sawdust" is perceiving that "Inquisitor" does hold such a view, and is addressing that matter with him, in that post you've quoted of his.

Yeah, I should have stipulated that I was speaking generally.

Okay, got ya.



Another problem with "Inquisitor's" view, is the following verse (and passage) about the "5th Seal" martyrs (those "killed" in the FIRST half of the trib, just as Matt24:9 speaks of ['kill']... because the "Seals" ARE "the beginning of birth PANGS").

Rev6:11 says (of the 5th Seal martyrs) - "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."



...which verse "Inquisitor" would have to change (to correspond with his view), to say instead:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, and oh yeah, [AND rest yet] ALSO for a thousand years additional to that also, clear till the GWTj time-slot."


NOT! lol

What you're saying is confusing, because we are given the very image of Christ standing on that mountain immediately beside the ancient city of Jerusalem:

Revelation 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Those out there whom I've run across at other times, and who habitually spiritualize scripture into making it say what they want, they claim the Lamb is standing on the Zion in Heaven. The problem with that transplanting the imagery into Heaven is that John saw the Lamb on that mountain on earth because he then shifts focus into Heaven, from where the voice comes. The language gives ample indication that the placement of the two are not one and the same. There's Mt Zion, and then there's the voice from another place.

The 144,000 will minister on this earth, not in Heaven. What would be the purpose of that, I have often asked?

We also have Zecheriah 14:4, with Christ standing on the Mount of Olives, which is right there next to the ancient city of Jerusalem. That's not speaking of the time of His earthly ministry.

MM

"sawdust" isn't saying that he himself holds such a view.

"sawdust" is perceiving that "Inquisitor" does hold such a view, and is addressing that matter with him, in that post you've quoted of his.

I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

You can not lock onto a thought.
You only lock onto a word that catches your attention... and then go any way which may, as you may.




2 Thessalonians 2:5-7

That's a Post-Tribulation return, the man of lawlessness is revealed and destroyed.

Then we are raptured with the dead in Christ.

Yet, we still have the millennial reign of Christ to follow.

So we are in heaven but the unbelievers will inhabit the earth, for another thousand years.

So is Jesus in heaven or does He reign on earth with some unknown camp of saints?

So when do you think that Jesus returns?

When Jesus returns that is the time of the new earth.

That's a Post-Tribulation return, the man of lawlessness is revealed and destroyed.