Convince me there is non-alcoholic wine in the Bible/communion

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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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#61
Nov 28, 2023
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#61
Magenta said:
Psalms 104: 14 to 15 He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate - bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladden's human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His mighty arm: "Never again will I give your grain as food for your enemies, and never again will foreigners drink the new wine for which you have toiled; but those who harvest it will eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather the grapes will drink it in the courts of my sanctuary."

Jesus made over a hundred gallons of wine in his first recorded miracle in the Gospel of John. If it was such a sin to drink, I doubt very much that He would have done that.
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Again, there is a difference between Israelite wine which is diluted with water (mildly intoxicating) vs the unfermented wine (grape juice) Jesus made (which is not intoxicating). Even the dictionary tells you wine can be either fermented or unfermented. Folks have to understand that Jesus is life and not death. The juice is symbolic of His holiness and purity and not death and decay, which is what highly intoxicating beverages would symbolize. If you know about the process of today’s alcoholic wine, you would understand it is a process of death that produces alcohol.


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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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#62
Magenta said:
Psalms 104: 14 to 15 He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate - bringing forth food from the earth: wine that gladden's human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Isaiah 62:8-9 The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His mighty arm: "Never again will I give your grain as food for your enemies, and never again will foreigners drink the new wine for which you have toiled; but those who harvest it will eat it and praise the Lord, and those who gather the grapes will drink it in the courts of my sanctuary."

Jesus made over a hundred gallons of wine in his first recorded miracle in the Gospel of John. If it was such a sin to drink, I doubt very much that He would have done that.
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Also, consider that highly intoxicating beverages generally do not have nutritional labels on them because they do not offer any nutritional value. They are in effect a mild poison that your immune system has to fight against. Are you comparing our Lord to such deadly beverages? Alcohol is one of the top killers here in America.

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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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#63
Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. The blood symbolizes life and death. Jesus is life and death.

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C

ChristRoseFromTheDead

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#65
Bible_Highlighter said:
The juice is symbolic of His holiness and purity and not death and decay
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Grape juice is actually associated with God's wrath, so in that sense you are correct. God's holiness destroys the wicked.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:18-20​
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#67
Jun 30, 2015
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#67
And so, once again, this discussion devolves into two camps: those who correctly understand that Scripture does not demand complete abstinence, and those who believe that abstinence is so highly recommended that they can't comprehend that "new wine" is anything but fresh grape juice.

For the record, Deuteronomy 14:26 says "Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice." (NIV)

And for the KJV-only crowd:

"And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

Now, since Scripture is clear that alcohol IS NOT forbidden, have a drink (whatever you prefer), stop arguing about it, and enjoy the weekend.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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john832 said:
God condemns drunkenness but social drinking is perfectly acceptable. Wonder why Christ was accused of being a winebibber?
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a charge that certainly would not have been made if He lived as a complete teetotaler.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Bible_Highlighter said:
Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. The blood symbolizes life and death. Jesus is life and death.

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He has power over life and death, but in Him is no death.

death is separation from Him, ignorance of Him: the scriptures define Him as The Life and define eternal life as knowing Him.
 
J

john832

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May 31, 2013
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posthuman said:
He has power over life and death, but in Him is no death.

death is separation from Him, ignorance of Him: the scriptures define Him as The Life and define eternal life as knowing Him.
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Death is death.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

the word for death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

The idea of the immortality of the soul began with the lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 
posthuman

posthuman

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john832 said:
Death is death.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

the word for death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

The idea of the immortality of the soul began with the lie...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
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there seem to be two separate definitions of "death" in this one statement - -

John 11:25-26​
Jesus said to her, ​
"I AM the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"​
​
?

even though we die, we will live,
also we will always live and never die?

are we talking about physically live/die or spiritually?
or both?
or both, separately?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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john832 said:
The idea of the immortality of the soul
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Ecclesiastes 12:7​
Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.​
​
not seeing any annihilation here... :coffee::unsure:
 
M

MeowFlower

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#74
Aug 25, 2024
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#74
In the Bible there is alcoholic,fermented,wine and non-alcoholic,or grape juice.

Alcohol wasn't, isn't a sin. Drunkenness is.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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this is a topic that recurs quarterly and always has the same result, as @Dino246 put.

the consensus is the scripture doesn't anywhere outright condemn alcohol and that John 2, Acts 2 and Pesach and 1 Corinthians 11 are all referencing alcohol-content beverages.
a minority ignore the reality of clear exegesis and make up their own imaginary, unsupportable interpretations - and for them, the facts be damned.

i don't think further discussion is historically worth having.
 
Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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#77
john832 said:
Well, one of the blessings to be enjoyed at the Feast of Tabernacles is strong drink...

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

God condemns drunkenness but social drinking is perfectly acceptable. Wonder why Christ was accused of being a winebibber?
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Again, both the Bible and history teach that the Israelites and other countries in the region had mixed their fermented wine with several parts of water. So it was mildly intoxicating but it was not like the wines you would buy today. So they bought wine fully fermented and mixed it with water. Strong wine was used in cases where a person was in extreme pain by flesh wound before they died (to ease the pain). The passage above here says nothing of strong wine or strong drink as being used as a part of the feast of tabernacles.

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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Grape juice is actually associated with God's wrath, so in that sense you are correct. God's holiness destroys the wicked.

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:18-20​
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Yes, I am aware of this. The Bible does sometimes mention certain things in both a positive way, and a negative way.
This is nothing new to any student of the Bible. Here are a few other examples:

Fire:
  • Positive: Fire is often a symbol of God’s presence, purification, and guidance. For instance, God appeared to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:2) and led Israel with a pillar of fire (Exodus 13:21).
  • Negative: Fire also represents judgment and destruction. In Revelation 20:15, fire symbolizes the lake of fire, a place of final judgment. Similarly, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire due to their sin (Genesis 19:24).

Water:
  • Positive: Water symbolizes life, cleansing, and spiritual renewal. Jesus offers "living water" to the Samaritan woman (John 4:10-14), representing eternal life. Baptism also uses water as a sign of purification and new birth (1 Peter 3:21).
  • Negative: Water can also represent judgment or chaos. The Great Flood (Genesis 7) brings destruction due to human sin. Additionally, in the prophetic books, turbulent waters often symbolize nations in turmoil or divine judgment (e.g., Isaiah 17:12-13).

The Sword:
  • Positive: In Hebrews 4:12, the Word of God is described as a "double-edged sword," powerful and able to discern truth. It symbolizes God’s word as a tool for teaching, correction, and spiritual strength.
  • Negative: A sword can also represent conflict, division, and judgment. Jesus warns that His coming would bring "a sword," or division, within families (Matthew 10:34). It can symbolize the judgment of God, as in Revelation 19:15, where Christ wields a sword against the nations.

The Rock:
  • Positive: Rocks often symbolize stability, refuge, and God’s faithfulness. God is described as the "Rock of our salvation" (Psalm 95:1), and Jesus is the "cornerstone" on which believers build their lives (1 Peter 2:6).
  • Negative: Rocks or stones can also symbolize stumbling or judgment. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus says those who reject Him will be "broken to pieces" by the stone, implying judgment for unbelief.

The Snake/Serpent:

  • Positive: In Numbers 21:9, Moses lifts up a bronze serpent in the wilderness to heal the Israelites, symbolizing salvation and foreshadowing Christ’s crucifixion (John 3:14-15).
  • Negative: The serpent is also a symbol of Satan and deception, as seen in Genesis 3, where the devil appears as a serpent to tempt Eve, leading to the Fall of humanity.

So again, grape juice (or unfermented wine) can also be represented as a good thing.


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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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Dino246 said:
I find it disgusting and reprehensible that you make such accusations against a brother in Christ over a disputable matter.
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Believe it or not, there are self-proclaimed Christians who are Democratic (or Left) and for the woke agenda.


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Bible_Highlighter

Bible_Highlighter

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Nov 28, 2023
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#80
posthuman said:
this is a topic that recurs quarterly and always has the same result, as @Dino246 put.

the consensus is the scripture doesn't anywhere outright condemn alcohol and that John 2, Acts 2 and Pesach and 1 Corinthians 11 are all referencing alcohol-content beverages.
a minority ignore the reality of clear exegesis and make up their own imaginary, unsupportable interpretations - and for them, the facts be damned.

i don't think further discussion is historically worth having.
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I have discussed this topic on other forums over the past decade before. I believe it is worth a discussion and I am constantly learning on the topic as I revisit the topic with a fresh perspective. For example, my old position on 1 Corinthians 11:21 was that it was not referring to alcoholic wine but grape juice, but I now see this as referring to the Israelite wine that is unfermented wine diluted by water. Granted, I believe the Lord made grape juice with his miracle because Jesus' shed blood symbolizes life and not death. If you know anything about alcoholic beverages, you know it is a process of death and not life. The grape juice symbolizes life because it is pure and good for you.



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