I did not change the subject, I simply exposed the side of your theology that you and most Calvinist will try to hide.
Your post was about the guarantee that the unchosen are damned for eternity regardless of the death of Christ. You are just trying to divert people from seeing this.
There is no emotion in my exposing the flip side of your argument.
You cannot present your theology about the inability of the chosen accepting their fate without also accepting the inability of the unchosen accepting their fate.
Your argument is absurd. To suggest that these 13 words proves that once faithful always saved is not theology but philosophy.
The author of Hebrews is by no means advancing a theology of salvation on election or an unchangeable fate. Talk about reading into a verse.
There is no argument to dodge. You are simply seeing your theology in this verse. If Paul was attempting to convince the reader that their fate is not in their hands, this is a bizarre way to do it.
You are again simply rehashing the notion that mankind is not responsible for their own fate. You can spin this anyway you wish but it goes against the desire that God has for all men to know Him.
Whatever your understanding of "perfect" is in these questions, it is not binding Christians to a fate beyond their control.
The work that was done on the cross was never meant to proclaim the fate of the chosen or the unchosen. It was done to proclaim the Good News that all men can have the hope of salvation.
Calvinism teaches the opposite.
Lamar, calling the plain declarations of the Holy Spirit “absurd philosophy” is not a refutation. You are dismissing the very texts that define what Christ's death accomplished.
I am not arguing that man has no responsibility. I am arguing that
man's response does not make Christ's redemption effective. Rather, Christ's redemption secures the very saving responses God requires.
Let's let the texts speak.
1. Hebrews 10:14 says Christ perfected His people forever
You say it is absurd to use this passage in arguing for eternal security.
But the Holy Spirit says:
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
Notice the basis:
“by one offering.”
And notice the duration:
“for ever.”
The surrounding context makes the point even stronger:
“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” —Heb. 10:10
“After he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.” —Heb. 10:12
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” —Heb. 10:14
“Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.” —Heb. 10:18
This is not a tentative sacrifice waiting to discover whether man will make it successful.
One offering.
Once for all.
Perfected forever.
No more offering for sin.
If Christ's one offering actually perfected a person forever, that person cannot finally perish.
2. Romans 5:10 gives the same Legal → Final sequence
Paul says:
“For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”
Look at what Paul actually says.
We were enemies.
We were reconciled.
The reconciliation was by the death of His Son.
Being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Paul distinguishes Christ's accomplished work in His
death from the subsequent saving work accomplished through His
life.
That fits the Five Phases:
Legal: Christ reconciles through His death.
Vital: the Spirit gives spiritual life.
Practical: the regenerated sinner believes, repents, and obeys.
Final: Christ brings His people to complete salvation.
The sinner's later faith does not travel backward and make the Cross effective.
3. And this is why “man must respond” does not answer the argument
I have never denied that man must believe.
He must.
He must repent.
He must obey.
He must persevere.
But the question is:
Where do those responses ultimately come from?
Scripture does not leave them as independent contributions supplied by autonomous man.
Paul says:
“For unto you it is given... to believe on him.”
—Philippians 1:29
Acts says:
“Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”
—Acts 11:18
And Paul says:
“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
—Philippians 2:13
So yes:
The sinner believes.
The sinner repents.
The sinner obeys.
The sinner perseveres.
But God gives the faith.
God grants repentance.
God works in the sinner both
“to will and to do.”
That means Christ's redemption does not merely purchase a possibility that man may or may not complete.
Christ's redemption secures the very obedience God requires.
Titus 2:14 says Christ:
“gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
Look at the purpose:
gave Himself → redeem → purify → zealous of good works.
The practical obedience of His people is among the saving blessings His self-giving was appointed to accomplish.
4. You are reducing the Cross to “opened access”
You said the Cross successfully “opened up access for forgiveness.”
But Hebrews 9:12 says something much stronger:
“Having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
Christ did not merely open access to redemption.
He obtained eternal redemption.
And Ephesians 1:7 explains that redemption:
“In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.”
So the biblical picture is not:
Christ died → forgiveness became possible → man supplies faith → redemption becomes effective.
It is:
Christ died → Christ obtained eternal redemption → forgiveness is secured → the Spirit gives life → God gives faith and repentance → the sinner believes and obeys.
Faith does not complete Christ.
Christ's redemption produces the response.
5. Your statement that the Cross merely gives “hope of salvation” changes the nature of redemption
You said:
“The work that was done on the cross... was done to proclaim the Good News that all men can have the hope of salvation.”
But the question is not whether the Gospel offers hope.
Of course it does.
The question is
what Christ actually accomplished by His death.
The Bible says:
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us.”
—Galatians 3:13
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.”
—1 Peter 2:24
“Having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
—Hebrews 9:12
“For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”
—Hebrews 10:14
“When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
—Romans 5:10
Those are accomplished realities—not merely possibilities.
6. So this is not about removing man's responsibility
You keep portraying my position as though I believe man is a robot with no responsibility.
That's not my position.
The regenerated sinner
willingly believes.
He
willingly repents.
He
willingly obeys.
He
willingly perseveres.
But his willingness does not originate independently of God's grace.
God gives the life.
God gives the faith.
God gives repentance.
God works the will and the doing.
The sinner willingly responds.
That does not diminish human responsibility.
It magnifies divine grace.
The real question
So let's stop changing the subject to “fate,” “libertarian free will,” or the non-elect.
The question is about
Christ's Cross.
If Christ actually:
bore the sins of His people,
obtained eternal redemption for them,
reconciled them to God by His death,
and perfected them forever by His one offering,
then how can those same people finally perish?
And if your answer is that Christ merely made salvation possible and the decisive outcome depends upon man's independently supplied faith and perseverance, then you have changed
accomplished redemption into
potential redemption.
I am not taking responsibility away from man.
I am giving the efficacy of salvation entirely to Christ.
Christ's death accomplishes the Legal work.
The Spirit accomplishes the Vital work.
God gives faith and repentance.
The regenerated sinner believes, repents, and obeys.
Christ brings His people to final glory.
The sinner's obedience does not make Christ's redemption succeed. Christ's redemption secures the obedience of His people.
God gives the life. God gives the faith. God gives repentance. God works the will and the doing. God gives perseverance. The sinner willingly responds. Therefore, man's obedience is real, but it is the fruit of God's saving work—not the condition that makes Christ's redemption effective.
That is not “fate beyond control.”
That is sovereign grace and an accomplished redemption.
The Verdict
