Man imputed Jesus with sin on the cross, not God.

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Everlasting-Grace said:
How else did he who knew no sin become sin?

How else did he pay for my sin?

show me the word trinity in the bible. or do you reject that biblical truth also?
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I believe that Jesus is God. I believe that the Father is God. I believe that the Holy Spirit is God. I believe God is one unanimous government over His creation. There is no power struggle between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one.

There are many models of "trinity". If I said I believed in trinity, the next question would be which kind of trinity? And you would argue whether my model of trinity is correct one? I follow Jesus: God became human at the conception of Jesus. I aim to walk with the risen Jesus in the Way He taught.
 
PaulThomson said:
Humans "give up the ghost" every day, who were assaulted.
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Um. No

Humans die. Jesus left his body.. willingly
PaulThomson said:
And they become homicide victims. Are you saying that they were not killed by men because they gave up any struggle to stay alive? So, they were no murdered?
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lol. please try to keep up

they did not give up the ghost. they died.
 
PaulThomson said:
Correct. God did not require anyone to be punished for our sins. Jesus was killed out of/because of/on account of/as a result of humanity's sins performed by His contemporaries against Him. He was punished unjustly by men for sins they falsely attributed to Him.
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actually yes God did

please study the law.Even adam and eve required an animal sacrifice

If God did not require sacrifice, Jesus died in vein
 
PaulThomson said:
Where are you getting your certainty from? Babies die in the womb, having done neither good or evil, that is, not having sinned. Their deaths are not a result of their own sins.

Deu 1:39
And your little ones, of whom ye said, They shall be a prey, and your children, who this day know neither good nor evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

om 9:11
the children indeed being not yet born, or having done anything good or worthless (that the purpose of God according to election might abide, not of works, but of him that calls),

What does "died spiritually" mean to you, and where is that definition or description of "died spiritually" in scripture ?

Jesus said man can kill the body, but not the soul. He never talked about spirits dying. Jesus' body and soul died. Nowhere do we read of His spirit dying.
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read three posts ago.

you did not die and were ressurected by Grace

you were dead. and was made alive.
 
PaulThomson said:
I believe that Jesus is God. I believe that the Father is God. I believe that the Holy Spirit is God. I believe God is one unanimous government over His creation. There is no power struggle between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are one.

There are many models of "trinity". If I said I believed in trinity, the next question would be which kind of trinity? And you would argue whether my model of trinity is correct one? I follow Jesus: God became human at the conception of Jesus. I aim to walk with the risen Jesus in the Way He taught.
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thanks for proving the word does not have to be word for word or even in the bible to be true.
 
ATG said:
A common Christian tradition is that God imputed our sins to His Son Jesus on the cross, so that He would pay the price of our sins instead of us.

First, No Scripture ever says that the righteous God imputes any evil to the righteous, especially not the sins of those doing unrighteousness. And by no means to His own Son Jesus Christ the righteous, who never sinned, nor knew any sin in His own soul and life.

What is the Scripture, that is abused by men to say. that God did impute sin, and esteem Jesus legally guilty, and smitten by law?

Isa 53:34:
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Who is it, that Scriptures says will impute Jesus Christ with sin, and esteem Him smitten of God on the cross, as if by law of God? God Himself, or man? Only man, not God.

And so, we see the prophecy was not of God Himself esteeming Jesus guilty of sin unto death by law, but only of sinful men believing He was guilty of blasphemy and smitten by law:

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Only men imputed Jesus with sin of blasphemy, and esteemed Him guilty by law and smitten of God on the cross. Not God Himself at all...And only some men still believe by false tradition, the lie that God imputed His Son with sin, and made Him legally guilty of sin unto death.

Jesus Christ was the Christ and Son of God on earth, and not a blasphemer, even though all men believed otherwise at the cross, and in death. No one went to His tomb on the third day to watch Him rise again, as He said, but only to anoint His dead body...
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Verse 4 does say we esteemed Him stricken. That part is true. Men called Him a blasphemer. Men passed the death sentence. Nobody sat at the tomb expecting a resurrection. All of that stands.

Then the chapter keeps talking.

“The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
“It pleased the Lord to bruise him.”
“He shall bear their iniquities.”
“He bare the sin of many.”

This not the crowd. That is the prophet naming the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:13, and 1 Peter 2:24 say the same thing in different words. If your case is “no verse ever has God putting sin on Jesus,” those verses end the argument in one round.

The thing you are actually right about is narrower, and that is the version that holds.

Jesus never became a sinner. He never knew sin in His own soul. The Father did not look at the Son and suddenly judge Him as a blasphemer. The Sanhedrin’s verdict was a lie. God did not join that lie.

What the cross was: the righteous One bearing sin He did not commit, as a sacrifice, not as a convert to guilt. The guilt was ours. The offering was His. Men thought God was crushing a criminal. God was accepting a lamb.
 
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What I have yet to notice in this discussion is 1st century context. What was known by the general public in the 1st century that we do not easily know today and how is it relevant?
 
Davidstarr said:
If a person does not allow the innocent "Lamb of God" to take over his (or hers) burden of sin then said person cannot survive into the new world.
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God is never burdened with sin, but only sinners, except they repent or be destroyed forever.

Only sinful angles and men are burdened with the degredation and death of their own sinning.



Davidstarr said:
The whole point (throughout the OT and NT) was for a substitute to be given to bear the penalty of sin. One who was innocent and without sin (flawless/without blemish), dying so the guilty may live.
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The whole tradfitional lie is that a person's sinning can be miraculously transferred to an animal, another person, or even the sinless Son of God Himself.

Symbolizing sin and trespass as something that can be transported here and there, from one soul to another, is mystical foolishness.

Sinners can believe that God 'puts' their sin to someone else, like a postage stamp, but every person bears the burden, built, and death of their own sinning.

And being justified by faith alone in such nonsense is secured destruction.
 
Cameron143 said:
Nope. Our sins were laid to His account.
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2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Our sins were laid on His body by us, when we striped, beat, and crucified Him on a cross.

If anyone wants to believe, that the righteous Father inputed any sin, much less any other person's sinning, to His righteous Son's soul; Who then died to the Father by having sin, is a false accuser of the righteous Father.

The Father had no sin imputed to His son, who had no sin; And only the soul that sins, shall die toward God.



Cameron143 said:
The reason we know this to be true is because He died.
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Jesus died bodily, not spiritually in His righteous soul.

God did not die on a cross, but only the Son's body.

And He died by our sinning against His body, and shedding His innocent blood.

Every man that sinned is guilty of Jesus' death on the cross, and if we continue to sin, we crucify Him to ourselves again.
 
Cameron143 said:
The wages of sin is death.
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The wages of sin is death of the soul toward God.

The mortal body dies naturally.

Any man that believes bodily death is the price of sin, is naturally blind to the Spirit of life.

Cameron143 said:
Since Jesus never sinned, He could not have died if our sins had not been imputed to Him.
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If Jesus had sin imputed to Him, He had sin. Jesus had no sin. Jesus was not made a sinner on the cross.

Symbolizing sin and evil like some mystical place card, that can be transferred from one soul to another, is the delusion of unrepentant sinners, that theologically justify their own sinning, as not being evil themselves.

No man can separate our own evil doing from our own soul, and cast it off to the Son's 'account'.

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
Pilgrimshope said:
ATG said:
Psalms{119:113}
I hate vain thoughts and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬
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??? How does anyone judge others by loving the law of the LORD, and doing it? The law is not evil, but only transgressing the law.

Rom 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

If loving the law of the LORD, and preaching doing His law with a good heart, is evil, then it is only the transgressor that condemns himself.

Rom 7:13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
 
ATG said:
The Father had no sin imputed to His son, who had no sin; And only the soul that sins, shall die toward God.
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2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 - the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Whatever you don't let what the Lord says in His Word get in the way of what you believe.

Without Jesus being the Lamb of God, you have no salvation
 
ATG said:
The wages of sin is death of the soul toward God.

The mortal body dies naturally.

Any man that believes bodily death is the price of sin, is naturally blind to the Spirit of life.


If Jesus had sin imputed to Him, He had sin. Jesus had no sin. Jesus was not made a sinner on the cross.

Symbolizing sin and evil like some mystical place card, that can be transferred from one soul to another, is the delusion of unrepentant sinners, that theologically justify their own sinning, as not being evil themselves.

No man can separate our own evil doing from our own soul, and cast it off to the Son's 'account'.

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Again...you have had plenty of people share truth with you. Do what you want with it.

Grace and peace.
 
OMC said:
You are assuming that if God lays iniquity on His Servant, He must be declaring Him a blasphemer —
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Since the charge and sin imputed to Jesus was that of blasphemy, for calling Himself the Son of God, then if God also imputed Him guilty, it was of blasphemy.

The Scripture is clear: Only sinful men and false accusers imputed Jesus with sin of blasphemy, and unjustly esteemed Him smitten of God by law.

OMC said:
but Isaiah separates those categories:
men wrongly “esteemed Him stricken” (53:4),
while God truly “laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (53:6) and
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Since men wrongly esteemed Him smitten of God, then God certainly didn't smite Him. And since God did not smite Him, then He certainly didn't make Him guilty of death by law.
 
ATG said:
Since men wrongly esteemed Him smitten of God, then God certainly didn't smite Him. And since God did not smite Him, then He certainly didn't make Him guilty of death by law.
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2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 - the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Whatever you don't let what the Lord says in His Word get in the way of what you believe.
 
OMC said:
You keep insisting “only sinful men laid anything on Him,”
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This is not my quote, but a misquote:

"Only sinful men esteemed Jesus guilty of blaspemy, and smote Him against the law."

"It's only sinful men that did those vile things to Jesus, not God the Father:"

"Only sinful men oppressed, struck, and smote the Son on a cross as a blasphemer. Only unbelieving men say He was accursed of God as by law."

OMC said:
but Isaiah says the opposite:
God Himself “made Him bear their iniquities” (53:11–12).
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Now a misquote from Scripture:

Isa 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

In any case, I certainly accept the appearance of contradiction, since it's the Scriptures that appear to contradict themselves.

You (alone so far) are at least trying to acknowledge the truth of Is 53:4, but then fail to accept it as written, and so produce a contradiction to teach what's written:

Isa 53:34:
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Who is it here, that the prophecy of Scripture says will impute Jesus Christ with sin, and esteem Him smitten of God on the cross. God and man? No. God or man? Man, not God. And if man, not God, then man alone...

Isaiah{50:5}
The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psa 22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psa 22:16
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Act 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Who is it here that fulilled prophecy of Scripture by doing such evil things to Jesus the righteous? the righteous God and sinful men? No. The righteous God or sinful men? Sinful men alone without God.

Therefore, all Scripture pertaining to the accusation, condemnation, suffering, and death of Jesus Christ, must be rightely interpreted by this simple fact: Only sinful men wrongly imputed and did those things to Him, and unjustly esteemed Him guilty and smitten of God.

Will anyone deny it? Will anyone say that sinful men did not impute, esteem, and do those vile things to Jesus? Who would say God Immanuel was with men, when doing those things, and were not alone? Except we first reject the truth of Is 53:3, which leads to proper reading of written things to follow.
 
ScooterJackson said:
2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Isaiah 53:6 - the LORD has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all.

Whatever you don't let what the Lord says in His Word get in the way of what you believe.
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Exactly.

Which is why some reject Is 53:3-4, in order to continue believing a lie about 2 Cor 5:21 and Is 53:6, etc...

Which is also why they avoid the plain teaching of Is 53:3, in order to continue misreading 2 Cor 5:21 and Is 53:6 for a lie.
 
PaulThomson said:
Hence, God was not the one afflicting Jesus. We were.
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So, you don't excuse you're own sinning against Christ, as being less evil than the wicked ones crucifying Him?

You don't justify your own sinning against Christ, as not crucifying Him also?

Me neither brother.

We have all sinned against Christ, and so we all our guilty of His death by sin.

Just because He allowed us to crucify Him, and died for our sins, does not mean He did not die because of our sins against Him.

Jesus came to die for our sins to be repented of. He did not die for our sins to be counted against Him.
 
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