How did the people accept what the Lord Jesus said?
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Jesus told His disciples that following His departure, the Holy Spirit would come and remind the disciples of everything He (Jesus) taught them.
They then became apostles and began to share the Gospel in "Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
They then became apostles and began to share the Gospel in "Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8).
Your title question does not appear to connect with your citation. What is the point you are trying to make?
How did the people accept what the Lord Jesus said
Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
According to Ephesians 4:11, the Lord Jesus gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
How did the people who read and believed in the Holy Scriptures recognize and accept these individuals in these roles?
If these ministries were given by the Lord Jesus, how did these people come to have the ministries or positions mentioned in Ephesians 4:11?
In other words, how did they know that someone was truly called or gifted by the Lord to serve as an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, or teacher?
They searched the Scriptures DAILY to see if what they heard matched Scripture. All of the above list of guys MUST use the Word to deliver their message.
If they spoke contrary to the Word, then they were false.
Because God is not double-minded and because He is "full of truth" He cannot lie. It should go without saying that no true preacher of God would teach something in opposition to what is already written. I mean, that's the low hanging fruit, accepted by babes in the Lord, for testing those who claim to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers.
But, the scriptures that were widely available at the time that letter was written would have been the Torah (OT) alone. Paul's letter to the Ephesians is dated sometime around 60AD. The first record of a collection of his writings is found around 140AD. However, God did not leave his people flounder for 80 years until someone could "search the New Testament" to see if what someone was preaching lined up with the writings.
We should be grateful that 1) the Holy Spirit gives witness to the spirits of the saints about the authenticity of what was being preached and 2) that the tradition of confirmation, the laying on of hands, was practiced by the church fathers. We actually have a record of these two things in the scriptures.
The elementary doctrine of "the laying on of hands" (Hebrews 6) was used as a witness to commission those who were sent by God and burdened with a measure of authority. Traditionally, Moses used this in front of the priest and the people to commission Joshua.
"Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; so the children of Israel heeded him, and did as the Lord had commanded Moses."
We see this administration in the church at Antioch, led by the Holy Spirit, for the commissioning and releasing of Saul (Paul) and Barnabas as apostles:
"Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away."
Notice how they could not search the scriptures to confirm what "the Holy Spirit said" as there was no previous record of confirming Saul and Barnabas as apostles. However, the prophets and teachers had the reliable direction of the Holy Spirit. As part of their witness to others, they laid hands on the two brothers to confirm them as apostles and released them to their ministries.
Also notice that these were not just anyone: these men were "prophets and teachers" among the Antioch church. They would have had a trusted witness of the character of Christ, and following the Holy Spirit, among the brethren.
So then take Paul extends this example in the sending of Timothy. We read this account (in 2nd Timothy) of commissioning and empowerment as Paul lays hands on Timothy:
"Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands."
To the saints and Thessaloniki, Paul wrote this about Timothy:
"We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3so that none of you would be shaken by these trials."
The "we" in this letter is the authors of the letter: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy ("Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ..."). Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy perpetuate this elementary doctrine in the sending of Timothy.
Lastly, it should be noted that Paul gives himself as the example for Timothy. These are words which Timothy "heard" (not read in a letter).
"Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us."
I chose this example to make the point that commissioned leaders, like apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, should have living examples of the grace the accompanies their ministries. Paul was in Antioch for years under prophets and teachers (at least) before being released as an apostle. Timothy and Silvanus walked with Paul before being released as apostles.
Of course, the ultimate example is Jesus and the 12. When He said "Go and make disciples..." the disciples knew exactly how to make disciples from the example of Jesus Christ and His three years with them. They lived, learned and were led by Him for three years before being sent out as Apostles of the Lamb. Paul, and others, perpetuates this standard with his disciples and those whom he sends.
We could raise the question, based on this verse, who is doing the giving and to whom did he give it? Some commentators might suggest that Christ is giving these men to his church. Some might argue that God is giving these roles to men. In my view, God the Father is giving these men to his Son.
One could argue that "His Son" and the church are the same thing in certain contexts.
But here the passage seems clear:
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
Just a few sentences later we have this:
"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers..."
The purpose of the gifts are then noted:
"..for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..."
The standard of which (the standard of equipping and edifying) is Christ Himself:
"..till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..."
This is why, when this standard is met, there will be no more need of the spiritual gifts:
"But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."
Until then, they are given to men for the equipping of the saints and the edification of the Body of Christ.
Right! They weren't capable of being apostles until they had been baptized with the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, about 40 days after Jesus ascended to heaven, I think it was. The indwelling Spirit helps us to understand the scriptures about the way of salvation - correctly.
Weren't thay apostles before that ?
Luke 6:13..."And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"
they are known as the gifts of Christ. Given to the Church for the building up of the body.
Even here we have two plausible interpretations for the genitive: the gift of Christ. Did Paul mean to say: the gift given to Christ, or the gift Christ gave?
Your interpretation is also plausible, given the metaphor Paul uses of a king who ascended on high. From the context, we understand that Christ is the one who ascended on high, and he is the one who descended to the lower parts of the earth. Perhaps Paul meant to say that Christ took men captive and gave them to the church.
In the Greek, I think, it is obvious that Paul is not talking about passing out spiritual gifts in 4:11 and is consistent with the metaphor about a triumphant king; Paul is talking about men as the gifts. The Text literally reads, "he gave apostles, prophets, Evangelists, teachers and preachers." Literally, he gave gifts OF men.
So where am I getting my interpretation from? I am trying to make the best sense of how Paul talks about himself and his ministry, especially in chapter 3. (Ephesians 3:2, 3:7, 3:8. He refers to his ministry as a "grace given to me by God for you." In this language, God is the giver, and Paul is the receiver. Given that this is Paul's typical idiom, it seems reasonable to conclude that he uses the same idiom in Ephesians 4:7. God gives the role of prophet to the prophet as a "grace." Just as God gave Paul his role as apostle as a grace, God gives spiritual gifts to each member according to "Christ's gift." And each of these roles is a "grace given to the person as a grace."
But this is a complex metaphor because there are several ideas being explained, each different but each closely related.
But in the Greek, I think, it is obvious that spiritual gifts are not being given in Ephesians 4:7.
People come to this passage seeking information about the "Spiritual Gifts" but I note that Paul doesn't speak about his own role as a "gift" but a "grace" in chapter 3. Even here in chapter 4 the various roles in the church are called "a grace" when he says "to each one of us a grace was given." The Gift is given by God to his Son and Paul's point is that the graces were given to us as a measure of that gift.
What do you think? Does that make sense?
Yeah. I see what you're saying.
I also see a convergence of "grace" and "gift" in the scriptures.
Commonly, in countries with royalty, we hear "Your grace" when referring to the king or queen. It was understood that the entirety of the state was represented by the sovereign. And, that the source of authority was resident in ruling monarch. He or she may delegate that authority to whomever they wish. That person, endowed with the measure of "grace", may function as the monarch in their given sphere of influence.
This understanding connects to the passage: "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift".
To the Corinthians Paul wrote: "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all..."
This is Kingdom language. Commonly, a delegation of grace was given to the most capable or to those in strategic places in the kingdom (borders, farm land, rivers, etc.). The expectation was that the most reliable and loyal subjects would extend the rule of the king into further territory thereby increasing the reach of the kingdom.
Given this understanding, the following passage is about the Sovereign equipping His chosen vessel and sending him, as an envoy, for the expressed interest of kingdom expansion:
"For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power."
Grace, by extension, is power and authority. Both are required when dealing with the enemy of both the Sovereign and His subjects: spiritual forces of evil.
These are just some of my observations.
To circle back to your understanding, it squares with the understanding that we are Christ's inheritance. A righteous King that He is, He has coveted nothing but His Bride, even to the point of giving His life for her. He and Father are One in this heart and mind.
What must be done to be called or to become an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher?
God’s call. This usually comes directly to the individual and is confirmed through others who know the Lord, and possibly through one or more prophetic words.
On the human side, usually training, observation, prayer, and opportunity. These go along with God’s initiative but should not ignore it.
Why do you continually attempt to undermine plain Scripture?
They responded to what Jesus said by , "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender."
Well, the gifts and callings are from the Lord and are irrevocable: you don't get to change out your destiny for a different one.
Since people need a witness of authenticity (eg: servants must be doing the work of the calling or exemplify the character of one burdened with authority) there is often an administration of commission.
Like when Paul sent Timothy, he gave this warning: "Do not be too quick in the laying on of hands and thereby share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure."
Timothy knew what Paul meant, as he was similarly commissioned by Paul and the elders by the laying on of hands "Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership."
So, Timothy, as an apostle, was likewise tasked with the commissioning of those called into the service of the Lord. The warning is about allowing the young leader to mature before recognizing him or her in their calling. Else, Timothy might have to deal with some sin the Lord has yet to correct.