“Neither Jew nor Greek”

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Feb 10, 2024
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#1
Neither Jew nor Greek” never was to be understood as Jew nor non-Jew and yet most believers are repeating this concept because their pastors are teaching it this way. Did you know that by the time of Jesus’ ministry it was common knowledge that the Greeks were in fact ancient Israelites? This realization began with correspondence between the Greek Spartans and the Judeans of which was documented 1 Maccabees

Areus I (Greek: Ἀρεύς; c. 320 or 312 – 265 BC) was Agiad King of Sparta from 309 to 265 BC.
to
Onias I High Priest from c. 320-290 b.c.

This is a copy of the letter which they sent to Onias:
“Arius, king of the Spartans, to Onias the high priest, greeting. It has been found in writing concerning the Spartans and the Jews that they are brethren and are of the family of Abraham. And now that we have learned this, please write us concerning your welfare; we on our part write to you that your cattle and your property belong to us, and ours belong to you. We therefore command that our envoys report to you accordingly” (1 Macc 12:19-23).

This correspondence continued:

Jonathan Apphus leader of the Hasmonean dynasty of Judea from 161 to 143 BCE.

This is a copy of the letter which Jonathan wrote to the Spartans:
“Jonathan the high priest, the senate of the nation, the priests, and the rest of the Jewish people to their brethren the Spartans, greeting. Already in time past a letter was sent to Onias the high priest from Arius, who was king among you, stating that you are our brethren, as the appended copy shows. Onias welcomed the envoy with honor, and received the letter, which contained a clear declaration of alliance and friendship. Therefore, though we have no need of these things, since we have as encouragement the holy books which are in our hands, we have undertaken to send to renew our brotherhood and friendship with you, so that we may not become estranged from you, for considerable time has passed since you sent your letter to us. We therefore remember you constantly on every occasion, both in our feasts and on other appropriate days, at the sacrifices which we offer and in our prayers, as it is right and proper to remember brethren. And we rejoice in your glory But as for ourselves, many afflictions and many wars have encircled us; the kings round about us have waged war against us. We were unwilling to annoy you and our other allies and friends with these wars, for we have the help which comes from Heaven for our aid; and we were delivered from our enemies and our enemies were humbled. We therefore have chosen Numenius the son of Antiochus and Antipater the son of Jason, and have sent them to Rome to renew our former friendship and alliance with them. We have commanded them to go also to you and greet you and deliver to you this letter from us concerning the renewal of our brotherhood. And now please send us a reply to this” (1 Macc 12:5-18).

The Jewish historian, Josephus corroborates these letters in his writings “Antiquity of the Jews”
and in confirmation of the Israelite identity of these people, Diodorus of Sicily, a historian of the first century B.C., states: "They say also that those who set forth with Danaus, likewise from Egypt, settled what is practically the oldest city of Greece, Argos, and that the nations of the Colchi in Pontus and that of the Jews, which lies between Arabia and Syria, were founded as colonies by certain emigrants from their country [i.e., Egypt]; and this is the reason why it is a long-established institution among these peoples to circumcise their male children . . . the custom having been brought over from Egypt. Even the Athenians, they say, are colonists from Sais in [the Nile Delta of] Egypt" (Book 1, sec. 28, 1-5).

The famed Greek poet Homer often used the term Danaans for the Greeks. For this name, or variants such as Danai or Danoi, is what they called themselves. Dr. Robert Latham, a respected ethnologist of the 19th century, made the connection, writing: "Neither do I think that the eponymus [eponym or ancestral name] of the Argive Danai [i.e., Greeks of Argos] was other than that of the Israelite tribe of Dan; only we are so used to confining ourselves to the soil of Palestine in our consideration of the history of the Israelites that we . . . ignore the share they may have taken in the ordinary history of the world . . . Yet with the Danai and the tribe of Dan this is the case, and no one connects them" (Ethnology of Europe, 1852, p. 137).

Hidden in plain sight, the Jews response to Jesus in John 7 shows us their concern that Jesus would go to teach the scattered Israelites of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities, commonly known as the “dispersion”

“The Jews said to one another, “Where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? 36 What does he mean by saying, ‘You will seek me and you will not find me,’ and, ‘Where I am you cannot come’?”
John 7:35,36

Paul made it clear in his epistle to the Corinthians, which were Dorian Greeks living in the city of Corinth, that they were all kinsmen

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1 Corinthians 10:1-5

Christians cannot understand the scripture if they do not understand history. The subject of the Greeks being Israelites of the dispersion in the time of Christ’s ministry is imperitive to our understanding of Gods will in according to the prophets and of the timing of Christ’s arrival. Paul refers to this as “the fullness of the time” in Galatians 4. I strongly urge my brethren to first read Gods word cover to cover, again and again but also to use the access to the internet to study history. There is so much historical documentation that can be used to prove that the Greeks were Israelites indeed.
Jesus gave his life to redeem his people and reconcile divorced Israel who had been scattered, yet established throughout Europe proving that God kept his promises to Abraham that his seed would become many nations. For far too long the church has been inventing man made doctrine that stands opposed to the will of God.
Jesus told us:
“He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.”
Matthew 12:30
Peace to all my brethren
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,544
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#2
Okay... I see no value in arguing your point, but you haven't explained what it means for rightly interpreting and applying Galatians 3:28. Are you saying that only people descended from ancient Israel can become "real" Christians?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#3
Okay... I see no value in arguing your point, but you haven't explained what it means for rightly interpreting and applying Galatians 3:28. Are you saying that only people descended from ancient Israel can become "real" Christians?
You have succinctly stated what I was thinking but was struggling to put into words. (y)
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
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#4
Some versions of the bible translate it as "gentile" instead of "Greek"; so, it's probably not just because of Pastors. The idea is that the Gentiles are Greek, because so many of them speak Greek/ had Greek culture... the Byzantines were even made fun of because the claimed to be "Romans" while Greek language was totally dominant in the Byzantine Empire. (I still think of them as the Roman Empire; but it is what it is).

Even if we were to look at Galatians in the way the OP suggests; when we look at more than just this verse, we can plainly see that the Gospel and the Church are for the whole world.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#5
... and, yet again, someone appears here to instruct us on how we have misinterpreted Scripture for 2,000 years. Goodness...

As for not understanding Scripture unless we understand History, baloney. I am pretty sure that Jesus made it quite clear who would impart understanding of Scripture to the
Church. Yup! THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Works for me....

One might also remember that God said He would call His people who were not His people, etc... and if the OP is correct, then the Greeks it speaks of were actually Jews, well, God Himself makes that point moot at best, and just silly at worse.

Personally, I go with silly.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#6
Romans, Chapter 9:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Debate over!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#7
Did you know that by the time of Jesus’ ministry it was common knowledge that the Greeks were in fact ancient Israelites?
Really? Then why did Paul bother to distinguish between Jews and Greeks? The term Greek stands for Gentiles.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,938
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#8
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.

Okay, but like, we should still say Christ was a Jew, right?

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”

Dang it!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#9
divorced Israel who had been scattered, yet established throughout Europe
Thesis: I think MikeIsraelite72 was trying to establish the thesis that Europeans are all Israelites.

A.) If so, he's conflating a lot of disparate data points, and he's drawing conclusions that reach far beyond the data.

B.) Many groups, over the centuries, have claimed to be a "lost tribe of Israel" by cobbling together odd bits of data, and then pole vaulting to some remote conclusion.



All around the globe, people that have never even met a Jew, either hate the Jews, or to pretend to be one.
It's a real thing to ponder.



.
 
Feb 10, 2024
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#10
Thesis: I think MikeIsraelite72 was trying to establish the thesis that Europeans are all Israelites.

A.) If so, he's conflating a lot of disparate data points, and he's drawing conclusions that reach far beyond the data.

B.) Many groups, over the centuries, have claimed to be a "lost tribe of Israel" by cobbling together odd bits of data, and then pole vaulting to some remote conclusion.



All around the globe, people that have never even met a Jew, either hate the Jews, or to pretend to be one.
It's a real thing to ponder.



.
why does the source material of historical record cause you to respond so arrogantly? it doesnt make sense but it says alot when your not adding anything significant and by the tone of your response its as if your invalidating something that is factual for your own convenience🤦🏼‍♂️
 
Feb 10, 2024
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#11
Romans, Chapter 9:

Debate over!
so your “mic drop” moment hinges on Romans 9 where Paul is quoting Hosea to signal the fulfillment of divorced Israel now being reconcilled back to their God.🤦🏼‍♂️
It is in this context that i posted the sources proving that the Greeks were in fact of the stock of Abraham, Gods will is glorified in this prophetically

9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might stand, not because of works but because of him who calls
Romans 9-9-11

just to be clear, however, Romans 9 is a dissertation about the Pharisees and high priest who had claimed to be Abrahams seed yet “were in bondage to no man” proving that Jesus knew they were imposters, Edomites who were forced to convert by John Hyrcanus.

“Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32And you shall know thetruth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.40But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41You do the deeds of your father.”
John 8:31-33, John 8:39-41

Josephus Antiquities of the Jews

John Hyrcanus (born c. 175 BC—died 104 BC) was a high priest and ruler of the Jewish nation from 135/134 to 104 BC. Under his reign, the Hasmonean kingdom of Judaea in ancient Palestine attained power and conquered the unfriendly neighbouring territories of Samaria and Idumaea (Edom). He forced the Edomites to convert to Judaism, the first example of conversion imposed by the Jews in their history.

In context, Gods will is playing out through these forced conversions, moving the Edomite chesspieces. as it were, because only the eternally hated children of Esau, who God said would be at war with Gods elect in Jacob until the end, could have possibly had Jesus killed through Jewish treachory. Paul eludes to this continuing in Romans 9

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Paul continues to elaborate as you had quoted who can resist the will of God? Jacob and Esau have different destinies of which God had known, had declared and prophetically speaking, will accomplish as his word will not return to him void..

22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,(Esau) 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy,(Jacob) which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Judeans only but also from the Nations
Romans 9:22-24

From the nations, historically speaking, refers to the scattered Israelites of whom God divorced and Assyria took into captivity, from 740BC until the time of Christ the divorced israelites went into exile yet God by his divine providence had a prophecied plan of redemption as we continue to read…

25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9-25,26

This fulfillment proves that the same Yahweh God who divorced the house of Israel in Palestine, suffered the cross releasing the bride Israel from the law and death and in that same place, Palestine, was raised in glory and sent out Paul to the dispersion of Israel with the good news of the gospel.
In order that you might learn something, my OP was bringing to light the historical record concerning the Greeks and Judean kinship through Abraham, proving that Paul did not go to some mixed multitude, his ministry was to the dispersed of Israel.
I want to nail this home with scripture beginning with God divorcing the house of Israel..

“The Lord said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce
Jeremiah 3:6-8

God declares in their punishment the house of Israel will be sifted amongst the nations

“Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as cornis sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Amos 9:8,9

With the historical context of the Greeks being the dispersed Israelites , Hosea 1:10-11
is absolutely beautiful

10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, (Jesus)and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

It wasnt just Paul teaching the dispersed Israelites, Peter also refers his epistle to the Greek dispersion of Israelites

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:”
1Peter 1:1

Here we have Peter writing exclusively to Greeks,Scythians and Cimmerians all of which were Israelites of the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities.

Jesus speaks in plain language yet most dont believe Him for some reason..

24He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
Matthew 15:24


Praise Jesus
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,338
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#12
why does the source material of historical record cause you to respond so arrogantly? it doesnt make sense but it says alot when your not adding anything significant and by the tone of your response its as if your invalidating something that is factual for your own convenience
It's "a lot," not "alot."
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
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#13
... and, yet again, someone appears here to instruct us on how we have misinterpreted Scripture for 2,000 years. Goodness...

As for not understanding Scripture unless we understand History, baloney. I am pretty sure that Jesus made it quite clear who would impart understanding of Scripture to the
Church. Yup! THE HOLY SPIRIT!


Works for me....

One might also remember that God said He would call His people who were not His people, etc... and if the OP is correct, then the Greeks it speaks of were actually Jews, well, God Himself makes that point moot at best, and just silly at worse.

Personally, I go with silly.
He's only saying a specific group of Greeks are Jews or rather from the bloodline of Abraham.

Abraham had a wife after Sarah died name Keturah and had several children with her. Some historians think Keturah is actually Hagar but Keturah is the "Free Name" and "Hagar" was the slave name.

Keturah is referred to in Genesis as "another wife" of Abraham (Hebrew: אִשָּה‎ ‎ Translit.: 'išāh Translated: woman, wife). In First Chronicles, she is called Abraham's "concubine" (Hebrew: פִּילֶגֶשׁ‎ ‎ Translit.: pilegeš Translated: concubine).
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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#14
25:
1
Abraham married Keturah,
2 and they had six sons: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 Later, Jokshan became the father of Sheba and Dedan, and when Dedan grew up, he had three sons: Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim. 4 Midian also had five sons: Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abida, and Eldaah.


According to Historian Accounts:

The son of Abraham and Keturah, Aphras, accompanied Hercules into North Africa. His daughter married Hercules and had a son Diodorus.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
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#15
Abraham's son, Midian, had a son name Ephah, that in some places in history is known as Aphras.
Aphras married a Greek woman, the daughter of a Spartan named Hercules.
This is how Abraham's bloodline connects to the Spartans.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,491
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#16
Thesis: I think MikeIsraelite72 was trying to establish the thesis that Europeans are all Israelites.

A.) If so, he's conflating a lot of disparate data points, and he's drawing conclusions that reach far beyond the data.

B.) Many groups, over the centuries, have claimed to be a "lost tribe of Israel" by cobbling together odd bits of data, and then pole vaulting to some remote conclusion.



All around the globe, people that have never even met a Jew, either hate the Jews, or to pretend to be one.
It's a real thing to ponder.



.
Some of them pole-vaulters land in the weirdest places.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#17
Paul eludes to this continuing in Romans 9
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9-25,26
I want to nail this home with scripture beginning with God divorcing the house of Israel..
8Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce
Jeremiah 3:6-8
God declares in their punishment the house of Israel will be sifted amongst the nations
What I am seeing in the texts, is that where the phrase states (in Romans 9 and Hosea 1) "IN THE PLACE [singular] WHERE it was said unto them...," this "in the place" refers to [IN] ONE PLACE, like it does everywhere this phrase is used:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=in+the+place&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1


[Hebrew: H4725 "in the place"; Greek: "in the place [G1722 G3588 G5117 - topos]"



So, "WHERE" was that ONE PLACE (where "it was said unto them," this)?







IF Romans 9 had perhaps worded it like Mark 6:10 is worded (using G3699), "in what place soever..." (meaning, more along the lines of, in whatever placeS you end up / your destination-locationS)... your point might have more "umph," so to speak...

... but it doesn't word it this way.






I believe it is talking about ONE PLACE [singular] "WHERE it was said unto them" (not the places they were scattered TO, as the outcome of said judgment)
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
863
287
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#18
Sorry for the sarcasm but Maccabees, Smaccabees, forget that book.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It makes a distinction between a Jew and a Greek by saying salvation to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If the Jew is first and then the Greek then how is the Greek a Jew for if the Greek were a Jew they would be first.

From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

This is the interpretation of the word Greek in this scripture that it means non-Jew, Gentile.
 
Feb 10, 2024
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#19
Sorry for the sarcasm but Maccabees, Smaccabees, forget that book.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

It makes a distinction between a Jew and a Greek by saying salvation to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

If the Jew is first and then the Greek then how is the Greek a Jew for if the Greek were a Jew they would be first.

From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

This is the interpretation of the word Greek in this scripture that it means non-Jew, Gentile.
It makes the distinction because Jesus had to be born into the Judean society that was under the law to fulfill all that was prophecied of His coming. Also, He came unto His own territory because it was rightfully His inheritence. He was the rightful King of Israel.

The Greeks were not under the law but many of them were the scattered sheep of Israel that God not only divorced but gave them up to their idolatry and most of them were pagans worshipping the gods of the pantheon. However, some of those scattered sheep continued to serve God and they journeyed to Jerusalem each year to present themselves at the temple.

My point is Josephus knew exactly where the scattered israelites were because it was common knowledge at the time but the emnity between the house of Israel and the house of Judah remained from the time of the split of the 2 kingdoms but moreso now cuz they were divorced of God relenquishing their religious identities.

This is the context I was referring, to the Judean first then after Jesus gave His life for His sheep, He was raised in glory calling Paul to the ministry of taking the gospel to those scattered sheep among the nations just as was prophecied. The Greeks were the dispersed Israelites and Peter, James followed suite as written in their epistles.
 
Apr 2, 2024
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#20
claimed to be a "lost tribe of Israel" by cobbling together odd bits of data, and then pole vaulting to some remote conclusion.



All around the globe, people that have never even met a Jew, either hate the Jews, or to pretend to be one.
It's a real thing to ponder.

.
Yeah these israelite groups are a dime a dozen. Black hebrew israelites (many camps of these), you got the british israelites (many groups once again) and what a coincidence, its always the people YOU are thats the israelites.

You rarely if ever see someone who is black come to the conclusion that "Yeah, I see it now, the british isles are the descendants of ancient lost tribes of Israel!"
You rarely if ever see someone who is white come to the conclusion that "Yeah, I see it now, the african americans are the descendants of the ancient lost tribes of Israel!"

We all know the truth. The truth is, im an israelite. Obviously