1 John 2:19

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TruthDefender said:
Ok, so we’re not talking about the fallen away, who once were and aren’t anymore. We’re talking about deceivers and false teachers who never had His Spirit, because they came from Satan.
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No. We are talking about those who have fallen away from the faith. You asked me if I knew the difference between a wolf and someone who has fallen away, and I told you how a fallen away person can become a wolf. I’m not talking about someone who never became a Christian.
 
TruthDefender said:
Ok, so we’re not talking about the fallen away, who once were and aren’t anymore. We’re talking about deceivers and false teachers who never had His Spirit, because they came from Satan.
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Obviously some did have the spirit

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6​
 
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Winslow89 said:
No. We are talking about those who have fallen away from the faith. You asked me if I knew the difference between a wolf and someone who has fallen away, and I told you how a fallen away person can become a wolf. I’m not talking about someone who never became a Christian.
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Yes, the wolf being the deceiver coming in sheep’s clothing…. from Satan.
 
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Winslow89 said:
Gal. 5:4 is pretty clear. In order to be severed from something or someone, you’d first have to be part of it. If I sever my arm from my body, my arm was once a part of me otherwise I’d not be able to sever it. No one would say my arm was never part of my body. And due to it being severed, it has fallen from where it once was.
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Some folk follow an interpretation of the N.T so the warnings given by the apostles disappears.

A simplified version given by Paul is "do not be deceived".

Anyone can fall from grace, anyone can be severed from Christ.

We must persevere through thick and thin.
 
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TruthDefender said:
Do you hear what you’re writing? You’re all over the place. Apples and trees
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Just examples of Christians being deceived and Christians walking in the flesh.

I was in a hurry so I slapped the example of legalism into the post.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Live the Christian life according to the flesh and you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery,
enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness,
carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those
who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
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Winslow89 said:
And also can be erring Christian’s who have left to teach false doctrines.
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I’m pretty sure in one of those verses that I had quoted, it stated had they been from God, they would still be with us; I believe they never had His Spirit to begin with.

Did Judas Iscariot ever have His Spirit? Jesus chose him knowing he was from Satan to accomplish His mission.
 
TruthDefender said:
I’m pretty sure in one of those verses that I had quoted, it stated had they been from God, they would still be with us; I believe they never had His Spirit to begin with.

Did Judas Iscariot ever have His Spirit? Jesus chose him knowing he was from Satan to accomplish His mission.
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Did the apostles have the Spirit before Pentecost?
 
TruthDefender said:
I’m pretty sure in one of those verses that I had quoted, it stated had they been from God, they would still be with us; I believe they never had His Spirit to begin with.

Did Judas Iscariot ever have His Spirit? Jesus chose him knowing he was from Satan to accomplish His mission.
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If they had been of God they’d have continued with us doesn’t mean they were never with us. It simply means they were not of God at their departure, which is why they didn’t continue with us. Happens all the time.

Concerning Judas, he by transgression fell from the ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25), and you cannot fall from a place you were never in. He also had the same power as the apostles had (Matthew 10:1, 8; Mark 3:14-15, 6:7; Luke 9:1), and to claim that Judas was never truly saved is to imply that Christ empowered a child of the devil to cast out demons by His own authority, just as He did the other apostles.

Yet Christ Himself refuted the Pharisees when they accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

“Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?” (Matthew 12:25-26).

No one could answer, because Christ had exposed a clear and undeniable truth. If He had truly authorized a child of the devil to cast out demons, that would have contradicted the very argument He used against the Pharisees.
 
Winslow89 said:
If they had been of God they’d have continued with us doesn’t mean they were never with us. It simply means they were not of God at their departure, which is why they didn’t continue with us. Happens all the time.

Concerning Judas, he by transgression fell from the ministry and apostleship (Acts 1:25), and you cannot fall from a place you were never in. He also had the same power as the apostles had (Matthew 10:1, 8; Mark 3:14-15, 6:7; Luke 9:1), and to claim that Judas was never truly saved is to imply that Christ empowered a child of the devil to cast out demons by His own authority, just as He did the other apostles.

Yet Christ Himself refuted the Pharisees when they accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub.

“Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?” (Matthew 12:25-26).

No one could answer, because Christ had exposed a clear and undeniable truth. If He had truly authorized a child of the devil to cast out demons, that would have contradicted the very argument He used against the Pharisees.
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Ok, you’re adding “at their departure”, and no, I don’t agree about adding ideas. What happens all the time? Lol

Regarding Judas:

-“Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?””
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭70‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So yes, he fell out of his position as one of the 12. Yet Jesus knew that would happen when Judas was chosen.

-““Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

God can do anything He wants; there are NO limits to God.
 
TruthDefender said:
you’re adding “at their departure”, and no, I don’t agree about adding ideas. What happens all the time?
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You’re being a bit disingenuous here by saying I’m adding. Whenever someone gives what they believe on a given verse, they aren’t adding anything. If I’m adding, then you’re adding by saying they were never saved. I also don’t agree with adding ideas either, such as they were never saved.
 
Winslow89 said:
John 7:36-38 and John 20:22 are interesting verses.
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I believe the gifts, the ministries, and the fruit of the H.S were available to the apostles
from Pentecost onwards. There were observable signs and power on that day. I think that
Pentecost relates to the first fruits of the harvest, the fulfillment thereof.

I don't know if anyone understands John 20:22.
 
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TruthDefender said:
-“Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?””
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭70‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
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That verse doesn’t say he was always a devil. That’s a statement of character.
Peter was also called “Satan” in Matthew 16:23. Judas’ heart was already shifting toward greed and betrayal (John 12:6), so Jesus spoke prophetically of what he was becoming — not what he had always been.

Since the Pharisees couldn’t refute Jesus’ words (Matthew 12:25-26), that would mean Judas was not always of the devil. To say he was always of the devil would be saying what the Pharisees said, which Jesus refuted.
 
Winslow89 said:
You’re being a bit disingenuous here by saying I’m adding. Whenever someone gives what they believe on a given verse, they aren’t adding anything. If I’m adding, then you’re adding by saying they were never saved. I also don’t agree with adding ideas either, such as they were never saved.
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Winslow89 said:
That verse doesn’t say he was always a devil. That’s a statement of character.
Peter was also called “Satan” in Matthew 16:23. Judas’ heart was already shifting toward greed and betrayal (John 12:6), so Jesus spoke prophetically of what he was becoming — not what he had always been.

Since the Pharisees couldn’t refute Jesus’ words (Matthew 12:25-26), that would mean Judas was not always of the devil. To say he was always of the devil would be saying what the Pharisees said, which Jesus refuted.
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I’m not following your last paragraph; I have no idea what you’re trying to say?

As for this verse:

-“Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?””
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭70‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

You can twist it up, but if you leave it alone, it is what it says:
Judas was a devil at the time Jesus chose him. Jesus already knew, and the prophets prophesied about him in the OT.
 
I am NOT TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES!!! To accuse me of doing such is a serious charge (2 Peter 3:16)!!! I would hope I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong and conform to the truth. Now, even if I am wrong on this matter concerning Judas, tell me what biblical error I’m believing in that is damning?

When Jesus refuted the Pharisees (Matthew 12:25–26), He exposed their false logic. So, any interpretation of John 6:70 and other passages about or alluding to Judas has to be in harmony with what Jesus said to the Pharisees. If we said Judas was always of the devil from day one, it would echo the same accusation the Pharisees made against Jesus (that He empowered evil to work authentic authoritative miracles in His name, by His own authority), which Jesus explicitly refuted. Therefore, interpreting John 6:70 in a way that contradicts Jesus’ defense against the Pharisees would create a theological inconsistency.

John 13:2 says, “And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him…”

Notice the wording: “the devil having now put into the heart…”. The “having now” shows that Judas’ betrayal was initiated at that moment. He wasn’t always a devil.

Goodbye.
 
Winslow89 said:
I am NOT TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES!!! To accuse me of doing such is a serious charge (2 Peter 3:16)!!! I would hope I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong and conform to the truth. Now, even if I am wrong on this matter concerning Judas, tell me what biblical error I’m believing in that is damning?

When Jesus refuted the Pharisees (Matthew 12:25–26), He exposed their false logic. So, any interpretation of John 6:70 and other passages about or alluding to Judas has to be in harmony with what Jesus said to the Pharisees. If we said Judas was always of the devil from day one, it would echo the same accusation the Pharisees made against Jesus (that He empowered evil to work authentic authoritative miracles in His name, by His own authority), which Jesus explicitly refuted. Therefore, interpreting John 6:70 in a way that contradicts Jesus’ defense against the Pharisees would create a theological inconsistency.

John 13:2 says, “And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him…”

Notice the wording: “the devil having now put into the heart…”. The “having now” shows that Judas’ betrayal was initiated at that moment. He wasn’t always a devil.

Goodbye.
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Judas was a thief earlier on.

John 12:5-6
"Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and given to poor people?” Now he said this,
not because he was concerned about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box,
he used to pilfer what was put into it.
 
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