2 seeds, 2 Jerusalems

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Elin said:
So is the "church of the firstborn," whose names are written in heaven, also in bondage to sin?

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness,
gloom and storm (old covenant of Mt. Sinai). . .But you have come to Mt. Zion (new covenant) to
the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. . .to the church of the firstborn, whose names
are written in heaven." (Heb 12:18, 22-23)
Click to expand...

Wrong firstborn Elin. Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We were all once dead in our sins Elin.....that's why Jesus came.
 
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin said:
So is the "church of the firstborn," whose names are written in heaven, also
in bondage to sin?

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire;
to darkness, gloom and storm (old covenant of Mt. Sinai). . .But you have come to
Mt. Zion (new covenant) to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. . .to
the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven." (Heb 12:18, 22-23)
Click to expand...
Wrong firstborn Elin. Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Click to expand...
However, "firstborn" in Heb 12:24 is plural, and their names (plural) are written in heaven,
so it does not refer to Christ, as does Col 1:18.

We were all once dead in our sins, Elin.....that's why Jesus came.
Click to expand...
Agreed. . .but by "church of the firstborn," Heb 12:24 is referring to those who are born again,
and the born again are not dead in their sins, they are alive in Christ.

The letter to the Hebrews, familiar with the OT, is referring to the firstborn, who were God's
particular possession (Ex 13:2, 12-15 (Lk 2:23) by purchase.

God bought back (redeemed) from the destroying angel all the firstborn of Israel,
both men and animals, in the tenth plague (Ex 12:21-29).
Because God purchased them from death, they were his by right (Ex 13:2, 12-15, 22:29).
Therefore,
--firstborn animals were consecrated (given over to God) by sacrifice (Ex 13:15), unless
it was an unclean animal, which was then either redeemed (bought back from the priest) or destroyed
(Ex 13:13, 34:20);
--firstborn sons were consecrated to God for full-time service to him (Ex 13:2);
--God then substituted the Levites and their livestock for consecration to his full-time service
in place of the firstborn sons of Israel and their firstborn animals (Nu 3:9-13, 41, 44-51; 8:15-19),
and then gave to the Levites his right to ownership of all firstborn males, both men and animals
(Nu 18:14-15);
--therefore, all the firstborn sons of Israel had to be bought back (redeemed) from the Levites
for five shekels of silver (Ex 13:13, 15, 30:12, 34:20; Nu 18:15-16).

And that is what Hebrews is referring to in the church of the firstborn; i.e.,
those that have been redeemed.

They are not in bondage to sin, nor is firstborn a Scriptural figure of bondage to sin,
in fact, it is just the opposite--it is a figure of redemption from bondage to sin in the redeemed
church of the firstborn.
 
Last edited:
1 Corinthians 15:20, "But the fact is that Messiah has been raised from the dead, and has become the firstfriuts of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:23, "But each in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits, afterward, those who are Messiah's at His coming."
 
Elin said:
However, "firstborn" in Heb 12:24 is plural, and their names (plural) are written in heaven,
so it does not refer to Christ, as does Col 1:18.


Agreed. . .but by "church of the firstborn," Heb 12:24 is referring to those who are born again,
and the born again are not dead in their sins, they are alive in Christ.

The letter to the Hebrews, familiar with the OT, is referring to the firstborn, who were God's
particular possession (Ex 13:2, 12-15 (Lk 2:23) by purchase.

God bought back (redeemed) from the destroying angel all the firstborn of Israel,
both men and animals, in the tenth plague (Ex 12:21-29).
Because God purchased them from death, they were his by right (Ex 13:2, 12-15, 22:29).
Therefore,
--firstborn animals were consecrated (given over to God) by sacrifice (Ex 13:15), unless
it was an unclean animal, which was then either redeemed (bought back from the priest) or destroyed
(Ex 13:13, 34:20);
--firstborn sons were consecrated to God for full-time service to him (Ex 13:2);
--God then substituted the Levites and their livestock for consecration to his full-time service
in place of the firstborn sons of Israel and their firstborn animals (Nu 3:9-13, 41, 44-51; 8:15-19),
and then gave to the Levites his right to ownership of all firstborn males, both men and animals
(Nu 18:14-15);
--therefore, all the firstborn sons of Israel had to be bought back (redeemed) from the Levites
for five shekels of silver (Ex 13:13, 15, 30:12, 34:20; Nu 18:15-16).

And that is what Hebrews is referring to in the church of the firstborn; i.e.,
those that have been redeemed.

They are not in bondage to sin, nor is firstborn a Scriptural figure of bondage to sin,
in fact, it is just the opposite--it is a figure of redemption from bondage to sin in the redeemed
church of the firstborn.
Click to expand...

Again wrong firstborn Elin, the first state of man is flesh, not Spirit. I am not talking about the firstborn from the dead. (hello)

1 Corinthians 15:47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If your going to try to twist what I say around, then don't even bother responding back. Have a nice day Elin. :)
 
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin said:
InSpiritInTruth said:
Wrong firstborn Elin. Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Click to expand...
However, "firstborn" in Heb 12:24 is plural, and their names (plural) are written in heaven, so it does not refer to Christ, as does Col 1:18 above.
Click to expand...
We were all once dead in our sins, Elin.....that's why Jesus came.
Click to expand...
Agreed. . .but by "church of the firstborn," Heb 12:24 is referring to those who are born again,
and the born again are not dead in their sins, they are alive in Christ.

The letter to the Hebrews, familiar with the OT, is referring to the firstborn, who were God's particular possession (Ex 13:2, 12-15 (Lk 2:23) by purchase.

God bought back (redeemed) from the destroying angel all the firstborn of Israel,
both men and animals, in the tenth plague (Ex 12:21-29).
Because God purchased them from death, they were his by right (Ex 13:2, 12-15, 22:29).
Therefore,
--firstborn animals were consecrated (given over to God) by sacrifice (Ex 13:15), unless
it was an unclean animal, which was then either redeemed (bought back from the priest) or destroyed (Ex 13:13, 34:20);
--firstborn sons were consecrated to God for full-time service to him (Ex 13:2);
--God then substituted the Levites and their livestock for consecration to his full-time service
in place of the firstborn sons of Israel and their firstborn animals (Nu 3:9-13, 41, 44-51; 8:15-19),
and then gave to the Levites his right to ownership of all firstborn males, both men and animals
(Nu 18:14-15);
--therefore, all the firstborn sons of Israel had to be bought back (redeemed) from the Levites
for five shekels of silver (Ex 13:13, 15, 30:12, 34:20; Nu 18:15-16).

And that is what Hebrews is referring to in the church of the firstborn; i.e.,
those that have been redeemed.

They are not in bondage to sin, nor is firstborn a Scriptural figure of bondage to sin,
in fact, it is just the opposite--it is a figure of redemption from bondage to sin in the redeemed
church of the firstborn.
Click to expand...
Again wrong firstborn Elin, the first state of man is flesh, not Spirit.

I am not talking about the firstborn from the dead. (hello)

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If your going to try to twist what I say around, then don't even bother responding back. Have a nice day Elin. :)
Click to expand...
Then I guess I need you to explain what you mean in your first post, at the top of this page.
 
Last edited:
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin, your missing the big picture of what the firstborn son represents in the scriptures, in Ishmael, in Adam, in Cain, Rueben, in Esau, etc; it repeats over and over in again scripture. The bondage is of sin in the firstborn man, that is the main theme of the Bible, not the law of Moses.

You can cast out the law if you wish, but guess what? Sin still remains. Jesus came not to destroy the law or prophets, but to fulfill (meaning the law is prophetic, and speaks of other things) And Jesus also came to destroy the works of the Devil, and the body of sin, and remove the enmity that was at work in the mind of the firstborn man of sin.

I see one camp wanting to cast out the old testament because they don't understand it, and another camp who wants to throw out the new testament because they don't understand it either.

I say keep both the old and new, but remove the enmity, even the vail of the flesh that keeps the mind from seeing and hearing what the law and prophets are truly saying by the Spirit, and to also hear what Paul is truly saying in all his letters.

Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
Click to expand...

Here is where I mentioned the firstborn man of sin Elin. LOOK UP ELIN! And stop trying to twist my words and build a straw man argument by implying I was referring to the firstborn from the dead in Christ. Your motives for doing so are nothing more than deceptive and evil.

I already told you twice now that was not what I said, stop the nonsense! If you want to believe the bondwoman represents the law of Moses, and if you want to cast out the law and her son (whatever you think that might mean) then you go right ahead and follow that error all the way to the end.

But I would warn you against such folly.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Elin said:
Then I guess I need you to explain what you mean in your first post, at the top of this page.
Click to expand...

That was in response to you trying to misrepresent what I said earlier about the firstborn man of sin, I told you twice "Wrong firstborn Elin"...and again in the next "Again wrong firstborn Elin" So let me give it one more try WRONG FIRSTBORN ELIN!!!

I truly don't believe you are really that dense not to get it after 2 times, so one could only conclude your just being hardheaded or trying to be deceptive. In either case, I'm done talking with you Elin. Bye!
 
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin said:
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin said:
InSpiritInTruth said:
Elin, your missing the big picture of what the firstborn son represents in the scriptures, in Ishmael, in Adam, in Cain, Rueben, in Esau, etc; it repeats over and over in again scripture.
The bondage (in Gal 4:24,25? Elin) is of sin in the firstborn man,
that is the main theme of the Bible, not the law of Moses.
Click to expand...
But Paul is not talking about the firstborn man in Gal 4:21-31.
He is talking about the firstborn sons of Hagar and Sarah.

So if firstborn son represents bondage to sin, is the "church of the firstborn,"
whose names are written in heaven, also in bondage to sin, as you say is
what firstborn son represents in the Scriptures?

Heb 12:23:

"You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire;
to darkness, gloom and storm (old covenant of Mt. Sinai). . .But you have come to
Mt. Zion (new covenant) to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. . .to
the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven." (Heb 12:18, 22-23)
Click to expand...
Wrong firstborn Elin. Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Click to expand...
However, "firstborn" in Heb 12:23 is plural, and their names (plural) are written in heaven, so it does not refer to Christ, as does Col 1:18 above.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
We were all once dead in our sins, Elin.....that's why Jesus came.
Click to expand...
Agreed. . .but by "church of the firstborn," Heb 12:23 is referring to those who are born again,
and the born again are not dead in their sins, they are alive in Christ.
The letter to the Hebrews, who had lived the OT, is referring to the firstborn,
who were God's particular possession (Ex 13:2, 12-15 (Lk 2:23) by purchase.

. . .And that is what Hebrews 12:23 is referring to in the church of the firstborn; i.e., those that have been redeemed.

They are not in bondage to sin, nor is firstborn son a Scriptural figure of bondage to sin,
in fact, it is just the opposite--it is a figure of redemption from bondage to sin in the redeemedchurch of the firstborn.
Click to expand...
Again wrong firstborn Elin, the first state of man is flesh, not Spirit.

I am not talking about the firstborn from the dead. (hello)

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

If your going to try to twist what I say around, then don't even bother responding back. Have a nice day Elin. :)
Click to expand...
The above is the context of my question,
Then I guess I need you to explain what you mean in your second post, above.
because your response seems contradictory.

Can you show me what I am misunderstanding?
 
Last edited:
Even I wouldnt LOL! I would have left off pages ago, but I dont have that kind of endurance

If anything his patience has been tried and has been approved LOL

And I think the heavens of Elin but dont you think this has become a bit too much of a sport for you here?

Both of you make sense, Elin (earlier on) up to the law, and InSpirit in the broader sense of things.

This is messed up though
 
ISeeYou said:
Even I wouldnt LOL! I would have left off pages ago, but I dont have that kind of endurance

If anything his patience has been tried and has been approved LOL

And I think the heavens of Elin but dont you think this has become a bit too much of a sport for you here?

Both of you make sense, Elin (earlier on) up to the law, and InSpirit in the broader sense of things.

This is messed up though
Click to expand...
Did I misunderstand from the beginning when I understood her to say that the bondage of Gal 4:23-24
is bondage to sin and not bondage to the law?

If she said in the beginning that it was bondage to sin, then there is a contradiction in her following responses that is confusing me.
 
Elin said:
Did I misunderstand from the beginning when I understood her to say that the bondage of Gal 4:23-24
is bondage to sin and not bondage to the law?

If she said in the beginning that it was bondage to sin, then there is a contradiction in her following responses that is confusing me.
Click to expand...

She is "a he" Elin (see the no pink name tag)

I dont think you get confused Elin LOL

But I still do, and you lost me long before the thread was finished and I couldnt read the posts anymore (I am the master of scribbling posts) and I couldnt follow it any longer, who does this? LOL Then the firstborn of the flesh and the firstborn of the dead thing, it just started to appear more then just trying to understand anymore.

Well, its the first evening he has not said good night to me before heading off to bed, so I think he's had it
 
ISeeYou said:
She is "a he" Elin (see the no pink name tag)

I dont think you get confused Elin LOL

But I still do, and you lost me long before the thread was finished and I couldnt read the posts anymore (I am the master of scribbling posts) and I couldnt follow it any longer, who does this? LOL Then the firstborn of the flesh and the firstborn of the dead thing, it just started to appear more then just trying to understand anymore.

Well, its the first evening he has not said good night to me before heading off to bed, so I think he's had it
Click to expand...

In post #69, I think I've condensed clearly our conversation.
You can read it, instead of the whole string, to know what is confusing me regarding
Gal 4:21-31 and the bondage of vv. 23-24.

I am discussing the meaning of Gal 4:21-31, based on its text,
I am not discussing the meaning of a "bigger picture."
 
Elin said:
In post #69, I think I've condensed clearly our conversation.
You can read it, instead of the whole string, to know what is confusing me regarding
Gal 4:21-31 and the bondage of vv. 23-24.

I am discussing the meaning of Gal 4:21-31, based on its text,
and not the meaning of a "bigger picture."
Click to expand...

No way, I will never read any back and forth between the two of you again, this is my second and my last one LOL
 
ISeeYou said:
No way, I will never read any back and forth between the two of you again, this is my second and my last one LOL
Click to expand...
Okay, then he is the only one who can address my request at the bottom of post #69.
 
Last edited:
Elin said:

The above is the context of my question,
Then I guess I need you to explain what you mean in your second post, above.
because your response seems contradictory.

Can you show me what I am misunderstanding?
Click to expand...

I've tried 3 times to show you what your missing, but yet you still do not understand. Why is that? You are the one who is trying to make my statement contradictory. My original statement was about the firstborn man of sin who is of the bondwoman (bondage to sin) You then tried to make my statement apply to the born again man (firstborn from the dead); which I tried 3 times (now 4) to say no Elin "wrong firstborn Elin."

How in the world could you not understand that?

The firstborn man of sin is of the earthly Jerusalem.

The born again man (firstborn from the dead) is of the heavenly Jerusalem.

I color coded it so even a child could understand. :)
 
Last edited:
Here is where your insincerity first showed itself Elin, and I knew you were not playing stupid but were in fact trying to make my statement sound contradictory.

Originally Posted by Elin;1862298
So is the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven, also in bondage to sin?

Of a truth, you knew the answer to that question, and you also knew that was not what I was talking about. But you were just being sarcastic and trying to misrepresent what I was saying. That is why I got so upset, I don't like evil or playing games with those who try to misrepresent the truth.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back