50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,809
1,229
113
I'll try to make my question clearer: What is in the immortal body?


I missed this one, sorry. Immortal cannot ever die, and is the Glorified Body, and Christ is the Life giving force in that body.

In the mortal body the life giving force is the blood.

This should help:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (HCSB)
50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.
54 When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.


1 John 5:11 (NIV)
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Colossians 3:4 (ESV)
4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. {<--That is HEAVEN!}


NOW, scripture says that LIFE is in the BLOOD, here on earth, but in HEAVEN LIFE IS IN THE SON.


Leviticus 17:14 (GWT)
14 This is because the life of any creature is in its blood.
So I have said to the people of Israel:
Never eat any blood, because the life of any creature is in its blood.
Whoever eats blood must be excluded {from the people}.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
I have been telling them this type of thing for a long time now...


I have warned them concerning the Daniel's 70th week error many times...

But - what makes you think Jesus came back during the 1st century?

What verses of scripture apply?

(which you will no-doubt say were fully fulfilled at that time and are not referring to His "next" coming)

In your view, which verses refer to which coming?

Every place in scripture that refers to His 'coming' seems to indicate that there is only one [more] 'coming'.

How do you reconcile this with your view?
Jesus said to John that John would be alive for his coming. (john 21)
He said also in John 16 that he had to go away 'a short while'.
It is not something I've studied but it seems clear to me that
Jesus returns at least once prior to the day of the Lord.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
I have been telling them this type of thing for a long time now...


I have warned them concerning the Daniel's 70th week error many times...

But - what makes you think Jesus came back during the 1st century?

What verses of scripture apply?

(which you will no-doubt say were fully fulfilled at that time and are not referring to His "next" coming)

In your view, which verses refer to which coming?

Every place in scripture that refers to His 'coming' seems to indicate that there is only one [more] 'coming'.

How do you reconcile this with your view?
I think it is a subject that deserves more than a
rattled-off post. Several hours of study are needed.
But I am not sure Jesus ever restricted himself to one return.
Which verses stipulate such a thing?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Sorry for chiming in but it's quite clear that you are both wrong about Daniel's 70th week prophecy. There really is only one correct view. And neither of yours qualify.
I imagine you bellowing in a Brian Blessed type voice.

I am wondering whether, if the hapless TDW got hacked and started writing
supreme dribble, you would continue your cult leader henchman act....:ROFL:
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
[QUOTE="cv5, post: 4580709, member: 277646"Still waiting for one of Waldroods 50 reasons to be quashed nullified or disposed.[/QUOTE]
Where did Walvoord provide the verse that says that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven? He believes that WITHOUT REASON.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Jesus said to John that John would be alive for his coming. (john 21)
Here is the text:
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)

21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

I think the point Jesus was making is that John was none of Peter's business. Jesus had just told Peter to "Follow Me", 3 times. So Peter wanted to know what John was to do. Remember that Jesus had already been resurrected. So, what was Jesus referring to by His statement "until I return"? Since there are no other references in the NT about any return other than what is called the Second Avent or Coming, it seems obvious that Jesus was referring to His return to end the Trib and begin His Millennial reign.

btw, there's an interesting verse, Acts 3:21. My previous edition of NIV says "Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration of everything". The latest edition says "Heaven must receive Him until...", which is what most translations have.

However, here are some translations:

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.
Good News Translation
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

So I looked up the Greek word for "receive". My Greek lexicon has "to receive, retain, to contain".

So even though some or most of the above translations are paraphrases, the word "keep" fits with my lexicon's definition.

So this verse teaches that Jesus will remain in heaven until the Millennium.

He said also in John 16 that he had to go away 'a short while'.
It is not something I've studied but it seems clear to me that
Jesus returns at least once prior to the day of the Lord.
Since Peter wrote this in 2 Pter 3:8 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day., it seems to be an explanation of what Jesus meant by His "soon return".

It's been about 2,000 years since His First Advent. Given 2 Peter 3:8, one could reasonably say He's been gone only for a few days, relatively speaking. Keep in mind Peter's words were in the middle of a passage discussing creation. So the time comparison can be applied several ways.

First, we know from Genesis God worked for 6 days, and then rested the 7th. Apply that to human history, and we have about 6,000 years up to this point. What's left? The Millennium, a period of obvious rest for the earth.

Second, Jesus' comments about His "imminent" return can be understood by the relative comparison, so He's only been gone for several days.

If Jesus made a return to earth between His resurrection and the Millennial kingdom, is there a verse/passage that describes it?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Could you please expand on this "second coming in the first century"?
Well I think there are several comings. But the first reappearance would be the Holy Spirit.

John 14: 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Here is the text:
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”)

21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.”

23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

I think the point Jesus was making is that John was none of Peter's business. Jesus had just told Peter to "Follow Me", 3 times. So Peter wanted to know what John was to do. Remember that Jesus had already been resurrected. So, what was Jesus referring to by His statement "until I return"? Since there are no other references in the NT about any return other than what is called the Second Avent or Coming, it seems obvious that Jesus was referring to His return to end the Trib and begin His Millennial reign.

btw, there's an interesting verse, Acts 3:21. My previous edition of NIV says "Jesus must remain in heaven until the restoration of everything". The latest edition says "Heaven must receive Him until...", which is what most translations have.

However, here are some translations:

New Living Translation
For he must remain in heaven until the time for the final restoration of all things, as God promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Amplified Bible
whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Contemporary English Version
But Jesus must stay in heaven until God makes all things new, just as his holy prophets promised long ago.
Good News Translation
He must remain in heaven until the time comes for all things to be made new, as God announced through his holy prophets of long ago.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

So I looked up the Greek word for "receive". My Greek lexicon has "to receive, retain, to contain".

So even though some or most of the above translations are paraphrases, the word "keep" fits with my lexicon's definition.

So this verse teaches that Jesus will remain in heaven until the Millennium.


Since Peter wrote this in 2 Pter 3:8 - But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day., it seems to be an explanation of what Jesus meant by His "soon return".

It's been about 2,000 years since His First Advent. Given 2 Peter 3:8, one could reasonably say He's been gone only for a few days, relatively speaking. Keep in mind Peter's words were in the middle of a passage discussing creation. So the time comparison can be applied several ways.

First, we know from Genesis God worked for 6 days, and then rested the 7th. Apply that to human history, and we have about 6,000 years up to this point. What's left? The Millennium, a period of obvious rest for the earth.

Second, Jesus' comments about His "imminent" return can be understood by the relative comparison, so He's only been gone for several days.

If Jesus made a return to earth between His resurrection and the Millennial kingdom, is there a verse/passage that describes it?
Why? Jesus said he would return in John's lifetime.
The disciples all jumped to the conclusion that John would be transfigured,
i.e. would be alive for Jesus' Final coming.
Jesus repudiated their false understanding.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,148
7,208
113
I imagine you bellowing in a Brian Blessed type voice.

I am wondering whether, if the hapless TDW got hacked and started writing
supreme dribble, you would continue your cult leader henchman act....:ROFL:
Says the guy that thinks Jesus told John he would be alive at his coming.
And forgot the part where John explained why he wouldn't be.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Well I think there are several comings. But the first reappearance would be the Holy Spirit.

John 14: 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Why do you consider the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be a "coming of the Lord"?

Thanks.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Why? Jesus said he would return in John's lifetime.
The text does not say that.

The disciples all jumped to the conclusion that John would be transfigured,
Correct. An incorrect conclusion.

i.e. would be alive for Jesus' Final coming.
Jesus didn't say John would be alive for Jesus' return. He said "IF he remains".

Jesus repudiated their false understanding.
Yes He did.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Why do you consider the universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be a "coming of the Lord"?

Thanks.
Because Jesus said so

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
The text does not say that.


Correct. An incorrect conclusion.


Jesus didn't say John would be alive for Jesus' return. He said "IF he remains".


Yes He did.
In plain sight - not even hidden

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,967
4,585
113
I'll try to make my question clearer: What is in the immortal body?

That part besides CHRIST in us, is not answered in the Bible, that I know of. It implies CHRIST emptied HIS Blood around the Altar of Sacrifice, as the earthy Altar is mirrored after the Heavenly, and is says we will have the Same Type of body as CHRIST HAS. That to me means the Glorified Body has NO BLOOD. It also say we will eat the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. BUT the food we eat, has to be different. No mention of a Toilet, or even an outhouse in heaven, so that could mean every bit of the food, must be totally digestible.


1 John 3:2 (NIV)
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 13:12 (NIV)
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Because Jesus said so

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
That's not what He said. In v.18 He was referring to His Second Advent. In v.19 He was affirming the disciples that they had eternal life and would see Him again. This doesn't refer to the Second Advent, but the fact that they will be in heaven when they die, because He will already be there.

If you take v.18 to be a reference to the Holy Spirit, then there is no difference between Jesus and the Spirit. But there is. They are two separate but equal Personalities.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
In plain sight - not even hidden

22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
The word "if" is the key. Jesus was giving Peter a hypothetical. Not a statement of fact. Then Jesus asks Peter, "what is that to you".
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
That part besides CHRIST in us, is not answered in the Bible, that I know of. It implies CHRIST emptied HIS Blood around the Altar of Sacrifice
This poster seems totally unaware of Scripture. There is NOTHING about Jesus "emptying His blood at the cross". In fact, after He had already paid the sin debt by His own words, "It is finished" which means "paid in full" in the Greek, only then did He physically die.

So when the soldiers pierced His side, out came "blood and water". One thing is sure: Jesus didn't bleed to death.

People need to read more carefully.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
That's not what He said. In v.18 He was referring to His Second Advent. In v.19 He was affirming the disciples that they had eternal life and would see Him again. This doesn't refer to the Second Advent, but the fact that they will be in heaven when they die, because He will already be there.

If you take v.18 to be a reference to the Holy Spirit, then there is no difference between Jesus and the Spirit. But there is. They are two separate but equal Personalities.
It is what he said - or do you not believe Scripture?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
The word "if" is the key. Jesus was giving Peter a hypothetical. Not a statement of fact. Then Jesus asks Peter, "what is that to you".
The condition is not regarding whether Jesus comes or not - that is a given.
Read the words, they are not abstruse.