50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
Apparently you are just not aware of where the phrases "First Advent" and "Second Advent" came from.

The Bible prophesied about Jesus' first coming or advent and His second coming or advent. Why do you think the Bible MUST use those exact words to make a point? Just like the "Trinity", the word doesn't occur in the Bible, but the Bible teaches it clearly.

So, because of the Bible's TWO prophecies concerning Jesus' coming to earth, that's what I count. The Bible didn't prophesy about either Jesus' appearance to Paul or John. So I don't count them as "comings".

You are free to count whatever you want.


I just find it mildly comical that the two central pillars of much theological discourse,
the Second Coming and the Great Tribulation, are neither wholly correct, the first being a
simplification and the latter a monumental error.

Waffle FG.
I am not going to do your homework for you.

Did Jesus visit Abraham, yes or no?
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
ewq1938 said:
You are wrong on both of those.

The second coming comes from these:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a "second time" and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.


The Great Tribulation comes from here:

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Ah, the old "pitting Scripture against Scripture" routine, I see. Doesn't work. Total harmony in all of Scripture.


Just look at prophesy. Only 2. Not 3, not 4. Or more.
Ah the old 'let's start a silly heated debate' routine because I don't actually have a clue what I am talking about
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Daniel 9:24-27 says absolutely none of this.

Not even close.

Completely different.

No commonality whatsoever.

Jacob's Trouble is Armageddon.

My answer to the whole issue:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html


And that is the War will continue until the end, that Daniel mention Dan. 9:26, and on top of it all,
and desolations have been decreed, committing horrible SINS in Jerusalem:


Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.


Are you blind to all of this? If that is the case, your False Prophet has blinded you.



The Nations gather to make war against Israel, in the Valley of Megiddo, then go on to ISRAEL to make WAR against the KING of kings.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
And that is the War will continue until the end, that Daniel mention Dan. 9:26, and on top of it all,
and desolations have been decreed, committing horrible SINS in Jerusalem:


Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.


Are you blind to all of this? If that is the case, your False Prophet has blinded you.



The Nations gather to make war against Israel, in the Valley of Megiddo, then go on to ISRAEL to make WAR against the KING of kings.
Ok, now can we have the bad news?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,682
8,224
113
My King James Bible says 'Yep!'.


Nope!


The default common-sense view and understanding is 'no gap'.

And, there is no biblical reason for us to even imagine that there should be any gap(s) in Daniel's 70 Weeks.

The idea that there is a gap in Daniel's 70 Weeks is extraneous and "conjured up" out of the severe misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27.

When God shows you the truth, all of that pride you have will disappear in an instant and you will feel about as tall as the electron in a hydrogen atom.


The only feet I will sit at belong to Jesus.

And, He always knows what He is talking about.

I will sit at the same table with anyone else - if you "get my meaning"...


For now - any questions you have for me will be answered with this:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html
Good luck. Trust me you're gonna need it.....
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
ewq1938 said:
You are wrong on both of those.

The second coming comes from these:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a "second time" and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.


The Great Tribulation comes from here:

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Ah, the old "pitting Scripture against Scripture" routine, I see. Doesn't work. Total harmony in all of Scripture.


Just look at prophesy. Only 2. Not 3, not 4. Or more.
Your second coming scriptures leave out His THIRD (3rd) coming.

He is coming the next time (2nd coming) FOR His church, but only to the air, as shown in 1 Thes. 4 - a coming scripture you failed to list. He will come the 3rd time and touch down. Acts tells us He will come just as they saw Him leave, and Rev. 19 shows this coming.

Trying to force two more comings into one simply does not work.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Your second coming scriptures leave out His THIRD (3rd) coming.
Nope. There are just 2 Advents. Both of which were prophesied in the OT.

He is coming the next time (2nd coming) FOR His church, but only to the air, as shown in 1 Thes. 4 - a coming scripture you failed to list.
Nope. I didn't fail anything. I properly understand Scripture. 1 Thess 4 says NOTHING about Jesus returning to heaven (HUGE U-turn) with resurrected and raptured believers. So it is describing His FINAL (and second, for those who are counting) return to earth, where He will set up His Kingdom.

He will come the 3rd time and touch down. Acts tells us He will come just as they saw Him leave, and Rev. 19 shows this coming.
I believe all the rapture verses show him coming "in the clouds". Your "3rd coming" is really the second and FINAL coming.

Trying to force two more comings into one simply does not work.
Of course it doesn't. Why do you do that?

First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and is the suffering servant and Savior.
Second Advent: Jesus comes to earth as King and Judge.

Both were prophesied in Scripture. No other visit was prophesied.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
1,293
107
63
Nope. There are just 2 Advents. Both of which were prophesied in the OT.


Nope. I didn't fail anything. I properly understand Scripture. 1 Thess 4 says NOTHING about Jesus returning to heaven (HUGE U-turn) with resurrected and raptured believers. So it is describing His FINAL (and second, for those who are counting) return to earth, where He will set up His Kingdom.


I believe all the rapture verses show him coming "in the clouds". Your "3rd coming" is really the second and FINAL coming.


Of course it doesn't. Why do you do that?

First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and is the suffering servant and Savior.
Second Advent: Jesus comes to earth as King and Judge.

Both were prophesied in Scripture. No other visit was prophesied.
We don't form scripture from one lone verse, but from all end time verses. What 1 Thes 4 does not say, John 14 does say.

Whenever Jesus comes, glory clouds follow Him. This fact alone does not tell us much about which coming a verse is about.
I properly understand Scripture.
If this was true, you would now He is coming twice more.

What you miss: no prophet in the Old Testament understood anything about the Gentile church of today. It was added as a parenthesis to Jewish time because Israel as a nation did not accept Jesus as their Messiah. For the church, we find our doctrine in the Pauline Epistles. There is very little in the gospels pointed directly at the Gentile church of today.

If you wish to stay behind and try to live through God's wrath, when scripture tells us you will be "overcome" of course you can. But why not take God's escape route out of here and enjoy the time of God's wrath on earth, in heaven with the rest of the church?

TRUTH:
First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and is the suffering servant and Savior.
Second advent: Jesus comes to the clouds FOR His bride.
Third Advent: Jesus comes to earth as King and Judge.
 
Oct 23, 2020
971
164
43
We don't form scripture from one lone verse, but from all end time verses. What 1 Thes 4 does not say, John 14 does say.

Whenever Jesus comes, glory clouds follow Him. This fact alone does not tell us much about which coming a verse is about.
If this was true, you would now He is coming twice more.

What you miss: no prophet in the Old Testament understood anything about the Gentile church of today. It was added as a parenthesis to Jewish time because Israel as a nation did not accept Jesus as their Messiah. For the church, we find our doctrine in the Pauline Epistles. There is very little in the gospels pointed directly at the Gentile church of today.

If you wish to stay behind and try to live through God's wrath, when scripture tells us you will be "overcome" of course you can. But why not take God's escape route out of here and enjoy the time of God's wrath on earth, in heaven with the rest of the church?

TRUTH:
First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and is the suffering servant and Savior.
Second advent: Jesus comes to the clouds FOR His bride.
Third Advent: Jesus comes to earth as King and Judge.
Ya, these two-timers are really out to lunch.
But hey, if they want to suck up Catholic doctrines,
and refuse correction, what can we do?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,104
2,140
113
It'll all happen somewhat like this...

 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
And that is the War will continue until the end, that Daniel mention Dan. 9:26, and on top of it all,
and desolations have been decreed, committing horrible SINS in Jerusalem:


Zechariah 14:2 (HCSB)
2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.


Are you blind to all of this? If that is the case, your False Prophet has blinded you.



The Nations gather to make war against Israel, in the Valley of Megiddo, then go on to ISRAEL to make WAR against the KING of kings.

I forgot to mention , that WAR could be World War III, a fuel scale Nuclear War. The city of Jerusalem half them population goes into voluntary Exile. Most are killed, EXCEPT for the 144,000 sealed by the Holy Spirit, flews the to the East into Jordan after HIS feet touch down on the Mt. of Olives. He sends them out, through that Valley after the mountain splits to a place of safety. AND TURNS to the Valley of Megiddo to end ALL WHO ARE TRYING TO STOP HIS RETURN.

Rev. 14:20 – Then the press was trampled outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press up to the horses’ bridles for about 180 miles. (HCSB)

That is How many combatants on in that VALLEY that are killed instantly.

Zechariah 14:12 (HCSB)
12 This will be the plague the LORD strikes all the peoples with, who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.


YES, I believe that all is to be interpreted LITERALLY.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Your second coming scriptures leave out His THIRD (3rd) coming.

He is coming the next time (2nd coming) FOR His church, but only to the air, as shown in 1 Thes. 4 - a coming scripture you failed to list. He will come the 3rd time and touch down. Acts tells us He will come just as they saw Him leave, and Rev. 19 shows this coming.

Trying to force two more comings into one simply does not work.
Pretty much so

But the nail in the coffin is rev 14

Get them to unpack that and mat 25 if you want a good laugh.

Busted big time
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Rev 14 is neither the rapture or the second coming.

But in the rapture of 1 Thes 4 and rev 14 jesus meets them in the atmosphere.

Most here miss the plan and purposes of end times

It is the gathering of the gentile bride and the wayward wife.

Then earths redemption with the devil on pause
The wicked judged
The new jerusalem on into eternity


Not " daniel study"...endlessly connecting dots. Un numbered dots
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
We don't form scripture from one lone verse, but from all end time verses.
Nor do I.

What 1 Thes 4 does not say, John 14 does say.
Just what does John say about a pretrib rapture? Make sure there's context that supports one.

Whenever Jesus comes, glory clouds follow Him.
Yep. In every rapture verse. Which are Second Coming verses.

This fact alone does not tell us much about which coming a verse is about.
There's only a Second Advent.

What you miss: no prophet in the Old Testament understood anything about the Gentile church of today.
I haven't missed that. The fact is, it isn't relevant to end times and Christ's Second Advent.

[QUTOE] It was added as a parenthesis to Jewish time because Israel as a nation did not accept Jesus as their Messiah. For the church, we find our doctrine in the Pauline Epistles. There is very little in the gospels pointed directly at the Gentile church of today.[/QUOTE]
More irrelevancy.

If you wish to stay behind and try to live through God's wrath, when scripture tells us you will be "overcome" of course you can.
I hope you're not serious here. When Jesus comes to resurrect the accompanying dead saints and rapture all living saints, there won't be decisions about whether to "stay behind" or not. That is just ludicrous.

But why not take God's escape route out of here and enjoy the time of God's wrath on earth, in heaven with the rest of the church?[/JUOTE]
Once again, this is just ludicrous. Saints aren't given a choice.

TRUTH:
First Advent: Jesus comes to earth as a baby, and is the suffering servant and Savior.
Second advent: Jesus comes to the clouds FOR His bride.
Third Advent: Jesus comes to earth as King and Judge.
The only problem is your counting. The VAST MAJORITY of His Bride will ALREADY be in heaven, since there's been about 2,000 of the deaths of the Bride, so most of the Bride is already in heaven, and will accompany Jesus when He comes back to given them resurrection bodies and rapture the living saints and giving them the same kind of bodies, all of which will be imperishable.

Could you provide a verse that makes clear that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven?

If not, there is no reason to believe it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Ya, these two-timers are really out to lunch.
But hey, if they want to suck up Catholic doctrines,
and refuse correction, what can we do?
Getting a grip would be advised. And accepting correction, of course. :)