A believers Assurance

[GreenNnice]

Speaking what truth?
I dont even understand what your saying!
You didnt speak any scripture...what are you even rambling on about?

your being "led" by what?
Whatever it is you should let go and get a grip.

I know, it's complex, but really, for me, it's quite simple , the Lord leads, His grace, mercy, Love shewed, all THROUGH my given faith from Him USED to follow Him, NOT lean on my own understanding for His given lot in life for me, it's all good from God,cane, if not, hey, I accept it, and, examine myself and go on,cand on... I live a life of trusting in Him leading me and He gave us a 'Helper,' not to mention, a Truth that the Holy Spirit MUST be present in our lives for not just eternal blessings, a.k.a. rewards, but for eternal Life also, as opposed to 'eternal death.'

Gripping 'it' yet, squirrelabiding ?

Because I can go on, and, on, but if you call this rambling focusedness here of Holy Spirit thought, I hate to think of what you think of some of my longer posts , lol

 

[Abiding]

I know, it's complex, but really, for me, it's quite simple , the Lord leads, His grace, mercy, Love shewed, all THROUGH my given faith from Him USED to follow Him, NOT lean on my own understanding for His given lot in life for me, it's all good from God,cane, if not, hey, I accept it, and, examine myself and go on,cand on... I live a life of trusting in Him leading me and He gave us a 'Helper,' not to mention, a Truth that the Holy Spirit MUST be present in our lives for not just eternal blessings, a.k.a. rewards, but for eternal Life also, as opposed to 'eternal death.'

Gripping 'it' yet, squirrelabiding ?

Because I can go on, and, on, but if you call this rambling focusedness here of Holy Spirit thought, I hate to think of what you think of some of my longer posts , lol

I need to ask you for one thing....im fine with what your writing there.
I cant take anymore when you contend for an error sometimes of great implication
and end it with a cute smile and say you were led....

as if to say believe me....the HolySpirit was leading me to say this or that.

BULL the HolySpirit NEVER leads us into error...so please stop attributing it to Him
Its slopy and Dishonoring to Him an anyone that belongs to Him.

You stand behind your words and let God stand behind His.

 

[JaumeJ]

Complex is not for children. The simplicity of trust should never be made to sound complex. We all do go this route on occasion, usually when led by knew knowledge enticing toward this end.

It is not a law or command but there is the way of the good child in approaching our Lord for all the assurance ever needed. It is not a complex theory to be applied. It is always best said by the Master.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Abiding]

Complex is not for children. The simplicity of trust should never be made to sound complex. We all do go this route on occasion, usually when led by knew knowledge enticing toward this end.

It is not a law or command but there is the way of the good child in approaching our Lord for all the assurance ever needed. It is not a complex theory to be applied. It is always best said by the Master.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Besides the all day mob intrusions which wernt exactly welcomed
can you explain more what made you say that.

the truth you wrote can stand on its own...just wondered if it had any special wisdom for this particular thread

My op was just a simple paper for one in doubt to look over for
comfort more than anything. Not a pat on the back but more of an
honest test be it passible or no.

 

[JaumeJ]

Besides the all day mob intrusions which wernt exactly welcomed
can you explain more what made you say that.

the truth you wrote can stand on its own...just wondered if it had any special wisdom for this particular thread

My op was just a simple paper for one in doubt to look over for
comfort more than anything. Not a pat on the back but more of an
honest test be it passible or no.

I was going by the topic of the thread vs what I was reading and, frankly, not understanding at all. The words of the Master came to mind in relation to the two, so there you have it. Yeshua did it! He does everything. I really should read more than the title of the op!

 

[Abiding]

the title was just quick when i woke up in the middle of the night
having the day unsettled in my mind

the rest of the posts arnt worth reading

 

[JaumeJ]

OK, at the risk of sounding like some Bible snob, I actually had already read the text of the op.

I believe my answering to the actual title is correct only because when relating and attempting to live the Word, I am wary, even afraid of writings about the Word without the author present to explain all.

Being here with the family in Yeshua is fine because we can relate to the Word, but writings are just that, print, lifeless and unable to elaborate upon themselves, while the Word has the promise of the Holy Spirit for any needed understanding.

There are times, most of the time, when we do not understand what we read in the Word at all, and faith takes over in these instances.

 

[Cobus]

I have it this way about my assurance, AM I SURE I AM SAVED? NO NO NO NO!!! You see I have tasted it, but I know I am not served YET! ... This is the bomber.... Jesus said.... Come to me and I will give you rest! and a Peace I will give you that you cannot even contemplate in your mind!.... AHA!!! Do i have that peace, NO! Oh many say they do, but I look at their peace and boy if that is the peace Jesus gives, then I have a better one!

No, this peace Jesus gives is so amazing you CANNOT describe it to another person. It is a state of bliss, and holiness and LIFE of GOOD and only in HIM it is to be found. That is what assurance should be. Not this I AM A CHRISTIAN statement and nothing to show! God said the lamo of the body is the eyes.... If I look in your eyes their should be LIGHT. Light of GOD! No darkness.... LIGHT!

And the soul.... Daved said... It is well with my soul.... Well me, Cobus CANNOT say that. But I keep one promise of God with me today.... God said He is a rewarder of those that seek Him dilligently... I will seek Him diligently, and I wonder what He rewards with.... Peace, Rest, Joy, Light, Life, and ALL OF CHRIST JESUS! WOW what an awesome God this is!

I pray... FATHER Let me seek THEE diligently, Amen!

 

[psychomom]

Now, to play fair, ensurance is a made up word, but 'ensured' is not and NOWHERE does Scripture say we are ASSURED of our blessed assurance by mere grace . Nope. No 'where.' Or, prove me wrong, love to see where..

Green, please, please, tell me you did not mean to say "mere grace"!


-ellie

 

[ForthAngel]

Just wanna say thanks Abiding for this thread. I had questions about this just the other day and someone went over some stuff with me mirroring what you have said. I have some scriptures that might help too. At least they helped me when it came to this subject.

2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:




Phllippians 2:8-15

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Thanks again for your encouraging post.

 

[psychomom]

Just wanna say thanks Abiding for this thread. I had questions about this just the other day and someone went over some stuff with me mirroring what you have said. I have some scriptures that might help too. At least they helped me when it came to this subject.

2 Peter 1
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:




Phllippians 2:8-15

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


Thanks again for your encouraging post.

I'm so glad you quoted God from Phil. 2:13.

Sometimes I think we might forget that it all begins and ends with the Lord's grace.
He wills it done, and He does it. Voilà!

We have no righteousness of our own, yet by God's grace we are found righteous in Christ. (Rom. 3:22, 4:24, 5:1, 5:9; Gal. 2:16, 5:5)

Thanks for your encouraging post! ♥
-ellie

 

[1still_waters]

I love how all these people stuck on the religious doctrines and traditions of men, keep erecting beautiful straw men with such perfection, only to knock them down with the same perfection. It really is quite a skill.

Seriously, who teaches that a Christian can live in willful sin and still be considered a Christian? It's such a straw man in the first place.

These religious teachers of men, who are stuck in their denominational spirits end up putting people in further bondage and guilt when they misrepresent assurance by constructing such a straw man in the first place.

But I guess that's to be expected from denominational, religious teachers who are threatened by grace. The same people constructed false straw men about grace in Paul's day. He of course shot down such straw men by showing that faith and grace of course isn't a license to sin.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It's time for people to drop their religious denominational spirits and traditions of men, and allow believers to walk in the full assurance Jesus provides. Quit constructing straw men that portray a false assertion about a very real thing.

 

[GreenNnice]

Green, please, please, tell me you did not mean to say "mere grace"!


-ellie

'Mere grace' said in the sense, pschomommy, of that it is NOT what saves you, we are saved 'through faith.'

We are saved 'by grace,' but through faith.

Oh, no, grace is not mere at all, it is wonderful and blessed in each our individual lives as God shews it too, us,, but, when applied to Ephesians 2:8. It is the big LITTLE thing, as 'grace' here equals God giving us His Son, so that we might have life, and, that we might have it abundantly.

Live FULL in His wonderful grace, milady, for God is grace-fully given you so much abounding of it, covers your sin, aboundingly 'Course, course, yes, important to note, God hates sin (not the sinner), and, God forbid we sin because of having His grace

Three smilies for ya, mommynotpsychoasherkidssay, how's that for 'grace?' Hmm, maybe that's Love, actually.




LOL , didn't notice until a second ago, and, will 'edit' this to include Romans 6 , (thx, still ) because stilledwaters just put the verse I was contexting my speaking around. Now, how's THAT for the Lord's leading, and, absolutely, willful sin is WRONG, willful obedience is right. The Lord leads

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[Abiding]

Green i still encourage you to learn what grace means...also faith.

Heres how you sound.....Gods grace(His work) was cool and all...BUT "our" faith: now thats the big thing!

Do you realize that both faith and grace are both gifts of God. "you" had neither.
Untill you learn and understand more, id suggest teaching something you know.
Im sure there are plenty of things.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

John McArthur is a false teacher, flee from Him, YOU are commanded to NOT follow man, but to follow God!

John McArthur​

Free from Guilt

Questions and Answers from JM :
How far can a 'Christian' go on sinning?
I recently read a book about Christians and sin that began with an unusual account. The author of this book was acquainted with a pastor who had been sent to prison for robbing fourteen banks to finance his alliances with prostitutes! The author was fully convinced the bank-robbing Lothario was a true Christian, and so he wrote a book to explore how such a thing could be possible.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think it is fair to raise the question of whether someone who regularly robs banks to pay for illicit sex is truly saved! That man's sin was secretly his lifestyle. There is every reason to believe that he would still be committing his crimes today if he had not been caught. Can we concede that this "so-called brother" is a genuine Christian, just because he was once an evangelical pastor?
True, we cannot judge the man's heart, but we must judge his behavior (1 Cor. 5:12). "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-11). In those verses the apostle Paul was describing sins of chronic behavior, sins that color one's whole character. A predilection for such sins reflects an unregenerate heart. Paul reminded the Corinthians, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God" (v. 12, emphasis added).
But wait. Doesn't Scripture include examples of believers who committed gross sin? Didn't David commit murder and adultery and allow his sin to go unconfessed for at least a year? Wasn't Lot characterized by worldly compromise in the midst of heinous sin? Yes, those examples prove that genuine believers are capable of the worst imaginable sins. But David and Lot cannot be made to serve as examples of "carnal" believers, whose whole lifestyle and appetites are no different from unregenerate people.
David, for example, did repent thoroughly of his sin when Nathan confronted him, and he willingly accepted the Lord's discipline (2 Sam. 12:1-23). Psalm 51 is an expression of David's deep repentance at the end of this sordid episode in his life. The point, after all, is that this was merely one episode in David's life. He was certainly not predisposed to that kind of sin. In fact, 1 Kings 15:5 says, "David did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite" (emphasis added).
Lot is a different case. Not much is known about him from the Old Testament account, but what is recorded about him is disappointing. He was a pathetic example of compromise and disobedience. On the eve of Sodom's destruction, when he should have fled the city, "he hesitated" (Gen. 19:16). The angelic messengers had to seize his hand and put him outside the city. Near the end of his life, his two daughters got him drunk and committed incest with him (Gen. 19:30-38). Lot certainly did seem to have a proclivity for sins of compromise and worldliness.
Yet the inspired New Testament writer tells us Lot was "oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds)" (2 Pet. 2:8). He hated sin and desired righteousness. He had respect for holy angels-evidence of his fear of God (Gen. 19:1-14). He obeyed God by not looking back at Sodom when God's judgment rained down (cf. v. 26).
Lot was certainly not "carnal" in the sense that he lacked spiritual desires. Though he lived in a wicked place, he was not wicked himself. His soul was "tormented," vexed, grieved, tortured with severe pain at the sight of the evil all around him. Evidently his conscience did not become seared; he "felt his righteous soul tormented day after day" with the evil deeds of those around him. Though he lived in Sodom, he never became a Sodomite. Those who use him as an illustration of someone who is saved but utterly carnal miss the point of 2 Peter 2:8.
What is the lesson of Lot's life as Peter saw it? Verse 9 sums it up: "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."
In Lot's case, one means the Lord used to rescue him from temptation was severe chastisement. Lot lost his home; his wife was killed by divine judgment; and his own daughters disgraced and debased him. He paid a terrible price for his sin, being "tormented day after day." If Lot proves anything, it is that true believers cannot sin with impunity.
God always chastens and disciplines His children who sin. If they do not experience chastening, they are not truly His children, but spiritual bastards. Hebrews 12:7-8 explicitly states this: "What son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons." The specific purpose for which He disciplines us is "for our good, that we may share His holiness" (Heb. 12:10).
All of that flies in the face of the notion that millions of Christians live in a state of unbroken carnality. If these people are true children of God, why are they not constantly under His discipline?
As we have said, MacArthur is very slick. First he points out that Scripture emphatically says that certain types of behavior will keep you out of the Kingdom. (1Cor6:9-10, Gal5:19-21) AND that you can be known by the type of Fruit you are producing! (Although he's quick to point out that no one knows the heart) Then he raises the dilemma of 'Christians' in the Bible who fell into grievous sins, 'King David and Lot'. Now he has to suggest that Paul is only speaking of a 'Chronic' behavior of repeated offenses. Implying that a Real Christian can indeed commit Adultery and Murder and REMAIN in a State of Salvation, un-confessed, but under Divine Chastisement. But the Bible makes no such distinction, it simply says: 'If you DO these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom!' And John Clearly Points out that 'No Murder has Eternal life abiding in him', 1John3:15. Of course JM can't condone such sinful behavior, but at the same time his theology will not allow him to say that these people were in danger of losing their soul. He tried to discourage 'carnal' Christianity, but ends up supporting eternal security! WHY not rather use Joseph, Noah, Enoch as examples of Doing the Right thing if you want to promote obedience to the faith? JM's teaching only confuses the issue. How close is it to the horrible, blatant assumption that God will KILL a Sinning Saint and take him to heaven early for his grievous acts? Such men as David and Lot stand as DIRE warnings to the rest of us, NOT to Temp the Lord in like manner .....Remember Esau, Heb12:16-17, who went beyond Repentance, that it's possible to go too far.

Declared Righteous: What Actually Changes?
In its theological sense, justification is a forensic, or purely legal, term. It describes what God declares about the believer, not what He does to change the believer. In fact, justification effects no actual change whatsoever in the sinner's nature or character. Justification is a divine judicial edict. It changes our status only, but it carries ramifications that guarantee other changes will follow. Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification.
The Most effective method of explaining away the necessity of the Old man dying with Christ in Repentance, Rom6:4-6, is separating Justification from sanctification. The Bible DOES NOT disjoin them! (Acts26:18, 1Cor6:11) That way Real Obedience to Christ remains provisional. If God can Declare you Justified while you remain in a state of Sin (because He looks at Jesus instead of you) where is your motivation to Obey anything the Bible says? It's all optional! Christ stands as your Substitute and fulfills all your moral obligations to God. Certainly JM would insist that 'IF' you were really saved, you would Obey, but listen closely and the bottom line remains the same.
How Justification and Sanctification Differ
Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:
· Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
· Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
· Justification is an event, sanctification a process.
Again they disconnect the Death of the Old Man with the act of Justification. In other words....FIRST you Get Saved in your sins! THEN God makes you Righteous! It has Nothing to do with you Repenting or obeying from your heart, getting clear of your sins or becoming Pure by faith. So you come out of yours sins 'gradually'...by process. NOT as Paul said in Rom6:6, as a once and for all, not to be repeated event that frees you from the Power and Corruption of sin. God only declares a person Righteous who has Stopped sinning and has been Crucified with Christ, Gal2:16-21. It happens simultaneously, it is NOT two separate acts.

On Limited Atonement JM Says:
We have learned, the doctrine of absolute inability means that people will only be saved if God saves them, and therefore salvation is based upon the decree of God, the sovereign doctrine of election. No one could be saved unless God saved him and God saves those whom He chooses to save. You cannot expect the sinner on his own, no matter how he's emotionally prodded or psychologically prodded, no matter how he's threatened, no matter what you say to him, on his own you cannot expect him to quote/unquote decide for Christ. ...Number one, the atonement is limited. And by atonement I mean the sacrifice of Christ by which He paid the penalty for sin. The atonement is limited. Now let's look at this at just some obvious passages. Matthew 10...Matthew chapter 10 and I'm not going to wait for you, so you might want to write these down. Matthew 10:28, we've got to go, verse 28, gird up your loins, here we go, Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear...do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." That's also quoted in Luke 12 as we've been learning. There is a hell and God is going to send people there. That tells me the atonement is limited. There is a hell and God is going to send people there. I don't have any problem at all saying the atonement is limited. I don't have any problem at all saying how it's limited, it's limited to those who believe. And I have no problem saying and those who believe are those whom God grants faith and therefore the atonement is limited because God limited it. It is also true that when Scripture speaks of divine love, the focus is usually on God’s eternal love toward the elect. God’s love for mankind reaches fruition in the election of those whom He saves. And not every aspect of divine love is extended to all sinners without exception. Otherwise, all would be elect, and all would ultimately be saved. Now, as you come to chapter 4, Paul uses Abraham as an illustration of that, He is an illustration of justification by faith. He is an illustration that men and women come into a right relationship to God through believing in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. And we've been learning that justification then, or God imputing to us His righteousness, God putting His righteousness to our account must be seen in two ways. First of all, it is a forensic declaration, that is a statement of God relative to judicial reality. By that I mean God says, in fact, we are legally righteous. The legal payment has been paid, the wages of sin is death, Christ died the death. If we are granted the appropriation of that death through faith then legally we are right with God, Payment has been made. That is what forensic means. It is a legal declaration. And so, we are legally pronounced just.
Classic Augustinian Paganism! NO ONE among the early Saints taught a limited atonement. Christ's provided a means to the WHOLE WORLD and is Not willing ANY should Perish! (1John2:2, 2Pet3:9) Not merely an 'elect' few. Those chosen were those who believed and obeyed. (1Pet1:2) It couldn't be more clear! It's heathen fatalism to assume otherwise. And Matt10:28, as Proof of this limitation! Outrageous! Christ is speaking to His Disciples in this Chapter, sending them out to Preach the Gospel and telling them to endure to the end. Talk about stretching it. These preachers will say almost anything to twist the Word. Why preach the Gospel in such a System. God will secure the Salvation of the elect no matter what anyone does or does not do. How arrogant it is to assume that He needs your help These preachers should just hang up their Bibles and ride off into the sunset and Stop spreading these lies. www.standingthegap.org

 

[GreenNnice]

Green i still encourage you to learn what grace means...also faith.

Heres how you sound.....Gods grace(His work) was cool and all...BUT "our" faith: now thats the big thing!

Do you realize that both faith and grace are both gifts of God. "you" had neither.
Untill you learn and understand more, id suggest teaching something you know.
Im sure there are plenty of things.

The Lord leads.

Doctrine is clear 'by grace, we are saved, through faith,' channel its true meaning however you want, but, the Lord has led me to believe it means exactly what I already said it means, and, our faith is FULL (abounding) of His wonderful grace unto our lives, and, yes, yes, of course, God's grace of giving us His Son on the cross is huge, eternally huge, brings us access to Him, but NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that 'grace' is a free gift of God, it is a given, therefore. Think about 'that' a bit, abider

For by GRACE, you have been SAVED THROUGH FAITH, , and, that not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God....

What does 'that' refer to, squirrelfriend ?

What does 'it' refer to? Your salvation or your grace? Which is it? It's not both, is it, that BOTH are free gifts being referred to? Nope, just one is 'it.'

It's rhetorical, isn't it, my teaching, here, the free gift is SALVATION. Grace has nothing to do with, in THIS sense, grace is 'mere,' it is simply what Christ GAVE us through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross.

But, as I said already, OH, NO, grace is NOT mere, it is more, actually, where sin abounds, grace abounds more

Ephesians 2: 8,9 : "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, that no one should boast."

 

[Abiding]

The Lord leads.

Doctrine is clear 'by grace, we are saved, through faith,' channel its true meaning however you want, but, the Lord has led me to believe it means exactly what I already said it means, and, our faith is FULL (abounding) of His wonderful grace unto our lives, and, yes, yes, of course, God's grace of giving us His Son on the cross is huge, eternally huge, brings us access to Him, but NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that 'grace' is a free gift of God, it is a given, therefore. Think about 'that' a bit, abider

For by GRACE, you have been SAVED THROUGH FAITH, , and, that not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God....

What does 'that' refer to, squirrelfriend ?

What does 'it' refer to? Your salvation or your grace? Which is it? It's not both, is it, that BOTH are free gifts being referred to? Nope, just one is 'it.'

It's rhetorical, isn't it, my teaching, here, the free gift is SALVATION. Grace has nothing to do with, in THIS sense, grace is 'mere,' it is simply what Christ GAVE us through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross.

But, as I said already, OH, NO, grace is NOT mere, it is more, actually, where sin abounds, grace abounds more

Ephesians 2: 8,9 : "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, that no one should boast."

Your point was???

 

[Abiding]

John McArthur is a false teacher, flee from Him, YOU are commanded to NOT follow man, but to follow God!

John McArthur​

Free from Guilt

Questions and Answers from JM :
How far can a 'Christian' go on sinning?
I recently read a book about Christians and sin that began with an unusual account. The author of this book was acquainted with a pastor who had been sent to prison for robbing fourteen banks to finance his alliances with prostitutes! The author was fully convinced the bank-robbing Lothario was a true Christian, and so he wrote a book to explore how such a thing could be possible.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think it is fair to raise the question of whether someone who regularly robs banks to pay for illicit sex is truly saved! That man's sin was secretly his lifestyle. There is every reason to believe that he would still be committing his crimes today if he had not been caught. Can we concede that this "so-called brother" is a genuine Christian, just because he was once an evangelical pastor?
True, we cannot judge the man's heart, but we must judge his behavior (1 Cor. 5:12). "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9-11). In those verses the apostle Paul was describing sins of chronic behavior, sins that color one's whole character. A predilection for such sins reflects an unregenerate heart. Paul reminded the Corinthians, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God" (v. 12, emphasis added).
But wait. Doesn't Scripture include examples of believers who committed gross sin? Didn't David commit murder and adultery and allow his sin to go unconfessed for at least a year? Wasn't Lot characterized by worldly compromise in the midst of heinous sin? Yes, those examples prove that genuine believers are capable of the worst imaginable sins. But David and Lot cannot be made to serve as examples of "carnal" believers, whose whole lifestyle and appetites are no different from unregenerate people.
David, for example, did repent thoroughly of his sin when Nathan confronted him, and he willingly accepted the Lord's discipline (2 Sam. 12:1-23). Psalm 51 is an expression of David's deep repentance at the end of this sordid episode in his life. The point, after all, is that this was merely one episode in David's life. He was certainly not predisposed to that kind of sin. In fact, 1 Kings 15:5 says, "David did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite" (emphasis added).
Lot is a different case. Not much is known about him from the Old Testament account, but what is recorded about him is disappointing. He was a pathetic example of compromise and disobedience. On the eve of Sodom's destruction, when he should have fled the city, "he hesitated" (Gen. 19:16). The angelic messengers had to seize his hand and put him outside the city. Near the end of his life, his two daughters got him drunk and committed incest with him (Gen. 19:30-38). Lot certainly did seem to have a proclivity for sins of compromise and worldliness.
Yet the inspired New Testament writer tells us Lot was "oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds)" (2 Pet. 2:8). He hated sin and desired righteousness. He had respect for holy angels-evidence of his fear of God (Gen. 19:1-14). He obeyed God by not looking back at Sodom when God's judgment rained down (cf. v. 26).
Lot was certainly not "carnal" in the sense that he lacked spiritual desires. Though he lived in a wicked place, he was not wicked himself. His soul was "tormented," vexed, grieved, tortured with severe pain at the sight of the evil all around him. Evidently his conscience did not become seared; he "felt his righteous soul tormented day after day" with the evil deeds of those around him. Though he lived in Sodom, he never became a Sodomite. Those who use him as an illustration of someone who is saved but utterly carnal miss the point of 2 Peter 2:8.
What is the lesson of Lot's life as Peter saw it? Verse 9 sums it up: "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."
In Lot's case, one means the Lord used to rescue him from temptation was severe chastisement. Lot lost his home; his wife was killed by divine judgment; and his own daughters disgraced and debased him. He paid a terrible price for his sin, being "tormented day after day." If Lot proves anything, it is that true believers cannot sin with impunity.
God always chastens and disciplines His children who sin. If they do not experience chastening, they are not truly His children, but spiritual bastards. Hebrews 12:7-8 explicitly states this: "What son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons." The specific purpose for which He disciplines us is "for our good, that we may share His holiness" (Heb. 12:10).
All of that flies in the face of the notion that millions of Christians live in a state of unbroken carnality. If these people are true children of God, why are they not constantly under His discipline?
As we have said, MacArthur is very slick. First he points out that Scripture emphatically says that certain types of behavior will keep you out of the Kingdom. (1Cor6:9-10, Gal5:19-21) AND that you can be known by the type of Fruit you are producing! (Although he's quick to point out that no one knows the heart) Then he raises the dilemma of 'Christians' in the Bible who fell into grievous sins, 'King David and Lot'. Now he has to suggest that Paul is only speaking of a 'Chronic' behavior of repeated offenses. Implying that a Real Christian can indeed commit Adultery and Murder and REMAIN in a State of Salvation, un-confessed, but under Divine Chastisement. But the Bible makes no such distinction, it simply says: 'If you DO these things, you will NOT inherit the Kingdom!' And John Clearly Points out that 'No Murder has Eternal life abiding in him', 1John3:15. Of course JM can't condone such sinful behavior, but at the same time his theology will not allow him to say that these people were in danger of losing their soul. He tried to discourage 'carnal' Christianity, but ends up supporting eternal security! WHY not rather use Joseph, Noah, Enoch as examples of Doing the Right thing if you want to promote obedience to the faith? JM's teaching only confuses the issue. How close is it to the horrible, blatant assumption that God will KILL a Sinning Saint and take him to heaven early for his grievous acts? Such men as David and Lot stand as DIRE warnings to the rest of us, NOT to Temp the Lord in like manner .....Remember Esau, Heb12:16-17, who went beyond Repentance, that it's possible to go too far.

Declared Righteous: What Actually Changes?
In its theological sense, justification is a forensic, or purely legal, term. It describes what God declares about the believer, not what He does to change the believer. In fact, justification effects no actual change whatsoever in the sinner's nature or character. Justification is a divine judicial edict. It changes our status only, but it carries ramifications that guarantee other changes will follow. Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification.
The Most effective method of explaining away the necessity of the Old man dying with Christ in Repentance, Rom6:4-6, is separating Justification from sanctification. The Bible DOES NOT disjoin them! (Acts26:18, 1Cor6:11) That way Real Obedience to Christ remains provisional. If God can Declare you Justified while you remain in a state of Sin (because He looks at Jesus instead of you) where is your motivation to Obey anything the Bible says? It's all optional! Christ stands as your Substitute and fulfills all your moral obligations to God. Certainly JM would insist that 'IF' you were really saved, you would Obey, but listen closely and the bottom line remains the same.
How Justification and Sanctification Differ
Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:
· Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
· Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
· Justification is an event, sanctification a process.
Again they disconnect the Death of the Old Man with the act of Justification. In other words....FIRST you Get Saved in your sins! THEN God makes you Righteous! It has Nothing to do with you Repenting or obeying from your heart, getting clear of your sins or becoming Pure by faith. So you come out of yours sins 'gradually'...by process. NOT as Paul said in Rom6:6, as a once and for all, not to be repeated event that frees you from the Power and Corruption of sin. God only declares a person Righteous who has Stopped sinning and has been Crucified with Christ, Gal2:16-21. It happens simultaneously, it is NOT two separate acts.

On Limited Atonement JM Says:
We have learned, the doctrine of absolute inability means that people will only be saved if God saves them, and therefore salvation is based upon the decree of God, the sovereign doctrine of election. No one could be saved unless God saved him and God saves those whom He chooses to save. You cannot expect the sinner on his own, no matter how he's emotionally prodded or psychologically prodded, no matter how he's threatened, no matter what you say to him, on his own you cannot expect him to quote/unquote decide for Christ. ...Number one, the atonement is limited. And by atonement I mean the sacrifice of Christ by which He paid the penalty for sin. The atonement is limited. Now let's look at this at just some obvious passages. Matthew 10...Matthew chapter 10 and I'm not going to wait for you, so you might want to write these down. Matthew 10:28, we've got to go, verse 28, gird up your loins, here we go, Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear...do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul, but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." That's also quoted in Luke 12 as we've been learning. There is a hell and God is going to send people there. That tells me the atonement is limited. There is a hell and God is going to send people there. I don't have any problem at all saying the atonement is limited. I don't have any problem at all saying how it's limited, it's limited to those who believe. And I have no problem saying and those who believe are those whom God grants faith and therefore the atonement is limited because God limited it. It is also true that when Scripture speaks of divine love, the focus is usually on God’s eternal love toward the elect. God’s love for mankind reaches fruition in the election of those whom He saves. And not every aspect of divine love is extended to all sinners without exception. Otherwise, all would be elect, and all would ultimately be saved. Now, as you come to chapter 4, Paul uses Abraham as an illustration of that, He is an illustration of justification by faith. He is an illustration that men and women come into a right relationship to God through believing in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. And we've been learning that justification then, or God imputing to us His righteousness, God putting His righteousness to our account must be seen in two ways. First of all, it is a forensic declaration, that is a statement of God relative to judicial reality. By that I mean God says, in fact, we are legally righteous. The legal payment has been paid, the wages of sin is death, Christ died the death. If we are granted the appropriation of that death through faith then legally we are right with God, Payment has been made. That is what forensic means. It is a legal declaration. And so, we are legally pronounced just.
Classic Augustinian Paganism! NO ONE among the early Saints taught a limited atonement. Christ's provided a means to the WHOLE WORLD and is Not willing ANY should Perish! (1John2:2, 2Pet3:9) Not merely an 'elect' few. Those chosen were those who believed and obeyed. (1Pet1:2) It couldn't be more clear! It's heathen fatalism to assume otherwise. And Matt10:28, as Proof of this limitation! Outrageous! Christ is speaking to His Disciples in this Chapter, sending them out to Preach the Gospel and telling them to endure to the end. Talk about stretching it. These preachers will say almost anything to twist the Word. Why preach the Gospel in such a System. God will secure the Salvation of the elect no matter what anyone does or does not do. How arrogant it is to assume that He needs your help These preachers should just hang up their Bibles and ride off into the sunset and Stop spreading these lies. www.standingthegap.org

Weak article to push your position. I just have one request.....where this guy says John said
"Un-confessed" Please provide source where John said that.

The rest is just a rant.

 

[marianna]

For by GRACE, you have been SAVED THROUGH FAITH, , and, that not of yourselves, it is a free gift of God....

What does 'that' refer to, squirrelfriend ?

What does 'it' refer to? Your salvation or your grace? Which is it? It's not both, is it, that BOTH are free gifts being referred to? Nope, just one is 'it.'

It's rhetorical, isn't it, my teaching, here, the free gift is SALVATION. Grace has nothing to do with, in THIS sense, grace is 'mere,' it is simply what Christ GAVE us through the death of His Son, Jesus, on the cross.

But, as I said already, OH, NO, grace is NOT mere, it is more, actually, where sin abounds, grace abounds more

Ephesians 2: 8,9 : "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, that no one should boast."

So you can boast about your good faith then.

 

[marianna]

It's time for people to drop their religious denominational spirits and traditions of men, and allow believers to walk in the full assurance Jesus provides. Quit constructing straw men that portray a false assertion about a very real thing.

I have noticed that Catholics have been removed from the forums for asserting the same ideas.
It's heartbreaking to see all these independent believers running ahead of the doctrines of Christ, the beauty and simplicity of the true Gospel which can only Glorify Christ (not man).

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit - Titus 3:5

those deeds we might supposedly have done in righteousness include a summoning up of faith from within a fallen sinful heart which is at enmity with God before He makes the Gracious change. Impossible.