A description of the New Testament church of Christ from scripture

[GWH]

I certainly do not have the power nor the authority to forbid speaking in tongues. However, I CAN use what God says in His word to make an argument either for or against it depending on what the scriptures say about it.

The Holy Spirit definitely taught that speaking in tongues was a temporary situation as opposed to faith, hope, and charity which are lasting. 1 Cor. 13. In verse 8, He says that miraculous prophesying and speaking in tongues and miraculous knowledge will cease, end, stop. Do you believe what the Spirit says here? If you will accept what the Holy Spirit says in verse 8, then all that remains is to figure out WHEN (??) they will stop. Understanding the PURPOSE of spiritual gifts in the first place is helpful in understanding WHEN and WHY they will stop. Verse 9 is the reason they were necessary to the early church. “ For we know IN PART. (Verse 9) Those early churches had no revelation from God written down for all to follow. They were getting revelation from God in small pieces over a long period of time. A little bit here and a little bit there as the Spirt revealed it to them. In parts and pieces. That’s why Paul ordered all of the various epistles to be read in all the churches. That’s how they got their information of what God wanted them to do.
Even their prophesying was “IN PART”, verse 9. None of it was complete. It was ongoing at that time. They needed these spiritual gifts to help them and guide them. The gifts served a purpose. Paul says over and over, they were for edifying ( building up) and encouraging the church—the saints. But he also says they were temporary. He said they WILL STOP. If you accept the words of the Spirit up to this point, then all you and I disagree on is “WHEN” they will end. Verse 10 tells us “WHEN” they will stop. “When that which is perfect is come, then all that which is in part will be done away.” Understanding that last sentence is crucial to understanding when spiritual gifts like prophesying, speaking in tongues, and miraculous knowledge will be done away. Most of the ones I have talked to about this believe that the word “perfect” in that verse means “Christ.” So they assume speaking in tongues will last until the 2nd coming of Christ. I don’t know if this is what you believe or not. I do not believe this because if that were true, then the Holy Spirit used the wrong pronouns. “Which” and “that” usually point out “things” not people. If the Spirit had been referring to the Christ, He woujd have needed to say, “He WHO is perfect” referring to a person, not “that which” is perfect. That which is perfect is referring to a “thing.” Notice also that the word “perfect” is NOT capitalized, which would be unusual if it was referring to the Son of God.

As much as possible, I believe we should let the Bible define itself. We have the word “perfect” used in Romans 12:2. “ …prove what is that good and acceptable and PERFECT WILL OF GOD.” And again in James 1:25, “ But he who looks into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY and continues in it…”. This explanation of what the word “perfect” means in 1 Cor. 13 is compatible with the contex of that chapter which was to explain that the revelation of God was not yet “perfect” or complete; they still knew the revelation of God only “in part.” But when they had ALL of God’s revelation complete, then spiritual gifts would no longer be necessary or needed and they would cease.

The 27 books of the cannon of scripture were completed in the 1st century with the final book of Revelation by the apostle John. The apostles passed on such gifts by the laying on of their hands on others. But nothing in the scriptures suggests that anyone having a spiritual gift could “pass it on” , other than an apostle. So when the last apostle died, and the last person who had a spiritual gift died, then the era of spiritual gifts ceased.

Your view is possible per Scripture, but I would like to suggest another view I consider to be an insight:

Gifts refers to abilities, and people still have those listed in Rom. 12:6-8 and 1Cor. 12:4-11 (minus miracles),
and these lists do not seem intended to be exclusive, so other abilities such as music and craftmanship may be included.

Even atheists have such abilities/blessings, although they do not glorify God (cf. 1Cor. 4:7, The Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25 and Matt. 5:45).

 

[PaulThomson]

I certainly do not have the power nor the authority to forbid speaking in tongues. However, I CAN use what God says in His word to make an argument either for or against it depending on what the scriptures say about it.

The Holy Spirit definitely taught that speaking in tongues was a temporary situation as opposed to faith, hope, and charity which are lasting. 1 Cor. 13. In verse 8, He says that miraculous prophesying and speaking in tongues and miraculous knowledge will cease, end, stop. Do you believe what the Spirit says here? If you will accept what the Holy Spirit says in verse 8, then all that remains is to figure out WHEN (??) they will stop. Understanding the PURPOSE of spiritual gifts in the first place is helpful in understanding WHEN and WHY they will stop. Verse 9 is the reason they were necessary to the early church. “ For we know IN PART. (Verse 9) Those early churches had no revelation from God written down for all to follow. They were getting revelation from God in small pieces over a long period of time. A little bit here and a little bit there as the Spirt revealed it to them. In parts and pieces. That’s why Paul ordered all of the various epistles to be read in all the churches. That’s how they got their information of what God wanted them to do.
Even their prophesying was “IN PART”, verse 9. None of it was complete. It was ongoing at that time. They needed these spiritual gifts to help them and guide them. The gifts served a purpose. Paul says over and over, they were for edifying ( building up) and encouraging the church—the saints. But he also says they were temporary. He said they WILL STOP. If you accept the words of the Spirit up to this point, then all you and I disagree on is “WHEN” they will end. Verse 10 tells us “WHEN” they will stop. “When that which is perfect is come, then all that which is in part will be done away.” Understanding that last sentence is crucial to understanding when spiritual gifts like prophesying, speaking in tongues, and miraculous knowledge will be done away. Most of the ones I have talked to about this believe that the word “perfect” in that verse means “Christ.” So they assume speaking in tongues will last until the 2nd coming of Christ. I don’t know if this is what you believe or not. I do not believe this because if that were true, then the Holy Spirit used the wrong pronouns. “Which” and “that” usually point out “things” not people. If the Spirit had been referring to the Christ, He woujd have needed to say, “He WHO is perfect” referring to a person, not “that which” is perfect. That which is perfect is referring to a “thing.” Notice also that the word “perfect” is NOT capitalized, which would be unusual if it was referring to the Son of God.

As much as possible, I believe we should let the Bible define itself. We have the word “perfect” used in Romans 12:2. “ …prove what is that good and acceptable and PERFECT WILL OF GOD.” And again in James 1:25, “ But he who looks into the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY and continues in it…”. This explanation of what the word “perfect” means in 1 Cor. 13 is compatible with the contex of that chapter which was to explain that the revelation of God was not yet “perfect” or complete; they still knew the revelation of God only “in part.” But when they had ALL of God’s revelation complete, then spiritual gifts would no longer be necessary or needed and they would cease.

The 27 books of the cannon of scripture were completed in the 1st century with the final book of Revelation by the apostle John. The apostles passed on such gifts by the laying on of their hands on others. But nothing in the scriptures suggests that anyone having a spiritual gift could “pass it on” , other than an apostle. So when the last apostle died, and the last person who had a spiritual gift died, then the era of spiritual gifts ceased.

Or, we are also told in Romans 8 that creation was subject to vanity, and is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God, the resurrection of the saints, because those resurrected saints under Christ will then set about in the millennial age beginning to restore the creation to wholeness, health, completion, perfection, which will finally be accomplished when the present world is dissolved and a new perfect heaven and earth are created in the beginning of the next age. That which is perfect could be the perfected new creation, when the universe is finally healed. In which case, that which is perfect is a thing, it is the restoration of all things, the perfcted healed creation. And all the gifts will continue until that goal is reached.

Act 3:19
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Act 3:20
“and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[fn]
Act 3:21
“whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things (the millennial kingdom age plus the following age of the new creation) , which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

 

[Beckworth]

I agree that the modern charismatic practice of everyone praying together in tongues is not biblical. But speaking in tongues under Holy Spirit inspiration is a gift the Holy Spirit does give to the church, and a gift of interpreting the tongue spoken is another gift. Since the gifts are under the control of the speaker, who can chose to stop himself from speaking, healing, helping etc. sometimes the person to whom the Holy Spirit has given the privilege of interpreting may not be bold enough to bring it forth. Hence, there may be no interpreter in the meeting, and if this is the case, after two or three have spoken in tongues without an interpreter, such tongues should no longer be audibly proclaimed. I also agree that someone could be faking a tongues message to appear spiritual. But since no one understands what they said, we cannot be sure they were faking it. Hence, it is appropriate to give the Holy Spirit three opportunities to give a tongue. The first and/or second ones may be uninterpreted because fake, but the second and or third may be genuine but uninterpreted. So, allowing two or three without interpretation seems to be the best approach. If an interpretation is brought, whether fake or genuine, it is equal to a prophecy, and is judged by the assembly as they would judge any other prophecy, whether it is in line or not with the character of God as revealed in Jesus and the scriptures.

But Paul definitely encouraged speaking in tongues in assemblies, but with at least one edifying interpretation within the first three. And he commanded that we should not forbid speaking in unknown tongues, which it sounds very much like you are doing. But I may be misunderstanding you.

If, as you say, the Holy Spirit “allowed” 3 people to speak in tongues with no interpreter, then there WAS NO “edifying interpretation” within the first 3 because there was NO INTERPRETER. Paul specifically says they are just “speaking into the air.” “How will it be known what is spoken?” Verse 9, Chpt. 14. That is not what Paul is saying—that is that 3 can speak without an interpreter. The gift of interpretation, just like all of the other gifts, was controlled by the person who had it. A person KNEW he had a gift BEFORE he used it. Like prophesying. A prophet KNEW he had a prophesy BEFORE he prophesied and he could “ wait” for his turn. A man knew if he could speak in tongues BEFORE he actually spoke, and he could “hold it,” if he had to. The same is true with one who could miraculously “ interpret”. He did not have to wait until 3 people spoke in a tongue before he knew he could interpret. Where did you get that idea? It was not out of his control and it was not suddenly thrust upon him as if he didn’t know he could interpret. So the miraculous gift of interpretation was NOT DEPENDENT on 2 or 3 people speaking before he knew whether or not he could interpret. They would have just asked if there was someone with the gift of interpretation present and if there was, that person would know it ahead of time. He did not need 3 people uselessly “speaking into the air” before he knew he could interpret.

Look at the verse again. Verse 27. Leave out the parenthetical expression ( set off by comas), and it says, “ if anyone speaks in a tongue let one interpret. The parenthetical expression “two or three in turn” addresses a different issue of “orderliness” as opposed to “confusion”. And if there is no interpreter, let “HIM”—-who is the “HIM” there in that verse? It is NOT a fourth person who wants to speak in a tongue, which is what you are saying. A pronoun ALWAYS re-names a preceding noun. The “Him” refers to the “anyone” wanting to speak in a tongue. The rule of interpretation applies to the ones talked about in this verse—not to an UNKNOWN FOURTH PERSON who does not even exist in this verse. The Holy Spirit tells those ( 2 or 3) wanting to speak to KEEP SILENT! “…let HIM KEEP SILENT!” Without making any “assumptions” about more people who are not even in the verse, I believe this is what this verse teaches.

 

[Beckworth]

Your view is possible per Scripture, but I would like to suggest another view I consider to be an insight:

Gifts refers to abilities, and people still have those listed in Rom. 12:6-8 and 1Cor. 12:4-11 (minus miracles),
and these lists do not seem intended to be exclusive, so other abilities such as music and craftmanship may be included.

Even atheists have such abilities/blessings, although they do not glorify God (cf. 1Cor. 4:7, The Parable of the Talents in Matt. 25 and Matt. 5:45).

Yes, we all have abilities. But what is being discussed here are “MIRACULOUS” gifts. Certainly not all had those, even in the first century. And, we were discussing whether those “MIRACULOUS” gifts are still in existence today or have they already “ceased” as Paul predicts they will in 1 Cor. 13?

Or, we are also told in Romans 8 that creation was subject to vanity, and is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God, the resurrection of the saints, because those resurrected saints under Christ will then set about in the millennial age beginning to restore the creation to wholeness, health, completion, perfection, which will finally be accomplished when the present world is dissolved and a new perfect heaven and earth are created in the beginning of the next age. That which is perfect could be the perfected new creation, when the universe is finally healed. In which case, that which is perfect is a thing, it is the restoration of all things, the perfcted healed creation. And all the gifts will continue until that goal is reached.

Act 3:19
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Act 3:20
“and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[fn]
Act 3:21
“whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things (the millennial kingdom age plus the following age of the new creation) , which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

You are opening a whole different can of worms here. A different subject altogether.

 

[Beckworth]

Or, we are also told in Romans 8 that creation was subject to vanity, and is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God, the resurrection of the saints, because those resurrected saints under Christ will then set about in the millennial age beginning to restore the creation to wholeness, health, completion, perfection, which will finally be accomplished when the present world is dissolved and a new perfect heaven and earth are created in the beginning of the next age. That which is perfect could be the perfected new creation, when the universe is finally healed. In which case, that which is perfect is a thing, it is the restoration of all things, the perfcted healed creation. And all the gifts will continue until that goal is reached.

Act 3:19
“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Act 3:20
“and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[fn]
Act 3:21
“whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things (the millennial kingdom age plus the following age of the new creation) , which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

The problem with this answer is that it does not fit the “contex” of 1 Cor. 13:9. What do spiritual gifts have to do with your theory about a “millennial kingdom? ( which by the way I do not agree with; but that’s another subject for another time.) I guess we could come up with all kinds of possibilities about what is “ perfect”, but whatever is suggested shouid “fit” the context of what Paul is talking about in verses 8 and 9.

 

[GWH]

Yes, we all have abilities. But what is being discussed here are “MIRACULOUS” gifts. Certainly not all had those, even in the first century. And, we were discussing whether those “MIRACULOUS” gifts are still in existence today or have they already “ceased” as Paul predicts they will in 1 Cor. 13?

You are opening a whole different can of worms here. A different subject altogether.

Yes, I was, because I am tired of discussing/focusing on the physical miracle gifts.
Hasn't everything that can be said about them been said yet?

 

[Dino246]

5) Giving - Paul commaned all of the churches to “lay by as they have been prospered, on the first day of the week.” He called this the “collection for the saints.”

This was specifically for the believers in Jersualem. Context matters. Ignoring it is tantamount to taking away from Scripture.

1 Cor. 14 gives us more information about the churches in the New Testament. It has to do with spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit which were necessary in the early church because they had no written Bible to guide them as we do.

You start with the warning from Revelation 22 not to add to Scripture, then you add to Scripture. The text does not say that the "gifts of the Holy Spirit which were necessary in the early church because they had no written Bible to guide them".

The Holy Spirit says in verse 34 that women in the church assembly were to “KEEP SILENT”. “For they are NOT PERMITTED to speak.” Verse 35- “It is SHAMEFUL for women to speak in the church.” Those are not my words. That is not my command. That is what God says. That is what the Holy Spirit teaches. There are many “loopholes” used to try to get around these verses, but Paul says, in the VERY NEXT VERSE, “…the things that I write to you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.” And in chapter 4:17 - “…who will remind you of my ways in Christ, AS I TEACH EVERYWHERE IN EVERY CHURCH.” This was not instruction just for the church at Corinth. This letter was to be read in all the churches.

Again, context matters, but so does logic.

Women were specifically permitted to speak (pray aloud) in chapter 11. It is illogical that three chapters later, they are permanently silenced (note: not "quiet" as in low volume, but "silent" as in no sound at all). They would not be permitted to sing (which violates the admonitions elsewhere to "speak to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs"), to greet each other, even to provide their own names. Under your rigid interpretation, a widow or single woman would be a ghost in the congregation.

Further, verse 34 says, "they must be in submission, as the Law says". The problem is that the Law does not say that... anywhere.

Finally, Paul's words in verse 36 through the previous statements into shadow, as he says, "Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" These words don't make sense... unless Paul did not write the previous two verses. If we consider that he was quoting a letter sent to him, it becomes crystal-clear that he is rebuking the men who want women silent, and is not himself requiring their silence.

You decry denominationalism, but persist in the very errors that caused it.

 

[NightTwister]

There still is a church of Christ just like the one in the New Testament existing today. One that just sings, prays, preaches God’s word and takes the Lord’s supper and gives on the first day of the week. Whose women keep silent in the assembly. Investigate the church of Christ—both in the Bible and the ones existing today.

Might this church be the church of Christ that came out of the Stone-Campbell movement?

 

[Beckworth]

Might this church be the church of Christ that came out of the Stone-Campbell movement?

No. This is the church of Christ that was started in A.D. 33 on the day of Pentecost.

 

[NightTwister]

No. This is the church of Christ that was started in A.D. 33 on the day of Pentecost.

How might I find that church today?

 

[Beckworth]

How might I find that church today?

Look for the identifying marks of the 1st century church in the New Testament. Start with one wearing the right name, but understand that the name alone does not
Mean it is the 1st century church of Christ. It must fit the New Testament pattern in worship, organization, work, and doctrine.

The church that Christ built was very simple, really. It’s work was for the. Edification and benevolence of the saints, and evangelism of the world. It was organized with Christ as the only head, with elders, also called pastors, bishops, and shepherds, and deacons, preachers were also called ministers of the gospel, and saints, some of whom were teachers. They wore no religious titles, per Jesus’s teaching in Matt. 23:9. Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man. Their public church assemblies had singing but without mechanical Instruments of music.

I don’t know if you are sincerely asking or not, but those are some of the identifying characteristics of the New Testament church in the Bible. And there are still churches like that. In existence today.

 

[NightTwister]

Look for the identifying marks of the 1st century church in the New Testament. Start with one wearing the right name, but understand that the name alone does not
Mean it is the 1st century church of Christ. It must fit the New Testament pattern in worship, organization, work, and doctrine.

The church that Christ built was very simple, really. It’s work was for the. Edification and benevolence of the saints, and evangelism of the world. It was organized with Christ as the only head, with elders, also called pastors, bishops, and shepherds, and deacons, preachers were also called ministers of the gospel, and saints, some of whom were teachers. They wore no religious titles, per Jesus’s teaching in Matt. 23:9. Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man. Their public church assemblies had singing but without mechanical Instruments of music.

I don’t know if you are sincerely asking or not, but those are some of the identifying characteristics of the New Testament church in the Bible. And there are still churches like that. In existence today.

So, a church with "church of Christ" on the sign?

 

[PaulThomson]

You are opening a whole different can of worms here. A different subject altogether.

No, it is not a different subject. It is offering an alternative meaning from your opinion for “that which is perfect”. You claim that Holy Spirit's gifts have ceased because that which is perfect has come, and that that which is perfect is the completed canon of scripture. But you have no proof that Paul is referring to the completed canon of scripture, apart from that being a handy claim to justify your prejudice against the gifts being still active today.

So, what is your reason for dismissing the replacement of the creation corrupted by humanity by the restored creation ruled over by restored humanity? Will the Holy Spirit's ministry gifts be needed any more in that new creation? Christians still get sick today, so why would a ministry gift of healing be irrelevant and redundant now?

 

[PaulThomson]

Look for the identifying marks of the 1st century church in the New Testament. Start with one wearing the right name, but understand that the name alone does not
Mean it is the 1st century church of Christ. It must fit the New Testament pattern in worship, organization, work, and doctrine.

The church that Christ built was very simple, really. It’s work was for the. Edification and benevolence of the saints, and evangelism of the world. It was organized with Christ as the only head, with elders, also called pastors, bishops, and shepherds, and deacons, preachers were also called ministers of the gospel, and saints, some of whom were teachers. They wore no religious titles, per Jesus’s teaching in Matt. 23:9. Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man. Their public church assemblies had singing but without mechanical Instruments of music.

I don’t know if you are sincerely asking or not, but those are some of the identifying characteristics of the New Testament church in the Bible. And there are still churches like that. In existence today.

One of the identifying marks of the first century church was preaching not just with words, but with demonstrations of power through the ministry gifts. It sounds like your church lacks that marker.

1Co 2:4
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Beckworth]

No, it is not a different subject. It is offering an alternative meaning from your opinion for “that which is perfect”. You claim that Holy Spirit's gifts have ceased because that which is perfect has come, and that that which is perfect is the completed canon of scripture. But you have no proof that Paul is referring to the completed canon of scripture, apart from that being a handy claim to justify your prejudice against the gifts being still active today.

So, what is your reason for dismissing the replacement of the creation corrupted by humanity by the restored creation ruled over by restored humanity? Will the Holy Spirit's ministry gifts be needed any more in that new creation? Christians still get sick today, so why would a ministry gift of healing be irrelevant and redundant now?

As I have already said, your theory about the “creation” does not fit the context. How does verse 9 fit with that And how does the “in part” fit in with your theory? Anyone can come up with lots of “possibilities” but, again, I believe the Bible defines the word “perfect” for us. You are free to dis-agree, but I believe Romans 12:2 and James 1:25 give us the answer.

 

[PaulThomson]

As I have already said, your theory about the “creation” does not fit the context. How does verse 9 fit with that And how does the “in part” fit in with your theory? Anyone can come up with lots of “possibilities” but, again, I believe the Bible defines the word “perfect” for us. You are free to dis-agree, but I believe Romans 12:2 and James 1:25 give us the answer.

Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jas 3:2
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man ,and able also to bridle the whole body.

Rom 8:21
Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rev. ch 21-ch 22 show something perfect having come: the new creation.

Either of us could be right. However, the church still has to hear from God and needs healing, and to serve in the powe ofmthe Holy Spirt, and evangelists, pastors/teachers, so still needs the ministry of the Holy Spirit gifts So, any theology that rejects the Holy Spirit’s gifts in the church seems sub-optimal. .

1Co 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

The church still needs to be edified. That’s what the Holy Spirit’s gifts are for. Your church of Christ soinds Sardis-like.
Rev 3:1
¶
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: 'The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.

Rev. 3:1 "'I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead.
seems to be

 

[NightTwister]

Look for the identifying marks of the 1st century church in the New Testament. Start with one wearing the right name, but understand that the name alone does not
Mean it is the 1st century church of Christ. It must fit the New Testament pattern in worship, organization, work, and doctrine.

The church that Christ built was very simple, really. It’s work was for the. Edification and benevolence of the saints, and evangelism of the world. It was organized with Christ as the only head, with elders, also called pastors, bishops, and shepherds, and deacons, preachers were also called ministers of the gospel, and saints, some of whom were teachers. They wore no religious titles, per Jesus’s teaching in Matt. 23:9. Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man. Their public church assemblies had singing but without mechanical Instruments of music.

I don’t know if you are sincerely asking or not, but those are some of the identifying characteristics of the New Testament church in the Bible. And there are still churches like that. In existence today.

I know this church. I grew up in and was baptized in this church. All churches originate in 33 A.D. This church you speak of came out of the Stone-Campbell Restoration movement in the early 19th century.

 

[GWH]

Look for the identifying marks of the 1st century church in the New Testament. Start with one wearing the right name, but understand that the name alone does not
Mean it is the 1st century church of Christ. It must fit the New Testament pattern in worship, organization, work, and doctrine.

The church that Christ built was very simple, really. It’s work was for the. Edification and benevolence of the saints, and evangelism of the world. It was organized with Christ as the only head, with elders, also called pastors, bishops, and shepherds, and deacons, preachers were also called ministers of the gospel, and saints, some of whom were teachers. They wore no religious titles, per Jesus’s teaching in Matt. 23:9. Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man. Their public church assemblies had singing but without mechanical Instruments of music.

I don’t know if you are sincerely asking or not, but those are some of the identifying characteristics of the New Testament church in the Bible. And there are still churches like that. In existence today.

I like the parameters for the most part, but "Their women did not speak in public assemblies and did not usurp authority over a man" does not discern that in the church of Christ authority means servanthood (Matt. 20:25-28) and mutual submission (Eph. 5:21, 1Cor. 11:11-12). The restriction against women speaking (1Cor. 14:34) was probably due to cultural concerns rather than meant as an eternal moral command (Gal. 3:28, 1Cor. 7:12,21,25,35&39-40, 8:9, 9:19-23, 10:31-33, 11:13-16). Also, there is no NT proscription of mechanical musical instruments. Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 merely indicate that the message in the lyrics is more important than the musical accompaniment.

 

[WayneNSO]

No, it is not a different subject. It is offering an alternative meaning from your opinion for “that which is perfect”. You claim that Holy Spirit's gifts have ceased because that which is perfect has come, and that that which is perfect is the completed canon of scripture. But you have no proof that Paul is referring to the completed canon of scripture, apart from that being a handy claim to justify your prejudice against the gifts being still active today.

So, what is your reason for dismissing the replacement of the creation corrupted by humanity by the restored creation ruled over by restored humanity? Will the Holy Spirit's ministry gifts be needed any more in that new creation? Christians still get sick today, so why would a ministry gift of healing be irrelevant and redundant now?

Logic dictates that the sign gifts ceased with the completion of the cannon.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Notice all cease and vanish except love or charity.

His point ends by saying:

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Those that believe in ongoing revelation, "A word from the Lord came to me" etc, say that the "perfect" of verse 10 refers to the second coming of Jesus Christ, so the sign gifts still happen today. But by comparing verse 13 with verse 8 we see that faith and hope were to continue for a time after the spiritual gifts were abolished.

Faith looks forward to the fulfillment of something not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Likewise, hope is waiting with expectation for something, hope that is seen is not hope. For who still hopes for what they already see and have?

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

If the "perfect" of verse 10 means the gifts end at the second coming of Jesus Christ, then how can faith and hope continue for a time after the sign gifts cease? Because what is hoped for has been realised. So all the sign gifts have to be ended before the second coming.

Verse 13 ends with, "but the greatest of these is charity."
In verse 8 it says "Charity never faileth".

After the second coming of Jesus Christ, when all else has ceased, charity or brotherly love remains, it never ceases.


Paul gives us two illustrations to explain the main point. The first illustration is in verse 11:

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This equates attaining the fullness of knowledge with becoming a mature man., Ephesians 4:13-15 teaches the same thing,

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In verse 12, Paul gives us his second illustration to explain the main point.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Mirrors back then were polished metal, so you would see your reflection but it would not be a true or clear reflection, Paul contrasts this with seeing a person face to face, seeing someone clearly.

The point is that the gifts are for a time when Christians see darkly and knew in part, but when we have the completed Word of God, Christians will see clearly and know fully.

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

If the Bible is not complete then what the Apostles did was not good enough for us today, and more revelation is needed. This is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church teaches, they elect successors to the Apostles, successors to the office of Peter, so they can claim they are speaking for God by divine revelation, and their teaching evolves over the centuries. They believe the gifts have not ceased but are ongoing. The modern day Charismatic movement does the same thing, adding divine revelation to what God has said.

 

[WayneNSO]

I noticed a difference in the early church and the ones we have now - Paul when staying at a church for a while to preach or teach always found employment so he was not a burden financially on the church.

Today preaching and teaching are paid employment within the church.

I am not saying it is a bad thing to do this today, but we can certainly learn from Pauls example, and there are a lot of fat cats in church employment today