A NON-CHARISMATIC UNDERSTANDING OF TONGUES
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Let us benefit from the hard work of VCO'S study, and heed the wisdom that come from the experience of others that can sound like horror stories
Let's not cause anyone to puke or vomit
The lesson is this: If you don't know what you are doing, don't do it. God rather wisdom over ignorance
What I am trying to do is get people back to where they are WILLING and hopefully ABLE to:
1 John 4:1 (ESV)
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Every since the modern day tongues movement began, they have been unwilling to test the spirits behind it; and just ASSUME everything done in the Charismatic Church has to be of the Holy Spirit, and it is not. One more warning, the deceivers are here, and so are the false spirits.
Matthew 24:23-25 (HCSB)
23 “If anyone tells you then, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Over here!’ do not believe it!
24 False messiahs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Take note: I have told you in advance.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (ESV)
13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
SEE IT, they will be in our churches, if we ignore the threat?
We all need to develop ways to Test the SPIRITS, and stricter rules.
That electronic devise I meaning earlier has potential:
That device newesr Langogo device has currently 92 different languages.
That could potentially prove the if it was a language or not. And if the Translator could be test whether or not the Transtator can translate the foreign language, or NOT.
https://www.amazon.com/Langogo-Lang...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=S1CG49DVV2WTFY1N0T0Y
What's wrong with the bible lying in your lap? All the mysteries of God are made plain in His word.
The word of God is Spirit and life. Jesus is the Word made flesh and dwelt among us.
1 Cor 13: 8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Face to face no longer through the glass darkly.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The majority of languages that ‘tongues’ purportedly come out as are fairly obscure; it’s rarely a mainstream language like German, French, etc.
Trying to use a machine translator would not really work as likely it would not detect any particular language.
I have transcribed several examples of tongues-speech and tried using a few machine translators (i.e. Google Translate). Many times, it will pick up on a word or two that just happens to mean something in some language and it assumes the entire paragraph is in that language – needless to say, the ‘translation’ doesn’t quite work and makes little sense.
Modern tongues-speech is non-cognitive non-language utterance; however, even if you start uttering strings of syllables, one or two of those strings (what are perceived by tongues-speakers as ‘words’) is bound to mean something in some language somewhere. There are just too many languages and variables for that not to happen. In fact, you don’t even have to speak in tongues for that to happen. If you just utter a bunch of nonsensical ‘words’; a few of those may actually mean something in some language.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I would question the non-cognitive, unless one means there is "automaticity" as reported in one study.
Non-cognitive in the sense that one is not consciously making an effort to produce it. Also, that there are no cognitive processes involved in the sense that there are cognitive processes involved in producing real language.
So, yes, in a broad sense, it's automatically produced with no apparent cognitive effort. Similar to babbling; however, babbling does not attempt to produce something that resembles language. Tongues does.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Interesting, now I see babbling as in a baby the process whereby they practice speech sounds and is communicative on a basic level, yet they have not yet developed a full understanding of language and communication but if all things are typically developing they will get there.
This is where I see "tongues" fails since adults do know what communication is yet they side step that knowledge and insist that babbling is communicative??
Yes, in an infant, babbling is playing with sounds and developing the cognition that will eventually lead to language. Occasionally, as any parent will tell you, sometimes said infant will repeat an entire string of words (such as "hello there", or "how are you today") as clear as day (it's a bit freaky actually - my own kids have done that). They are learning the process of language.
Well..., I think it's also because tongues-speakers perceive what they are producing as a real language and as a result it's not viewed as "babble" - it actually isn't for the reason in my previous post; tongues produces a facade of language, babbling can be that too, but typically not.
Now you are making things up, by misinterpreting one or two verses.
NO MAN WHOM GOD EVER SPOKE TO RECEIVED ANYTHING BUT A MESSAGE IN AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE.
NO NEED TO CONTINUE THIS. I will believe what the BIBLE actually says, and you are free to believe what ever you want.
Matthew 6:5-10 (NJB)
5 ‘And when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them. In truth I tell you, they have had their reward.
6 But when you pray, go to your private room, shut yourself in, and so pray to your Father who is in that secret place, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you.
7 ‘In your prayers do not babble [battalogeo] as the gentiles do, for they think that by using many words they will make themselves heard.
8 Do not be like them; your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 So you should pray like this:. Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy,
10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
HERE WE ARE TO MODEL OUR PRAYERS IN A KNOWN EARTHLY LANGUAGE, AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS WE ASK OF HIM.
ANYTHING LESS IS A DELIBERATE SIN OF WHAT HE TOLD US TO DO WHEN WE PRAY.
So PAUL did not contradict what Jesus said, YOU misinterpreted it.
It was a Apostolic Miracle, and therefore ONLY WHEN THE APOSTLES DID IT, and Some in Corinth had seen the Risen Lord, so they would have the right to call themselves apostles, LITTLE a. Modern day tongues is nothing more than an IMITATION of the REAL TONGUES, SO SEE MY POST ABOVE.
Mark 16:20 (NJB)
20 while they, going out, preached everywhere, the Lord working [HE did the tongues through them] with them and confirming the word by the signs that accompanied it.
I had no intention to debate this subject. Now the LORD has put it on my heart, to ONCE AGAIN, debate those who have been deceived. He will tell me when the time comes to STOP. See my above two posts.
CORRECT, you got it right. And a little more than that, because I believe the LORD knew what was coming, and HE specifically mention BATTALOGEO in the Greek, because of the CONFUSION in Corinth and today.
Matthew 6:5-10 (NIV)
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9 "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
THAT IS A MODEL FOR ALL PRAYER, and How we are to form it, in our own native LANGUAGE, therefore it is sin NOT TO DO IT.
That is my intention, I am sure that all modern day tongues is NOTHING MORE THAN a bunch of nonsensical words, and sooner of later, they will realize it was all fake. When a Electronic Word Translator comes up with NOTHING; that means the so-called Interpreter, has fallen for a counterfeit of the so-called Gift of Interpretation; because it CEASED when TONGUES CEASED.
From VCO'S description of tongue method, if je-sus is repeated on a microphone toward a device that can fast forward the audio till the result of this fast forwarding sounds squeaky
As a comparison, the counterfeits have probably demoted themselves to become a mere sound recorder with a working speaker, that consume far too much organic energy than plastic with copper, magnet, possible some silicon, and aluminum. Man, in the image of God, is clearly lost here.
As a comparison, the counterfeits have probably demoted themselves to become a mere sound recorder with a working speaker, that consume far too much organic energy than plastic with copper, magnet, possible some silicon, and aluminum. Man, in the image of God, is clearly lost here.
I explained several times on this thread that we requested you post the information to share what your research.
Look at the Long list of BOOKS and Tapes that I studied, on the last page. You can go to the public Library and research all those books yourself, if you want to. The one book that will be hard to find was a very old book, send me a private message, and if you cannot find it, I will provide you where I found it, and it is where I got a lot of the info on the Worship of Apollo and the other Greek gods; and it's name is: “The Mystery Religions” book by Samuel Angus.
I certainly figure it is a BIG WASTE of my time to DO THE ENTIRE STUDY, YET AGAIN, when I consider it to be LEAST of the things that the Holy Spirit can do for us to edify the Body of Believers.
1 Corinthians 10:14-15 (ASV)
14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
23 All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
24 Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's.
1 Corinthians 14:4 (ASV)
4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
PAUL CLEARLY FORBID EDIFYING SELF IN 1 Cor. 10:14-15, therefore in 1 Cor. 14:4 he gave us a reason NOT TO SPEAK in tongues.
And here is another reason:
1 Corinthians 12:1-3 (ASV)
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led.
3 Wherefore I make known unto you, that no man speaking in the Spirit of God saith, Jesus is anathema; and no man can say, Jesus is Lord, but in the Holy Spirit.