Advice Needed: Should I get involved?

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Ok....
Hear me out before you go too far.

I understand that this is a church group....you would very much appreciate it if everyone behaved better.
TOTALLY get that...wish for it myself on more occasions than we all would like.

And where YOU see Bill's bad behavior and a few other women (who ought to know better) the one person you know the least about, Sarah, you see as a victim of Bill's. And that may not be as accurate as you think it is.

Are some guys kads? Of course. But you have neglected the thought that for all of Bill's outgoing and fun loving personality he also has really poor boundaries....kinda a schlub for knowing all appropriate social skills. And Sarah, who seems to "unintentionally" hide from perceptive people might just be running a number on ol Bill here that you, nor Bill, are not entirely cognizant of.

In church and other more morally/morality focused social groups they attract a specific type of women. Where there are many who come for the relationships....they also come for the control.
It's a thing that has become more common as narcissists have become more of a majority in our society.

Most guys are really simple creatures...feed them, give them attention, stroke their ego, promise a vision of utopia and they are loyal lapdogs in white shining armor on a valiant steed. And the guys at Seminary have to REALLY watch out for these manipulative creatures. More than one super successful pastor has held a huge secret of how horrible a person his wife truly is. (Just saying)

A truly "biblical" woman us supposedly described in Proverbs 31....I tend to see that as a description of the Bride of Christ myself....but whatever....she may be quiet, soft spoken and all that.....but she also can drive a tent peg through a bad guy's head after smiling at him and feeding him. Vindictiveness is not exactly one of the more well known Spiritual gifts....

Somehow....this Sarah is not meeting Bill's expectations and needs. It may be that you are right and no one woman will ever fulfill Bill's wants and needs....in which case Bill, like so many, has an issue with loving his neighbor. (As well as being a bit of a schlub)

I get it....you dont want to see any of this mess....you want better out of these people....and your heart breaks because you actually care about your church family.

Trouble is that the more you know, the more faith you have, the more omniscient you understand God to be as well as Sovereign and all that....the more fatalistic you become.
Unpleasant at best.
I really appreciate this take. While I tried to simplify my post, it's actually a lot more complex. I absolutely agree with you that Sara is not meeting needs. What I'm addressing in the letter is Bills past pain, is creating a behavior that is using women to validate himself. Essentially, make himself feel better/wanted/desired/etc. So I don't think he's doing it to be manipulative or purposefully trying to hurt anyone, but there are issues on Sara's end that I'm aware of that speak volumes about where she is emotionally in all this. For example, she left for 6 weeks back home and almost didn't come back. She refuses to introduce him to her parents when her mother was visiting also... So while that doesn't excuse Bills behavior, I can see how this is just a bad situation all around. So that's why I'm just trying to figure out how to do the right thing while not making the situation any worse.

And according to my x, he also saw Bills behavior and mentioned it to me. So at least I know that my perception about the whole thing, isn't just me. But my x is always of the opinion that its "none of his business", so he wouldn't get involved even if a gun was pointed to his head. But my x's opinion is since I'm friends with Bill, that's where my loyalties should lie and if I say anything, it should be to Bill first.
 
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I really appreciate this take. While I tried to simplify my post, it's actually a lot more complex. I absolutely agree with you that Sara is not meeting needs. What I'm addressing in the letter is Bills past pain, is creating a behavior that is using women to validate himself. Essentially, make himself feel better/wanted/desired/etc. So I don't think he's doing it to be manipulative or purposefully trying to hurt anyone, but there are issues on Sara's end that I'm aware of that speak volumes about where she is emotionally in all this. For example, she left for 6 weeks back home and almost didn't come back. She refuses to introduce him to her parents when her mother was visiting also... So while that doesn't excuse Bills behavior, I can see how this is just a bad situation all around. So that's why I'm just trying to figure out how to do the right thing while not making the situation any worse.

And according to my x, he also saw Bills behavior and mentioned it to me. So at least I know that my perception about the whole thing, isn't just me. But my x is always of the opinion that its "none of his business", so he wouldn't get involved even if a gun was pointed to his head. But my x's opinion is since I'm friends with Bill, that's where my loyalties should lie and if I say anything, it should be to Bill first.

If you come at it in the fashion that you don't see the relationship between them actually working out as evidenced by his behavior and that he is not getting his needs met by her....
You got a decent chance at not having this all blow up in your face. (Killing messengers is a time honored tradition we still perform today)
You gotta remember...you too are single but NOT wanting to date Bill either....even though another young lady in your group would definitely want to date ol Bill. (Mentioning her obvious desires is not a bad idea while telling Bill what you as a friend see)

Sarah has too many issues....just does. She may be willing or even wanting a guy like Bill. But she doesn't really value him sufficiently to parade him about as "MINE....all you hussies back OFF".

And guys absolutely need to be paraded about as belonging to her....nevermind the rolling eyes and deep sighs about it all. We men really don't mean a bit of it. It's just our pathetic male egoes talking at that moment because honestly we are secretly thrilled to be treated as such.

Good guys have White Knight Syndrome. Nevermind the rust spots in our Armour, the chinks in our bent swords, and our sway backed nags we ride (also beer bellies) we ride off to rescue thou fair maidens from the evil dragons and Mr Snidely who ties them to railroad tracks.
We are really simple creatures in so MANY ways.
Tell him she is a nutcase wacko and will drive him nuts by never being satisfied....he'll get that. There's enough "Red Pill" blogs and videos to get it through his head if he watches those. Or tell him she is outside his accepted parameters on the hot/crazy matrix.

Lots of ways to say it....just be careful being the messenger.
 
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If you come at it in the fashion that you don't see the relationship between them actually working out as evidenced by his behavior and that he is not getting his needs met by her....
You got a decent chance at not having this all blow up in your face. (Killing messengers is a time honored tradition we still perform today)
You gotta remember...you too are single but NOT wanting to date Bill either....even though another young lady in your group would definitely want to date ol Bill. (Mentioning her obvious desires is not a bad idea while telling Bill what you as a friend see)

Sarah has too many issues....just does. She may be willing or even wanting a guy like Bill. But she doesn't really value him sufficiently to parade him about as "MINE....all you hussies back OFF".

And guys absolutely need to be paraded about as belonging to her....nevermind the rolling eyes and deep sighs about it all. We men really don't mean a bit of it. It's just our pathetic male egoes talking at that moment because honestly we are secretly thrilled to be treated as such.

Good guys have White Knight Syndrome. Nevermind the rust spots in our Armour, the chinks in our bent swords, and our sway backed nags we ride (also beer bellies) we ride off to rescue thou fair maidens from the evil dragons and Mr Snidely who ties them to railroad tracks.
We are really simple creatures in so MANY ways.
Tell him she is a nutcase wacko and will drive him nuts by never being satisfied....he'll get that. There's enough "Red Pill" blogs and videos to get it through his head if he watches those. Or tell him she is outside his accepted parameters on the hot/crazy matrix.

Lots of ways to say it....just be careful being the messenger.
Love it! And I agree with you. I kind of am pointing out the whole, paraded about in a way, just ... more of a flowery way. lol Actually, as a guy... I'd love your take on part of my letter and anyone else who wants to share their opinion. If you were given this, how would you take it?

---- Pasting only part of it ---- (Names obviously changed)
Sara should be your lily among the thorns, just as you should be her apple tree among the forest. That doesn’t mean you will never recognize another woman as attractive. It means the woman you choose should hold a place in your heart and attention that no other woman competes with.

But honestly, this letter isn’t really about Sara in particular. Where you emotionally stand with her is between the two of you. What concerns me is what may be underneath this pattern.

I know the hunger to feel seen. I know what it feels like to want someone’s glance to tell you that you matter in a room full of people. I know the pull of feeling attractive, wanted, noticed, or desired. Believe me, I understand that more than I wish I did.

But you do not need women to remind you what you are worth.

You do not need another glance, another flirtation, or another moment of attention to prove that you are valuable.

The woman who truly sees you is going to see so much more than that anyway. She is going to see your protectiveness. She is going to notice the way you light up when you care about someone. She is going to hear the wisdom in you when you talk about Scripture. She is going to encourage that fire you have for the Lord. She is going to see the parts of you that random attention can never touch.

And I think that is what is worth waiting for.

Don’t settle for shallow moments of validation when what I think you really want is to be deeply known and deeply treasured by one woman who sees you clearly and chooses you fully.

You are smart.

You are handsome.

You are kind.

You are caring.

You are wise.

And you are one of a kind. There is none like you because God made you who you are.

You don’t need a room full of women to validate what God has already made you. Know who you are before God, and when the woman you’ve chosen sees in you what God already sees, let that be enough.
 
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I understand that YOU are a woman and trying to relate this to a guy.....

and men do not clearly understand the flowery. Kinda lost on us. We get the brutal blunt points....maybe. (emotional schlub you are working with here).

Gotta remember the audience!
Where you want to softpedal the ugly truth by flowery language and beautiful imagery....this is a guy and not a girl you are working with here. "She's not that into you" or "She's embarrassed to be your girlfriend " is a little too harsh. (By contrast)

" its not you its me" is a personal favorite of mine that I think a derivation of works wonders in this situation "You aren't your best self while dating her" or "She's got too much on her plate to be your girlfriend, however much she may want to, and you by consequence, are acting like the schmuck that you really are not because she is not committed to your relationship."

Bowling ball blunt....he is a schlub emotionally....soft peddled but blunt truth or else he will get confused and not understand the key elements. He is wounded....so you have to backhand the compliments in as if they were obvious facts everyone already is cognizant of.

And if I was you I would really mention that other young lady that you said he has had interactions with....The one looking at him as if he hung the moon.

I got too many Yiddish words in my vocabulary today...dunno why....maybe Fiddler on the roof....
 
I understand that YOU are a woman and trying to relate this to a guy.....

and men do not clearly understand the flowery. Kinda lost on us. We get the brutal blunt points....maybe. (emotional schlub you are working with here).

Gotta remember the audience!
Where you want to softpedal the ugly truth by flowery language and beautiful imagery....this is a guy and not a girl you are working with here. "She's not that into you" or "She's embarrassed to be your girlfriend " is a little too harsh. (By contrast)

" its not you its me" is a personal favorite of mine that I think a derivation of works wonders in this situation "You aren't your best self while dating her" or "She's got too much on her plate to be your girlfriend, however much she may want to, and you by consequence, are acting like the schmuck that you really are not because she is not committed to your relationship."

Bowling ball blunt....he is a schlub emotionally....soft peddled but blunt truth or else he will get confused and not understand the key elements. He is wounded....so you have to backhand the compliments in as if they were obvious facts everyone already is cognizant of.

And if I was you I would really mention that other young lady that you said he has had interactions with....The one looking at him as if he hung the moon.

I got too many Yiddish words in my vocabulary today...dunno why....maybe Fiddler on the roof....
Thank you for your opinion. I did mention Chelsie in the beginning of the letter, I just didn't post it because it has a lot of details I just don't want on the internet. So I just posted the ending part to get a guys perspective about the flowery language. :)
 
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Sorry....I just am a guy....don't sweat it. I have worked along side of guys in construction for decades...as well as a professional chef, and other places...

I get it. Sorry to be a killjoy. The pretty language for girls? It DEFINITELY is all that. But this is men we are working with here. Focusing on audience or recipients is crucial. It's more important they receive the message than it ever is for us to tell it. (Hence why messengers keep getting killed)
"You who kill your own prophets" is a very bad label given by God and man. And unfortunately too true for Christians and Jews. (However much I wish it wasn't...Muslims do it too but I don't care about them).

Remember the 5 stages of grief?
They are gonna apply here.
This has been a long term relationship. He needs the wake-up.
You don't want the messenger retaliation.

Some days it's just not rainbows and lolipops to be a good friend.
 
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So update to this: Gave him the letter and he took it very well. He was appreciative of the correction and knew I just want whats best for him. Then two leadership mentioned some things that was the basis for my letter, so that was interesting. All glory to God! I'm glad it worked out and with God's guidance.

Thank you again everyone for sharing your opinions :)
 
So update to this: Gave him the letter and he took it very well. He was appreciative of the correction and knew I just want whats best for him. Then two leadership mentioned some things that was the basis for my letter, so that was interesting. All glory to God! I'm glad it worked out and with God's guidance.

Thank you again everyone for sharing your opinions :)
So nice when things work out well....
Of course the saga is ongoing....and I'm going to have a HUGE bit of curiosity about how lives move forward....does everyone get some of their issues resolved to where they behave better?
Do people find love they are proud of and parade around like they invented the word or have the best example of a loving relationship to follow.?

Inquiring minds want to know...
And Hollywood can't have writers write soap operas this good.
 
So nice when things work out well....
Of course the saga is ongoing....and I'm going to have a HUGE bit of curiosity about how lives move forward....does everyone get some of their issues resolved to where they behave better?
Do people find love they are proud of and parade around like they invented the word or have the best example of a loving relationship to follow.?

Inquiring minds want to know...
And Hollywood can't have writers write soap operas this good.
lol a soap opera huh? Yeah, you're not wrong though :ROFL:

But yeah, the saga will definitely continue. We shall see if his behavior changes! I hope so. I am praying for them both, and maybe this will bring them closer together, or realize they aren't right for each other. Either way, we shall see!
 
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So update to this: Gave him the letter and he took it very well. He was appreciative of the correction and knew I just want whats best for him. Then two leadership mentioned some things that was the basis for my letter, so that was interesting. All glory to God! I'm glad it worked out and with God's guidance.

Thank you again everyone for sharing your opinions :)
Iron sharpen iron, sister!!!
 
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Galatians 6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Then there's a verse about going to them in private. Also other verses about being a "busybody". I Peter 4:15 and 1 Timothy 5:13

I would say, leave it alone: a man will eventually notice and he should handle it with the man in private. Just my 2 cents.
 
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I want to start out by saying I haven't been in a group/social settings for decades. My spouse has isolated me over the years and previous to that, I constantly was moving, so I don't even know what the protocol for this is.

So in church, there is a man (I'll name him Bill) who is currently "dating" (I'll name her Sara). Sara doesn't really come to church, she comes every once in a while, but they met through a mutual friend (I'll name her Emily) who is a regular. Both Emily and Bill are regulars in the church. Emily's husband and Bill are in security for the church together and are also close friends. About 8 months ago, Bill met Sara. After a few months of talking, they thought that God was drawing them to each other as a couple, and so they decided to be friends to see if they are compatible with the idea of marriage. They gave themselves 1 year to figure this out. A few months ago, Bill claimed it was getting serious. He's fallen in love with her, he has no doubt in his mind that she is the one for him and even gave a story about how some client of his figured out he was taken because of how he acts. (For context, both people are in their 30's).

Fast forward 5 months. Me and my x are out to lunch with Bill. Bill hits on the waitress. Asks her what dessert they have, and if it could be shared by 2 people, she gives a recommendation to which he says he was hoping to share it with her after she said its only portioned for 1 person. She laughed and walked away. He told me about him doing this before because he said he gets a kick out of making people laugh (he used to get bullied growing up and he found if he makes people laugh it eases the tension) but 5 months into a relationship where he says they've picked out wedding rings and know what gifts theyre giving each other, is a hell of a lot different than doing this in the past. Bill noticed I was upset and asked what was up. I told him it was straight up disrespectful to Sara. At first he got defensive said he was just trying to make her laugh, he wouldn't actually follow through with it but I shook my head and said, it's disrespectful. He sat for a minute, agreed and then apologized.

Fast forward 1 month later. We are currently attending a funeral for someone in the church who passed away. In comes (I'll name her Chelsie). Chelsie and Bill are friends. I witnessed Chelsie and Bill flirt 6 months previous just at the start of Bill getting to know Sara. Now here is where the main issue is. At the ending party, Chelsie was standing next to Bill. Sara did not come. Bill is sitting down. During this entire interaction, Bill has his arm around Chelsie. Chelsie is standing really close to him, about next to his side. The look on her face is she's attracted to him. She says something seriously ignorant which Bill responds with "You have to be kidding. You're joking right?" She laughs and asks "what?" to which Bill responds with, "You're lucky you're so beautiful". And when he said that, he looked her up and down, his eyes landed on her lips and the vibe was clearly sexual. The kind of look a man gives a woman at a bar. I was disgusted. She laughed and swayed into him more. They continued talking for a few more minutes with his arm around her and then she moved to go sit and he got up to go somewhere else...

So here's what I'm asking... I feel really bad for Sara who knows none of this. I know what it feels like to not be loved by a spouse or have someone claim love and do the polar opposite and if anything, any talk of marriage should NOT be on the table right now. I could tell leadership, I could tell Emily who is close friends with both, but I don't know if I should. I don't want it to be me to be the reason they break up because I stuck my nose in someone else's business. Or me cause drama because of it...

So I need help... I need advice... What do I do with this? I don't know Sara at all, I've never met her yet.
My husband flirts with everyone , even lampposts ! He is extremely shy and lacking in confidence so he overcompensates . However , his flirting is never sexual or even mildly crude , he never puts his hands on anyone and as he never goes anywhere without me , he always does it in front of me . I think that maybe Sarah hasn't seen this side of Bill . As we don't really know her we don't know if she would b ok with it or not . To b honest , what u have described from Bill all sounds rather gross and not very christian like . I would b uncomfortable with him on so many levels . All my hubby does is smile a lot and make lots of eye contact , and it doesn't matter who he's talking to , it could b an 80 year old man and that's how he behaves . What u r describing seems to b a bit more than flirting . Flirting is supposed to b subtle and charming , not gross and undignified . I think Sarah needs to know but , how to get her to c this behaviour ? That's the big question . I wish I could give u some good advice . Just b warned , whatever u do , u may end up as the baddie is some ones eyes .
 
I thought about that, but I think I want to try this approach first. Usually with painful wounds, women tend to be more tender about it. So I'm pulling him up on that first to heal, and hoping the actions follow the healing. If he still continues after that, I'll bring it up to his mentor who is also one of the Churches main leaders. I think talking to him twice about it at that point is enough.
If you decide to talk to him one on one make sure it is in a public setting, particularly the church meeting hall during a meeting. I think it would be best to have the conversation recorded and the question I would have is what do you want his response to be?

Odds on favorite is he will say "it was nothing" and try to shrug it off. He might get defensive and attack you for gossip or some other thing. Which is why the one on one approach is good because it is proof you haven't gossiped to anyone.

If you have a smart phone they have a record setting so you can record the conversation. I would say that would be the best. Talk to him one on one at the church meeting in a corner where others cannot hear. Let him know you are recording the conversation. Tell him exactly what you told us in the first post. Not about the flirting with the waitress but about seeing him with his arm around another woman he had been interested in. Do not back down, do not show any fear, and let him know this recording is just in the event that he doesn't repent.
 
If you decide to talk to him one on one make sure it is in a public setting, particularly the church meeting hall during a meeting. I think it would be best to have the conversation recorded and the question I would have is what do you want his response to be?

Odds on favorite is he will say "it was nothing" and try to shrug it off. He might get defensive and attack you for gossip or some other thing. Which is why the one on one approach is good because it is proof you haven't gossiped to anyone.

If you have a smart phone they have a record setting so you can record the conversation. I would say that would be the best. Talk to him one on one at the church meeting in a corner where others cannot hear. Let him know you are recording the conversation. Tell him exactly what you told us in the first post. Not about the flirting with the waitress but about seeing him with his arm around another woman he had been interested in. Do not back down, do not show any fear, and let him know this recording is just in the event that he doesn't repent.
I don't think recording is a good idea.

Her approached him already. That was good.
 
I don't think recording is a good idea.

Her approached him already. That was good.
There is a very good possibility he will attack her, not physically, but trying to discredit her. If all she has is "she said, he said" it could get very ugly because she is tying her hands behind herself by not talking to others while he can spread a lot of negative rumors about her. That way when the story does get out he'll simply claim she is trying to get back at him.

Another possibility is that the situation between him and the other sister could get very ugly and this woman needs to know someone in the church took a stand because otherwise she could think everyone in the church knew what was going on and simply looked the other way.

As it stands no Pastor or elder is going to excommunicate this guy based on the above story, but what it would do would be to raise their awareness and perhaps avert something. However, if he begins to spread lies about her and she discovers this when she talks to the Pastor the recording could eliminate any credibility he has. Also by telling him you are recording this it is a major deterrent to him lying about what this conversation is about. You want to be in public where others can see you having the conversation. You also want the recording to clearly record that you told him you were recording the conversation.
 
There is a very good possibility he will attack her, not physically, but trying to discredit her. If all she has is "she said, he said" it could get very ugly because she is tying her hands behind herself by not talking to others while he can spread a lot of negative rumors about her. That way when the story does get out he'll simply claim she is trying to get back at him.

Another possibility is that the situation between him and the other sister could get very ugly and this woman needs to know someone in the church took a stand because otherwise she could think everyone in the church knew what was going on and simply looked the other way.

As it stands no Pastor or elder is going to excommunicate this guy based on the above story, but what it would do would be to raise their awareness and perhaps avert something. However, if he begins to spread lies about her and she discovers this when she talks to the Pastor the recording could eliminate any credibility he has. Also by telling him you are recording this it is a major deterrent to him lying about what this conversation is about. You want to be in public where others can see you having the conversation. You also want the recording to clearly record that you told him you were recording the conversation.
In my 30 years in church, it is better not to record private conversations, which will start disrespect, suspicious....
If someone announces to record, we will tell him not to do so. Otherwise the conversation can't continue.
It is a common practice not to record conversations.
 
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