Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[azamzimtoti]

Not a matter of excising anything. I'm stating you can't interpret the text literally.

Jesus stated that all would be fulfilled in the 1st century, until you accept that and then look for an interpretation other than the woodenly literal you are not going to understand the prophecies correctly.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

While you are still looking at literal then you will always be in conflict with Jesus and his apostles.

 

[Guojing]

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard that party line.

If you happen to chance upon a letter written by the US president to Americans, and you are not an American, surely you don’t regard all he stated as instructions to you?

 

[crossnote]

If you happen to chance upon a letter written by the US president to Americans, and you are not an American, surely you don’t regard all he stated as instructions to you?

It needs some balancing...

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our (that means us) instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1Co 10:11)

 

[crossnote]

Not a matter of excising anything. I'm stating you can't interpret the text literally.

Jesus stated that all would be fulfilled in the 1st century, until you accept that and then look for an interpretation other than the woodenly literal you are not going to understand the prophecies correctly.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

While you are still looking at literal then you will always be in conflict with Jesus and his apostles.

He said no such thing, that is your interpretation.
All Scriptures were literally fulfilled concerning His first Coming and there is no reason to believe that they won't be literally fulfilled in His 2nd Coming...including His feet standing on the Mt. of Olives splitting it from East to West. Zech 14:1-3.
Like I said, when you spiritualize the text and twist it like Silly Putty, then anything goes.

 

[Guojing]

It needs some balancing...

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our (that means us) instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1Co 10:11)

Yep, we can learn plenty from Noah’s faith in God. He believed when there was probably no rain ever seen on earth then. When he tried to warn his fellow men, they probably laugh at him in all those years he was building the ark. Yet he kept faith in god.

 

[azamzimtoti]

He said no such thing, that is your interpretation

That's exactly what he said, you just can't fit it in with your dispensational understanding.

All Scriptures were literally fulfilled concerning His first Coming and there is no reason to believe that they won't be literally fulfilled in His 2nd Coming...including His feet standing on the Mt. of Olives splitting it from East to West. Zech 14:1-3.
Like I said, when you spiritualize the text and twist it like Silly Putty, then anything goes.

Back to John/Elijah's "voice" - where was the leveling of mountains and a highway hammered out in the desert? John literally came did he not?

Look, you have to take all the context into account:

(Zec 12:3 Moreover, on that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy burden for all the nations, and all who try to carry it will be seriously injured; yet all the peoples of the earth will be assembled against it. )

(Zec 12:9 So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." )

(Zec 12:10 I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.)

(John 19:37 And again another scripture says, "They will look on the one whom they have pierced." )

(Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. )

Zec 13:1 speaks of the death of Christ and the fountain opened for sin at Pentecost.

(Zec 13:7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my associate," says the LORD who rules over all. Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered; I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. )

13:7 is spoken of by Jesus as fulfilled see Matt 26:31 You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered." )

All the above speak of the 1st century AD, Zechariah 14 is a continuation of the above.

The fact is the dispensational view of shoving the above events two thousand years into the future is in error and in flat out contradiction to what Jesus said in Luke and what Peter stated in Acts.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

All the prophets includes Zechariah which announced "these days" which Peter lived in, not days 2000 years in his future.

 

[Guojing]

It needs some balancing...

Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our (that means us) instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. (1Co 10:11)

Furthermore James was deliberately placed after Paul letters. In the age to come, which refers to the great tribulation, it will once again be faith and works for salvation, rev 14 : 12

Thus you can see the role of James for the Jews that will be on earth during that age to come.

 

[crossnote]

Furthermore James was deliberately placed after Paul letters. In the age to come, which refers to the great tribulation, it will once again be faith and works for salvation, rev 14 : 12

Thus you can see the role of James for the Jews that will be on earth during that age to come.

Salvation is, has been, and will always be, by faith...

Romans 4:3-15 ESV
[3] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." [4] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, [6] just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: [7] "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; [8] blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." [9] Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. [10] How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. [11] He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, [12] and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. [13] For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. [15] For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Revelation 14:6-7 NKJV
[6] Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people- [7] saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

 

[Guojing]

Salvation is, has been, and will always be, by faith...

Romans 4:3-15 ESV
[3] For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." [4] Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. [5] And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, [6] just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: [7] "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; [8] blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." [9] Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. [10] How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. [11] He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, [12] and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. [13] For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. [14] For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. [15] For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Revelation 14:6-7 NKJV
[6] Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people- [7] saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water."

If you read what rev 14:12 actually states and you don’t allegorize it, you will notice the word AND in that verse.

As I have already stated, dispy prefer to take the literal meaning. You are free not to do so of course.

 

[crossnote]

That's exactly what he said, you just can't fit it in with your dispensational understanding.



Back to John/Elijah's "voice" - where was the leveling of mountains and a highway hammered out in the desert? John literally came did he not?

Look, you have to take all the context into account:

(Zec 12:3 Moreover, on that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy burden for all the nations, and all who try to carry it will be seriously injured; yet all the peoples of the earth will be assembled against it. )

(Zec 12:9 So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." )

(Zec 12:10 I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.)

(John 19:37 And again another scripture says, "They will look on the one whom they have pierced." )

(Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. )

Zec 13:1 speaks of the death of Christ and the fountain opened for sin at Pentecost.

(Zec 13:7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my associate," says the LORD who rules over all. Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered; I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. )

13:7 is spoken of by Jesus as fulfilled see Matt 26:31 You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered." )

All the above speak of the 1st century AD, Zechariah 14 is a continuation of the above.

The fact is the dispensational view of shoving the above events two thousand years into the future is in error and in flat out contradiction to what Jesus said in Luke and what Peter stated in Acts.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

All the prophets includes Zechariah which announced "these days" which Peter lived in, not days 2000 years in his future.

Nevermind, this is a waste of time, seeing you keep dodging Zechariah 14:1-3 which renders your preterist view impossible without making mince meat of the text.

 

[crossnote]

If you read what rev 14:12 actually states and you don’t allegorize it, you will notice the word AND in that verse.

As I have already stated, dispy prefer to take the literal meaning. You are free not to do so of course.

Ok, let's get literal...

Revelation 14:12 NKJV
[12] Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Not one word about salvation, ...only patience, a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Nevermind, this is a waste of time, seeing you keep dodging Zechariah 14:1-3 which renders your preterist view impossible without making mince meat of the text.

I'm not making anything of the text other than a 1st century AD fulfillment.

What do you think happened in the war of 66-70 AD? Some kind of tea party?

 

[iamsoandso]

One straightforward way to interpret Matt 12:32 is this: This age refers to the age of the law. The age to come refers to the tribulation after the rapture of the church. Thus in those 2 ages, there will be the blasphemy of the HS.

But the current age of the church now is the age of grace, where this sin cannot be committed.

lol(no offense,lol), In that theory the age they were in, in Matthew 12:32 would not be "the age to come" Jesus spoke of if you tink about it. You have it as (age ending,in it there's an unforgivable sin),,,then (age beginning,no unforgivable sin in it) and then(an age beginning and in it an unforgivable sin)...
Jesus seems to be saying that one age would end(in it an unforgivable sin exist) and when it ends the (next age) will also contain an sin that is unforgivable. No offense though it's apparent your looking at it the same as the rest of us,lol.

 

[Guojing]

Ok, let's get literal...

Revelation 14:12 NKJV
[12] Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Not one word about salvation, ...only patience, a fruit of the Spirit.

You are splitting hair here. Do you believe that, in the age to come, it is still possible for an unbeliever to be saved?

If I am an unbelieving Gentile or Jew during the Tribulation, how do I count myself as a saint when Jesus finally make his 2nd return to Earth?

 

[iamsoandso]

If you read what rev 14:12 actually states and you don’t allegorize it, you will notice the word AND in that verse.

As I have already stated, dispy prefer to take the literal meaning. You are free not to do so of course.

Are you an Seventh Day Adventist?(just your choice of the usage of and in reference)that makes me curious (no offense,lol)

 

[Guojing]

lol(no offense,lol), In that theory the age they were in, in Matthew 12:32 would not be "the age to come" Jesus spoke of if you tink about it. You have it as (age ending,in it there's an unforgivable sin),,,then (age beginning,no unforgivable sin in it) and then(an age beginning and in it an unforgivable sin)...
Jesus seems to be saying that one age would end(in it an unforgivable sin exist) and when it ends the (next age) will also contain an sin that is unforgivable. No offense though it's apparent your looking at it the same as the rest of us,lol.

In case the explanation was not clear:

Jesus was on earth during the age of the law, that age has now passed.

The current age of the church is the age of grace, which is still ongoing.

The age to come refers to the Tribulation period, after the church is raptured.

In the 1st and the third, there is such an unforgivable sin, but not in the current age of the church.

 

[Guojing]

Are you an Seventh Day Adventist?(just your choice of the usage of and in reference)that makes me curious (no offense,lol)

No I am not. I am a Mid acts dispy, and as most dispy interpret the bible, we tend to prefer to take the literal meaning of the words, instead of using allegory.

 

[crossnote]

You are splitting hair here. Do you believe that, in the age to come, it is still possible for an unbeliever to be saved?

Sure, it's written many of the Jews will come to see that Jesus was their true Messiah after all.

 

[iamsoandso]

In case the explanation was not clear:

Jesus was on earth during the age of the law, that age has now passed.

The current age of the church is the age of grace, which is still ongoing.

The age to come refers to the Tribulation period, after the church is raptured.

In the 1st and the third, there is such an unforgivable sin, but not in the current age of the church.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-32.htm in the one coming after the one they were in ends(the next one)...

 

[Guojing]

Sure, it's written many of the Jews will come to see that Jesus was their true Messiah after all.

So if I choose to take the mark of the beast after I believe in Jesus, will Jesus consider me as saved at the end of Tribulation, if you read Rev 14:11-12 together?