Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

iamsoandso · Jun 6, 2019

Then in Revelation 14:12 the ones spoken of follow "the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" so then they follow the commandments(like James) and the faith of Jesus. It seems counter productive to say James is in disagreement with Paul and then suggest a Scripture that states literally they followed the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Guojing · Jun 6, 2019

iamsoandso said:

In the age to come, the church will be raptured. The grace dispensation will be over by then. The 144 000 and the 2 witnesses would all be preaching the gospel of the kingdom once again. They will restart the Great Commission.

Thus, Rev 14:12 is talking about salvation thru faith AND works, which is what James is also preaching.

As I have stated, the book of James was one of the 1st NT letters ever written, and yet the Holy Spirit placed it after Paul's letters. One way to understand that is to say that James is a book for the "age to come".

You are of course free not to take that understanding.

iamsoandso · Jun 6, 2019

Guojing said:

In the age to come, the church will be raptured. The grace dispensation will be over by then. The 144 000 and the 2 witnesses would all be preaching the gospel of the kingdom once again. They will restart the Great Commission.

Thus, Rev 14:12 is talking about salvation thru faith AND works, which is what James is also preaching.

As I have stated, the book of James was one of the 1st NT letters ever written, and yet the Holy Spirit placed it after Paul's letters. One way to understand that is to say that James is a book for the "age to come".

You are of course free not to take that understanding.

Did you miss post #1239 and the order Jesus gives? You did not comment on it.

Guojing · Jun 6, 2019

iamsoandso said:

It was already addressed in #1,236. The grace dispensation was a mystery revealed only to the Apostle Paul, after the Jewish nation rejected Jesus.

iamsoandso · Jun 6, 2019

Guojing said:

What do you mean revealed only to Paul,why not Jesus too? Isn't it Jesus who revealed these things to Paul?

Guojing · Jun 6, 2019

iamsoandso said:

Ephesians 3
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Whether Jesus was aware of the mystery dispensation of grace, when he was on Earth, is up for debate. I have no problems accepting that he also knew the Jewish Nation would reject him even after he was resurrected. Some of the parables he spoke of did hint about this possibility. But of course, as the debate over free will and omniscience goes, you might run into issues on whether the Jews did have the option to accept him in Acts, if Jesus already knew and stated in the Gospels that they would reject him.

Scripture also states that only God the Father knows the time of the rapture, and not Jesus the Son, so some people also believed that God the Father knows more than Jesus. Thus, they interpret Ephesians 3:9 as hidden in God the Father, a mystery that none of the OT prophets knew, and possibly not even Jesus, until after Jesus was resurrected and went back to the Father, who revealed that mystery to him.

Either way is fine with me. The ascended Christ Jesus did finally reveal it to Paul, after he saved him. The point remains is that the period of grace dispensation was inserted into timing, after the nation rejected the gospel of the Kingdom by stoning Stephen. All of us are now in the church age, which was neither the age of the law, nor the age to come.

garee · Jun 6, 2019

oldethennew said:

One bride of Christ She is not reckoned after the corrupted body of death. But a new incorruptible bodies . We are not that which we will be. Satan would have us believe the kingdom does come by observation. rather than by faith the eternal

In regards to "all Israel" as the elect will be saved. Notice it does not say "all Jacob" will be saved for a specific reason .

The understanding of all words is important. Add a new meaning change the author's intent.

Jacob deceiver = natural unconverted man a outward Jew.. The newly converted name Israel = is defined as he who wrestles with the flesh and blood signified by Jacob with the power of his new spirit of faith that works in them.

Genesis 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and "hast prevailed".

The new name represent an inward Jew born of the Spirt of God after Israel and not Jacob

He promised his wife Israel a new name to name her which came at the reformation .He kept that promise and name his bride "Christians". Previously called Israel.

Christian a word when defined and no new meaning added that simply "means residents of the City of Christ" named after her husband Christ, She will come down and enter the new heavens and earth on the last day as reveled in Revelation 21.

garee · Jun 6, 2019

Guojing said:

Ephesians 3
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Whether Jesus was aware of the mystery dispensation of grace, when he was on Earth, is up for debate. I have no problems accepting that he also knew the Jewish Nation would reject him even after he was resurrected. Some of the parables he spoke of did hint about this possibility. But of course, as the debate over free will and omniscience goes, you might run into issues on whether the Jews did have the option to accept him in Acts, if Jesus already knew and stated in the Gospels that they would reject him.

Scripture also states that only God the Father knows the time of the rapture, and not Jesus the Son, so some people also believed that God the Father knows more than Jesus. Thus, they interpret Ephesians 3:9 as hidden in God the Father, a mystery that none of the OT prophets knew, and possibly not even Jesus, until after Jesus was resurrected and went back to the Father, who revealed that mystery to him.

Either way is fine with me. The ascended Christ Jesus did finally reveal it to Paul, after he saved him. The point remains is that the period of grace dispensation was inserted into timing, after the nation rejected the gospel of the Kingdom by stoning Stephen. All of us are now in the church age, which was neither the age of the law, nor the age to come.

No such thing as a "dispensation of grace" as a time period. Christ is dispensary or storeroom of grace yes . He had grace on Abel .Grace cannot be reduced to a time period its simply not.

Turning non time elements or doctrines into time elements is not part of the description of rightly diving the word of God .His love in not restricted to time periods .

Where did the idea come from to begin with someone's dream?

garee · Jun 6, 2019

Guojing said:

Grace has no age it is not subject to time restraints . The pure generation of grace not mixed with faithless sinners .But a new creation as the bride of Christ in a new incorruptible body . Corruption will never enter the new order.

There are two ages or generations . The generation of natural man after Adam also called the evil generation not blessed, walk by sight. And the generation of Christ after Christ the spiritual seed . Those who have received the blessing of salvation....walk by faith

One the evil generation of no faith needed to believe God, the first Adam or could be called the generation of the corrupted flesh.

The other, the generation of Christ the new Adam our born again beginning. as those who do have the Spirit of Christ coming from the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Mathew introduces the hidden generation, Christ represented by the Son of man Jesus having fulfilled the geanology .

Mathew 1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham

Having completed the genealogy of the Son of man, Jesus in respect to his temporal flesh which was necessary, needed for the one time demonstration of Isaiah 53. This was according to Romans something the written law could not do it kills and does not heal .God put away the wage of sin in the flesh as a demonstration. The law of faith making the law perfect.

Blasphemy takes away the power of one while accredited it to another. Like plagiarism, rob the authorship.

Note …(purple in parenthesis) my addition to try and make a point

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (not seen) shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, (seen) it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus, seen the temporal was forgiven .This is shown using Peter as perfect example of one forgiven of blasphemy .(Mathew 16 :22-23) paraphrased ; "Peter get behind me Satan for thou Satan has in mind the things of men seen and not our eternal God not seen" .

Because God will not attribute the work of His Spirit to the corrupted flesh of men. That kind of blasphemy today took root from the moment the Son of man, Jesus departed. (if I do not leave the holy Spirit caanot fully It will not be forgiven neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Its what started the big downward bang in beginning. Curiosity killed the faith . God did not want to them to experience death as the validator of spiritual truth .he desired they have faith in Him unseen Adam and Eve attribuied the idea that they would not die to the creation.

Blasphemy against the Son of God is not. Jesus as a man refused to stand in the holy unseen place of the father he would hide from the crowd .or say only God is good to help us walk by faith coming from the Holy glorious place not seen

I think you could say blasphemy ; the now you will be forgiven and now forevermore you will not be forgiven doctrine. Short window 33 years

Romans 8There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, (that seen) but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

In regards to "all Israel" will be saved we need to look at what Paul is sourcing in his letter to the Romans:

(Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain. )

In the above the prophet is predicting vengeance for the shedding of "innocent blood" as per Jesus' claim against the Jews.

(Isa 27:9 Therefore by this the iniquity of Jacob will be covered; and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: When he makes all the stones of the altar like chalkstones that are beaten to dust, wooden images and incense altars shall not stand. )

(Isa 27:10 Yet the fortified city will be desolate, the habitation forsaken and left like a wilderness; there the calf will feed, and there it will lie down and consume its branches. )

(Isa 27:11 When its boughs are withered, they will be broken off; the women come and set them on fire. For it is a people of no understanding; therefore He who made them will not have mercy on them, and He who formed them will show them no favor. )

In the above "Jacob" is purged by judgement, the fortified city (1st century Jerusalem) is destroyed, the unbelieving Jews/Israel are showed no mercy or favor and destroyed (cast out of the kingdom - Matt 8:12).

(Isa 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perversity. )

(Isa 59:20 The Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” Says the LORD. )

(Isa 59:21 “As for Me,” says the LORD, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the LORD, “from this time and forevermore.” )

(Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob)

(Rom 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

Paul in Rom 11:26-27 is conflating Isa 27:9 and Isa 59:20-21.

Isa 59:20 clearly states that only those "who turn from transgression in Jacob" are included in the "all saved", the rest are destroyed/cast out of the kingdom. This occurred in the generation that heard him along with the destruction of the "fortified city" in 70 AD.

All one has to do is look to ROm 11 and get context.

1. He spoke of Isreal as being blinded in part.
2. He spoke of Isreal as being believeingn Israel (the remnant) and unbelieveing Isreal (the lost)
3. He said this partial blindness will continue until the time of the gentile is fulfilled
4. He said AT THAT TIME, ALL ISREAl (meaning the whole nation) WILL BE SAVED. Because hsaid the redeemer will come, (remember christ already came to redeem the world. In this contrast. The redeemer comming was a future event, and he was ONLY coming for Isreal. To redeem them.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Actually it is deeper than that. It started with adam and eve, So it is not really even spiritual Isreal. It is the family of God. Jew or gentile who have been adopted by him since the beginning of time.

I think the term spiritual israel is what confuses people into thinking things which are not really accurate/

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

This makes no sense at all my friend.

Jesus did not stand on the mount of Olives and that mountain split in 2 on AD 70.

A fulfilment must be complete. You can not take a partial or spiritualised fulfiment and claim it has been fulfilled.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

crossnote said:

I like how subtly you excised the Zechariah passage to introduce another question...

Zechariah 14:2-4 ESV
[2] For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. [3] Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. [4] On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

So all nations came against Jerusalem, the women raped,and the Lord came anf fought against those nations, standing on the Mt. of Olives, splitting the Mt. in two all in 70AD?

Amen

Again, Partial or spiritualized fulfillment when part of it seems to be fulfilled literally is not a true fulfiment.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

Yes you can

Just because you say we can not does not mean thats true.

And jesus did NOT state all would be fulfilled. Jesus clearly said in matt 24 that these things would not be fulfilled for many years (there will be wars and rumors of wars. Nations will ruse against nation and kingdom against kingdom, but the end is not yet)
Those events have been ongoing from ad 70 and continue today.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

That's exactly what he said, you just can't fit it in with your dispensational understanding.

Back to John/Elijah's "voice" - where was the leveling of mountains and a highway hammered out in the desert? John literally came did he not?

Look, you have to take all the context into account:

(Zec 12:3 Moreover, on that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy burden for all the nations, and all who try to carry it will be seriously injured; yet all the peoples of the earth will be assembled against it. )

(Zec 12:9 So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." )

(Zec 12:10 I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn.)

(John 19:37 And again another scripture says, "They will look on the one whom they have pierced." )

(Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. )

Zec 13:1 speaks of the death of Christ and the fountain opened for sin at Pentecost.

(Zec 13:7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my associate," says the LORD who rules over all. Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered; I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones. )

13:7 is spoken of by Jesus as fulfilled see Matt 26:31 You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered." )

All the above speak of the 1st century AD, Zechariah 14 is a continuation of the above.

The fact is the dispensational view of shoving the above events two thousand years into the future is in error and in flat out contradiction to what Jesus said in Luke and what Peter stated in Acts.

(Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.)

(Acts 3:24 And all the prophets, from Samuel and those who followed him, have spoken about and announced these days.)

All the prophets includes Zechariah which announced "these days" which Peter lived in, not days 2000 years in his future.

You have many issues

For one, Isreal was nto completely scattered UNTIL ad 70

So the restoration of Isreal and Jesus ascending had to be AFTER those events.

And ALL prophets spoke of events which had to happen first. And most of them did not happen before ad 70 and some have not yet happened up till today.

Instead of attacking someone as following a belief system, open you eyes and see you are doing that very thing yourself.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

crossnote said:

Amen

It also says this is who they are and WHAT THEY DO

It does not say what MAKES THEM saints.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

What happened in those years was like a picnic compaired to WW1 and WW2

Jesus and the prophet Jeremiah, said these days (great tribulation/time of Jacob’s trouble) would be so severe there would be nothing like it, up till that time, or after it.

Since things have occured after ad 70 period which were gravely and far superior in terms of tribulation and suffering on the earth, It can not be interpreted to be AD 70

Unless you interpret based on your preterist view.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

Guojing said:

Well the majority of disy’s believe salvation has always been by the means of grace. Not what you are preaching, which is duel covenant theology

It is people like you which give us a bad name, and why the preterist is so fired up against us, because they do not understand us at all.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 6, 2019

garee said:

SMH

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Ephesians 3:2if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,

I guess this was pauls dream?

UnderGrace · Jun 6, 2019

azamzimtoti said:

Exactly, dispensationalist teachers have always down played the significance but the historical record is clear, but few go the extra mile and actually read primary sources.

Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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