Are catholics Christian?

[watcher2013]

IF those angels, and Mary can hear them and their prayers it is no difference than YOU asking your pastor to pray for your family during rough times.

The difference : Pastor Physically alive praying for you. Mary sleeping.. waiting for the resurrection.

There is certainly NO theological issue here. I, personally, think it' silly to pray to a dead person. If they are dead and in heaven next to the awesomeness of GOD, I'm quite sure their attention is focused on Their LORD AND GOD and all of His loving might.

But, as this is a matter of faith, not salvific theology, I have to reference that the two men eating meat had an issue of faith, and were told NOT to nudge each other about it.

I have to ask the room, seriously, is praying to angels, saints or Mary of any relevance and change the Gospel? Or is it just something weird that gets picked at, like the KKK picks at a black man in 1950?

since you ask the room...here is my response.

1. Praying to dead people is a form of witch craft - 1Sa_28:7 Then saidSaul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I maygo to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is awoman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

2.Praying to Mary forDeliverance is a form of idolatry
Isa 44:17 And theresidue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down untoit, and worshippeth it, and prayeth untoit, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. (SHALL I Pray, Mary theMother of God, Catechism para 966 "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leavethe world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. Youconceived the living God and, by yourprayers, will deliver our souls from death.)

It not only changes the Gospel but it changes who is your Saviour.

 

[watcher2013]

well some things are worth fighting for like forgiveness, but bringing up some old teaching to make catholics to look bad is more like hatred to me, (take that how you like, (but it is not forgiveness. catholicism has been around at lot longer, been through the dark ages too, survived and gave modern day times there religion , (a true religion at that.)
so what if they have mad a few mistakes along the way, they have a polagised, and put it right,
see the thing iis people who forgive are bound tomake mistakes along the way, because people take advantage of that and then walk all over people, now how true the bad points are and to what level im not, but granted mistakes have been mad, but hey christanty is stll here, cheer up kid , its not as bad as you think it is the church does correct its mistakes,

those who said that the catholic church is the pillar of truth could probably disagree with you. (truth then...false later)

Modern day times

Pope francis.

"Atheist don't have to to believe in God to go to heaven"

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven - Europe - World - The Independent

 

[Quickfire]

slight mistake cathlicism did not give us the true religion God did but cathlics helped to keep it goin

 

[Quickfire]

those who said that the catholic church is the pillar of truth could probably disagree with you. (truth then...false later)

Modern day times

Pope francis.

"Atheist don't have to to believe in God to go to heaven"

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven - Europe - World - The Independent

honesty im not getting to pope discusions here, been there done, that (no not going there again, mistakes have been corrected, thing is though theres bound to be mistake because they are the bggest after all, like so many people are catholics, and at one time every christian church was under the rule of the pope, so only the caths could make mistakes, but now you have hundres of diffrent church leaders making them , from diffrent denominations

 

[Quickfire]

The ? would then here be?
What produces works?
What produces Faith?

[h=3]Galatians 5:5-1[/h]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]As for us, our hope is that God will put us right with him; and this is what we wait for by the power of God's Spirit working through our faith.

10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]But I still feel confident about you. Our life in union with the Lord makes me confident that you will not take a different view and that whoever is upsetting you will be punished by God

 

[Glen]

I don’t know why Roman Catholics are so concerned aboutwhether they might or might not be Christians: the latest news from their newpope is that even atheists will go to heaven!

Pope says atheistswill go to heaven:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

So why do Roman Catholics even worry about whether or not theyare Christians? Their pope says thateven atheists can go to heaven, and we can be sure that’s true, because, as theCatholics have always declared: when their pope speaks, “Ex cathedra,” he’s infallible, and speaks in the Name of Jesus,with Jesus’ perfection!

But I’m confused; Catholics have always said (‘ex cathedra’) that, “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “There’s no salvation outside of RomanCatholicism!” They’ve always toldthe Protestants that Protestants must become Roman Catholics to go to heaven;does this mean, then, that you can go to heaven if you’re an atheist, but youcan’t go to heaven if you’re a Protestant? I guess that being a Protestant is even worse than being anatheist! Wow! Jesus-On-Earth is really coming up with somenew doctrines… or is it that he’s only revealing to us now, some secretdoctrines that Jesus-In-Heaven has always said?

Roman Catholics have always said that their pope is, “The Vicar (Replacement) of Christ,”Jesus’ infallible representative on earth! But Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.!” If so, why are,“Christ’s,” words changing with the times, and each new pope who comesalong? And why did Jesus die, if Hedidn’t have to … since even an atheist can get to heaven, if he’s just sincerein his unbelief? So Jesus died in vain??

(The REAL)Jesus said to us,
“16 For God so loved theworld, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shouldnot perish, but have everlasting life. 17 ForGod sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the worldthrough Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: buthe that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in thename of the only begotten Son of God.” – John 3:16-18

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I've been out of this thread for a long time and am only stopping by but that's pretty amazing that Pope Francis says a person can be an atheist who rejects Jesus Christ and simply follows their own conscience and are guaranteed a place in heaven.

What if they are a Muslim who rejects Jesus Christ and is murdering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam because their conscience tells them to as is occurring in the Middle East right now. Or a pagan homosexual engaging in wild homosexual acts with many people while leading people into the bondage of the occult because their conscience tells them they were "born that way" and are deceived about the occult. Etc... etc... etc...

This is why we hold to sola scripture and not Catholic doctrine when it comes into opposition to scripture.

As for the Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility, I will say that you need to study it further because you mistakenly believe that the Catholic doctrine of Papal infallibility applies to whatever the Pope says but it does not.

The infallible teachings of the Pope must be based on, or at least not contradict, Sacred Tradition or Sacred Scripture. There are conditions that must be met before a Pope's statement can be declared infallible. According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:

1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority"....)
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)

For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must be a decision of the supreme teaching authority of the Church (pope or College of Bishops); it must concern a doctrine of faith or morals; it must bind the universal Church; and it must be proposed as something to be held firmly and immutably.

The terminology of a definitive decree will usually make clear that this last condition is fulfilled, as through a formula such as "By the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We declare, pronounce and define the doctrine . . . to be revealed by God and as such to be firmly and immutably held by all the faithful", or through an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church.
In July 2005 Pope Benedict XVI stated during an impromptu address to priests in Aosta that: "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know". His predecessor Pope John XXIII once remarked: "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible".

A doctrine proposed by a pope as his own opinion, not solemnly proclaimed as a doctrine of the Church, may be rejected as false, even if it is on a matter of faith and morals, and even more any view he expresses on other matters.

A well-known example of a personal opinion on a matter of faith and morals that was taught by a pope but rejected by the Church is the view that Pope John XXII expressed on when the dead can reach the beatific vision.

This doctrine of Pope Francis obviously conflicts with the Bible and is not infallible even by the liberal Roman Catholic definition.

But just the fact that he said it is very disturbing. One would think a Pope would have studied the New Testament. WOW!

I don’t know why Roman Catholics are so concerned aboutwhether they might or might not be Christians: the latest news from their newpope is that even atheists will go to heaven!

Pope says atheistswill go to heaven:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/10302850/Pope-Francis-reaches-out-to-atheists-and-agnostics.html

So why do Roman Catholics even worry about whether or not theyare Christians? Their pope says thateven atheists can go to heaven, and we can be sure that’s true, because, as theCatholics have always declared: when their pope speaks, “Ex cathedra,” he’s infallible, and speaks in the Name of Jesus,with Jesus’ perfection!

But I’m confused; Catholics have always said (‘ex cathedra’) that, “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” or, “There’s no salvation outside of RomanCatholicism!” They’ve always toldthe Protestants that Protestants must become Roman Catholics to go to heaven;does this mean, then, that you can go to heaven if you’re an atheist, but youcan’t go to heaven if you’re a Protestant? I guess that being a Protestant is even worse than being anatheist! Wow! Jesus-On-Earth is really coming up with somenew doctrines… or is it that he’s only revealing to us now, some secretdoctrines that Jesus-In-Heaven has always said?

Roman Catholics have always said that their pope is, “The Vicar (Replacement) of Christ,”Jesus’ infallible representative on earth! But Hebrews 13:8 says, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.!” If so, why are,“Christ’s,” words changing with the times, and each new pope who comesalong? And why did Jesus die, if Hedidn’t have to … since even an atheist can get to heaven, if he’s just sincerein his unbelief? So Jesus died in vain??

(The REAL)Jesus said to us,
“16 For God so loved theworld, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shouldnot perish, but have everlasting life. 17 ForGod sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the worldthrough Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: buthe that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in thename of the only begotten Son of God.” – John 3:16-18

 

[TannarDarr]

are gees man, who told you they prayed directly to the dead, ? (again is this individual belief ?.

Ok lets say you and person you get into an argument , you have not been friends with that person for some time,
for many reason you hate each other, one of you want to deliberately hit the other person (not a moment of madness but a planned moment that has built up inside of you (hate) , now the next thing is that happens you hit him he dies (murder).
now that person is in a place of Purgatory waiting for The day when Jesus may or may not set him free,

before he died he did many sins against you he did not ask for forgiveness, or repent, now if you had not of struck him maybe he might of asked for forgiveness , who knows, you would never know
(this is why people see suicide as unforgivable because they have murdered them selves and not ask for forgiveness.)

now you know that saints collect prayers what if they hear the prayer of you saying lord it was just as much my fault as it was his.
we both quarreled we both argued and fighted,
lets say he stole from you, with the same desire you wanted to hit him (planned) so whats so bad praying that god hears your prayer that it was all not his fault lord please forgive him. ?
that is prayer for that dead, or please lord i forgive him can you ask him if he forgives me on the day of judgement,
(remember Moses was a murderer too.) but he had time to change. there a few others too. (Moses is in heaven inst he

ok next point it could be young adult dies young didn't know the lord did drugs cheated you name it,
his mother becomes a christian afterwards, she feels convicted for not having taught her son Christianity , she might offer prayer for the saints, saying lord please forgive my son he did not know you and i did not teach him,

these are prayers for the saints theese are prayers for the dead,

now if you live a ripe old age of 80 its a pretty safe bet your going to learn about the bible forgiveness etc, but if you do not have forgiveness afterwards then its a pretty safe bet you will turn into a wicked old man or wicked old lady,
that's not directed at you but others who may read this.
I have read your posts and i see something good there.
but just want to clear your statement so that people do not seethat Catholics pray directly to the dead , but in ways i have mentioned hear. they pray for the dead and pray so the saints may here them to.

Keeping it simple.

When life ceases on earth, they are dead.

Jesus was DEAD when life on earth ceased.

Pedantics don't impress me. Sorry.

 

[TannarDarr]

I've been out of this thread for a long time and am only stopping by but that's pretty amazing that Pope Francis says a person can be an atheist who rejects Jesus Christ and simply follows their own conscience and are guaranteed a place in heaven.

So, let's see. You think the Spirit of God is incapable of calling them. Brilliant. What other limitations does God have?

And let's see. What Francis said, is straight scripture. Challenge me on this. THE ONLY THING you must get right to be "into heaven" whatever that means, is get the love right. NOT walk around saying in a mushy voice you love people, GETTING IT RIGHT.

And that, friend, happens through works, not knowledge. So says John, Paul, and is demonstrated by the Christ. James as well, but I never checked Peter much on this.

IT IS TRULY amazing that someone will step out of the box long enough to understand the Bible rather than parrot Grudem's systematic theology at the world. :|

 

[TannarDarr]

I don’t know why Roman Catholics are so concerned aboutwhether they might or might not be Christians: the latest news from their newpope is that even atheists will go to heaven!

That is a deliberate misrepresentation. Therefore it is a lie.

When you have to lie about a group of people, a WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE, because of the actions of one of them, there is a word for that. You may find it in the captions of Westboro Baptist Church news pictures.

 

[TannarDarr]

slight mistake cathlicism did not give us the true religion God did but cathlics helped to keep it goin

That was GOD'S INSTRUMENT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, according to scripture.

Protestants need to get over themselves and understand this stuff before taking the pie outta their mouth sometimes.

 

[TannarDarr]

The difference : Pastor Physically alive praying for you. Mary sleeping.. waiting for the resurrection.

You assume a lot. Does it make you feel more right to confirm your own assumptions?
1) You don't know that the pastor will pray for you.
2) You dont' know if He has faith enough that God will hear him.
3) you don't know that those who aren't here anylonger can NOT hear you.
4) The Catholics believe they can.
5) How does it affect Faith???? IT DOESN'T. In fact it pretty much shows they have more faith.
6) Their way is much more akin to how you would speak to KINGs anyway. You wouldn't walk in kick your feet up and address the King, HEY ARTHUR I want a wife and a job! You would talk to him through a mediator. It's the way it was done for thousands of years.
7) The two men eating meat, was a matter of faith. But the same action was a sin for both. The lesson was, don't argue over things of faith.
8) Paul wrote that things that are divisive and cause factions and splits are of the FLESH motivation, not led by the Spirit. Well HELLLO protestants bashing catholics, that's exactly what we do when we go there.
9) I can go on, but I'm done for now.

since you ask the room...here is my response.

1. Praying to dead people is a form of witch craft - 1Sa_28:7 Then saidSaul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I maygo to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is awoman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

What Saul spoke with at Endor was Elohim. Go check me on that. Besides, that isn't what they are doing, and it's idiotic to make that comparison. They DO NOT GO TO A SEER to consult God. That might be some of the Hebrew Kaballah mystics, but not Rome. WHY would you imply such a thing, that is just hateful and mean spirited.

2.Praying to Mary forDeliverance is a form of idolatry
Isa 44:17 And theresidue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down untoit, and worshippeth it, and prayeth untoit, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god. (SHALL I Pray, Mary theMother of God, Catechism para 966 "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leavethe world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. Youconceived the living God and, by yourprayers, will deliver our souls from death.)

Well heck, it's in THEETH, FALLETH and THOUETH you must be right, AMEN!
Mary isn't a graven image that is worshiped. For you to say so, is something said out of fear and ignorance. LIterally, I'm not "cutting you down". You simply do NOT know what you are speaking of. AND REMEMBER, I'm not Catholic, I prefer to debate them, rather than defend them.

It not only changes the Gospel but it changes who is your Saviour.

OH THAT IS UTTER HOGOWASH IT CHANGES NEITHER. ANDDDDDD If you are going to say something like that, explain it. An empty accusation is fraudulent.

 

[TannarDarr]

those who said that the catholic church is the pillar of truth could probably disagree with you. (truth then...false later)

Modern day times

Pope francis.

"Atheist don't have to to believe in God to go to heaven"

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don’t have to believe in God to go to heaven - Europe - World - The Independent

Scripture backs him up.

Which shows how prepared the protestant world is. Rather than research something, it's much more fun to just go off on the one who said it and be totally ignorant of WHY he said it.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Thank you for the brilliant complement.

While the Bible teaches us that “with God, all things are possible” (Matt. 19:26), and “with God nothing is impossible” (Luke 1:37), scripture also teaches that God does have limitations and also has limited Himself.

For example, God cannot and will not do anything that is inconsistent with His holy character or divine essence. God limits Himself for reasons of His own holiness. A good example is found in Titus 1:2 which states, “in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago...” Why can’t God lie? Because lying is contrary to His holiness or His perfect character which includes veracity or truthfulness.

And, even a cursory look at the world reveals that just because God can do something does not automatically equate to He has or will do that something.

Matthew 22:14 states, "πολλοὶ γάρ εἰσι κλητοί, ὀλίγοι δὲ ἐκλεκτοί" in relation to the wedding feast parable where Jesus foretells that though Israel was called to Himself, few chose to respond to the Messiah and only appropriation for sin (2 Corinthians. 5:21)whom stated in John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father [God] but through Me."

Note eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him. Accordingly, these two terms are directly connected (see Tit 1:1; Lk 18:7,8).

Every person's sin causes a separation between them and God (Isaiah 59:2) and the result is death (Romans 6:23) and wrath (Ephesians 2:3). The only way out, is through Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1). Trusting that sometimes following your conscience while rejecting Jesus Christ, isn't enough. It is only through Christ that one's sins can be remitted and that they can ever be spiritually reborn to even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

Now the Pope wrote: "The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience. To listen and to follow your conscience means that you understand the difference between good and evil. God forgives those who obey their conscience." He said that the "mercy of God has no limits" encompassing non-believers who willfully reject Jesus Christ and do what is right in their own eyes (Proverbs 26:12).

When the Pope, or anyone else for that matter, states something that is in opposition to what Jesus Christ says; then I have to go with Jesus Christ.

The Pope made a statement that simply isn't true. Sinners cannot willfully reject Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5; Matthew 10:32-33) to do whatever they feel is right in their own eyes and go to heaven.

Etc... and so on.

So, let's see. You think the Spirit of God is incapable of calling them. Brilliant. What other limitations does God have?

And let's see. What Francis said, is straight scripture. Challenge me on this. THE ONLY THING you must get right to be "into heaven" whatever that means, is get the love right. NOT walk around saying in a mushy voice you love people, GETTING IT RIGHT.

And that, friend, happens through works, not knowledge. So says John, Paul, and is demonstrated by the Christ. James as well, but I never checked Peter much on this.

IT IS TRULY amazing that someone will step out of the box long enough to understand the Bible rather than parrot Grudem's systematic theology at the world. :|

 

[Quickfire]

I have decided not to get invovled anymore in catholic debates here or threads about catholics,
no matter what anyone says, the attacks will just keep on coming, its like some sought of machine out of control and spreading, its so bizzare, its wave upon wave of attack, its never ending, its lke world war 2, sad reallly
im of to find some pleasant threads, goodbye protestants enjoy your hateful words that hold nothing but planned evil contempt.

 

[homwardbound]

unless you are a true deciple of the lord and dont sin then how can anyone forgive evryone and say they do not know what they do (like Jesus does ?
how can anyone hold themselves as high as Jesus, (This is where religion gets lost because people look to take the plank out of others befor they take the plank out of there own, so you see peoples rightousness goes to there head and befor you know it, they start thinking ther God.

Holding oneself high is ludicrous, I know I have sinned and have taken on the only way out, and that is seeing all things from Father's vantage point in Christ's finished work for me and all that believe God at the cross where new life is given to the ones that believe God.
I am not focused on whether or not I sin anymore, I am focused on what God did for me at the cross, and have decided to be co-crucified with Christ's death that I might:
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

The doorway is through death unto life in Christ in the Spirit of God, not any of my own works ever.

It is all God and none of you, me or anyone else.

 

[homwardbound]

ok because you are not of any religion, does that make you less accountable to God? (you do know what goes on in none denominational churches dont you ? (gay marriage the lot (OH YEAH) it happens
but granted you can be a none denominational christian, and be saved,


but to think because you are not off any religion will get you saved, (if thats what you are thinkng is wrong, if you are thinking that. ( i know ive herd all the arguments the road s narrow etc. its only narrow if choose to be hateful (thats it end off for me) if you believe that only none denominational people are the only to be saved, THEN YOUR JUST another bad indoctrined poor soul that needs to start a fresh, your 56 now you must have many reason for not being of any religion or denom,
maybe you have always ben that way i do not know, but even if you was church of england protestant etc. you could still be a giving christian towards cathlolics

Only one true tabernacle and it is not here of this earth:

[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man

Jesus was very clear on this world here is not his, as he had Peter put down the sword and heal that man's ear. Told Peter his kingdom was not here, if it were there would be angels there at that time to fight.
Pretty clear to me, in being a believer, we are made citizens of Heaven, in the Spirit of God.

 

[homwardbound]

forgot to mention there also homeward, do you you believe that Christianity in not a religion ? as it looks like your saying you dont , becasuse you see religion as works based ?

Does God rather you respond to God? as God's creation?
Or do you think that if we do we get? This is exactly how this world works Brother. have many times turned God into a vending machine
So do we do to get, being in a sense a creator and get God to respond to us?
Is God the creator and we the creation? Do you see what this world is doing and has done.

 

[homwardbound]

You still did not answer the question, but let me rephrase it.

do the Muslims worship false god?

I have answered that, that it is not my place to place condemnation on anyone. I have been forgiven for all, so how can I condemn anyone, since the creator chose not to condemn me. Sorry you just don't get it
The Mercy from God to you and all the world
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[homwardbound]

Galatians 5:5-1


[SUP]5 [/SUP]As for us, our hope is that God will put us right with him; and this is what we wait for by the power of God's Spirit working through our faith.

10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]But I still feel confident about you. Our life in union with the Lord makes me confident that you will not take a different view and that whoever is upsetting you will be punished by God

I pray for those that use me, bless those that do not see the Love of God in the pure form, and can only be revealed by God in The Spirit of God
Love you and thank you Gal. [SUP]5 [/SUP]As for us, our hope is that God will put us right with him; and this is what we wait for by the power of God's Spirit working through our faith

Love it knowing God will and does always come through to his children, teaching us 100% dependency on God as Chrsit so well showed us in his walk here on earth, trusting God the Father to do through him, by his trusting Father. This is to be the same for all believer's.