Are pastors, elders, apostles, teachers appointed by God, or are they self-appointed?

[UnitedWithChrist]

Please note that I do not believe that there are any modern-day Apostles in the sense of the Twelve and Paul, so I do not think it is appropriate for any living human being to call himself an apostle. In fact, I think it is a sign of a very vain and prideful attitude to strut around, declaring one's self to be a holder of this office.

I already covered this in another thread.

But, my question relates to pastors, elders, apostles, and teachers. Some have asserted that you can appoint yourself to one of these offices.

This is the topic of discussion: what does Scripture say in this regard?

I think it's pretty evident that no one can rightly declare themselves to be a pastor, elder, apostle, or teacher. My position would be that the church recognizes the person as possessing these gifts, and the person doesn't recognize themselves as an office-holder.

And, if someone does recognize themselves as one of these office-holders, they are likely full of pride and vanity.

Here's a few articles I would use to support this:

https://corechristianity.com/resour...TsXE5NSoE0s0w-NNP0npZDtPFSJhHq8u-XFExO4TxDjss

https://thecripplegate.com/are-there-still-apostles-today/

To be honest, I think that online Christian forums tend to attract such types, as they don't want to work within the parameters of the church congregation. Their gifts are greatly exaggerated in this regard. Some who claim to be teachers are actually incoherent and don't have a well-considered theology.

Of course, it's great that folks are able to discuss topics here, and there are many knowledgeable Christians that work within the parameters of the local congregation, but there is a lot of leeway for "lone ranger Christians" to set themselves up as teachers online, too, when their local body of believers would realize that they are not equipped to teach.

Anyways, the essential question is this: does the church recognize spiritual officeholders, or do spiritual officeholders recognize themselves?

I will also note that there are many self-affirmation societies, such as the organization I mentioned, which issues apostolic certificates to individuals for a fee. So, being recognized by some society is not a measure of being a spiritual officeholder either. But, I do believe the local congregation of sound churches are best equipped to recognize those endowed with certain gifts and to recognize them as officeholders.

Additionally, God obviously calls the person to the office. Therefore, I do not deny this whatsoever. I am talking about RECOGNITION, not the actual calling itself. The church affirms the calling, though, by recognizing the fruit of the individual, which is borne by God's anointing upon the person's life. However, I believe it is prideful to declare one's self an officeholder.

And, the reality is that many who think they are teachers do not possess the gift. I have seen total loons declare themselves to be teachers.

 

[Lightskin]

I love the simplicity Jesus invokes.

 

[Kolistus]

Everyone always claims to be God appointed, so thats the right answer.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Every tree not planted by God he will up root.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I'm talking about being appointed to a specific office, like apostle, teacher, elder, deacon, etcetera.

I do believe every real Christian is elected in the sense of salvation, and in terms of witnessing to this generation.

By the way, I am positive that pride and vanity causes many new Christians (especially males) to think that God has called them to some fantastic office. I had the same kind of vanity as a young believer. It's too bad, though, that some never grow out of it.

 

[JaumeJ]

Idealy these positions were decided by prayer and at times prayer and lots………….

 

[Dino246]

Any joker can rent a hall, hang a shingle, start a "church", and effectively become a pastor. Why any healthy person would want to, outside of God's specific direction, is beyond me.

I have no issue with referring to someone as "the pastor of (x) congregation", but I won't address that person as "Pastor Joe" (or whatever his/her name is). Anyone who requests that others use a term of role as a title is not demonstrating proper humility for that role. I believe that God alone calls certain individuals to these roles, and He normally uses human processes to put His choice of person in a particular role. He has also given us direction in His word, and direction by His Spirit, so we can't blame Him when things go wrong.

 

[oldethennew]

Dino,
if hub and I could give you (five stars' for your answer we would!!!

 

[p_rehbein]

I'm talking about being appointed to a specific office, like apostle, teacher, elder, deacon, etcetera.

I do believe every real Christian is elected in the sense of salvation, and in terms of witnessing to this generation.

By the way, I am positive that pride and vanity causes many new Christians (especially males) to think that God has called them to some fantastic office. I had the same kind of vanity as a young believer. It's too bad, though, that some never grow out of it.

View attachment 212262

Are you not familiar with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? You might want to start there............then come back and talk about those folks and how they are "appointed."

 

[p_rehbein]

Any joker can rent a hall, hang a shingle, start a "church", and effectively become a pastor. Why any healthy person would want to, outside of God's specific direction, is beyond me.

I have no issue with referring to someone as "the pastor of (x) congregation", but I won't address that person as "Pastor Joe" (or whatever his/her name is). Anyone who requests that others use a term of role as a title is not demonstrating proper humility for that role. I believe that God alone calls certain individuals to these roles, and He normally uses human processes to put His choice of person in a particular role. He has also given us direction in His word, and direction by His Spirit, so we can't blame Him when things go wrong.

HUGE DIFFERENCE between someone "requesting" that they be addressed with a Title, and members of the Congregation acknowledging their Pastor as Pastor. Jesus was addressed with several Titles out of respect, so as He directed Pastors to "feed His sheep," what could possibly be wrong with showing respect for their being anointed by Christ to "feed His sheep?"

Folks raise their children to acknowledge their elders with Titles.......... "Sir", "Mam" and such, and folks have no problem with that, but they draw the line at acknowledging their Pastor? Seriously?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Are you not familiar with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit? You might want to start there............then come back and talk about those folks and how they are "appointed."

If your issue is with vocabulary, then I would modify the word to "distributed" in the case of gifts.

The Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He wills, not according to what a man decides he should receive.

I'm not sure what the issue is, though, perhaps you'd like to clarify.

 

[Dino246]

HUGE DIFFERENCE between someone "requesting" that they be addressed with a Title, and members of the Congregation acknowledging their Pastor as Pastor. Jesus was addressed with several Titles out of respect, so as He directed Pastors to "feed His sheep," what could possibly be wrong with showing respect for their being anointed by Christ to "feed His sheep?"

Folks raise their children to acknowledge their elders with Titles.......... "Sir", "Mam" and such, and folks have no problem with that, but they draw the line at acknowledging their Pastor? Seriously?

I look at it quite simply: "pastor" is not a title; it's a role.

 

[Marcelo]

Are pastors, elders, apostles, teachers appointed by God, or are they self-appointed?

My denomination has roots in the Azusa Street movement -- our leaders are supposed to strive to let themselves be led by the Holy Spirit -- and yet we have many preachers who don't seem to have been chosen by God.

In my denomination ministers are not salaried and don't receive gifts -- all of them have secular jobs, are self employed or are retired -- and yet some brothers are even willing to sell their moms to win a position as a preacher.

I can exercise no influence over the selection of ministers, but thank God I have freedom to read the Bible and to bent my knees before His holy throne and ask Him to teach me how to subject myself to His will.

 

[notuptome]

Such men are gifted to the church by God. Eph 4:11. Many claim to be called to the ministry but they are not called of God. Mostly they are called by their own zeal and walk in the power of their own will. Such turn the faith of many onto the shoals.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[watchman333]

Please note that I do not believe that there are any modern-day Apostles in the sense of the Twelve and Paul, so I do not think it is appropriate for any living human being to call himself an apostle. In fact, I think it is a sign of a very vain and prideful attitude to strut around, declaring one's self to be a holder of this office.

I already covered this in another thread.

But, my question relates to pastors, elders, apostles, and teachers. Some have asserted that you can appoint yourself to one of these offices.

This is the topic of discussion: what does Scripture say in this regard?

I think it's pretty evident that no one can rightly declare themselves to be a pastor, elder, apostle, or teacher. My position would be that the church recognizes the person as possessing these gifts, and the person doesn't recognize themselves as an office-holder.

And, if someone does recognize themselves as one of these office-holders, they are likely full of pride and vanity.

Here's a few articles I would use to support this:

https://corechristianity.com/resour...TsXE5NSoE0s0w-NNP0npZDtPFSJhHq8u-XFExO4TxDjss

https://thecripplegate.com/are-there-still-apostles-today/

To be honest, I think that online Christian forums tend to attract such types, as they don't want to work within the parameters of the church congregation. Their gifts are greatly exaggerated in this regard. Some who claim to be teachers are actually incoherent and don't have a well-considered theology.

Of course, it's great that folks are able to discuss topics here, and there are many knowledgeable Christians that work within the parameters of the local congregation, but there is a lot of leeway for "lone ranger Christians" to set themselves up as teachers online, too, when their local body of believers would realize that they are not equipped to teach.

Anyways, the essential question is this: does the church recognize spiritual officeholders, or do spiritual officeholders recognize themselves?

I will also note that there are many self-affirmation societies, such as the organization I mentioned, which issues apostolic certificates to individuals for a fee. So, being recognized by some society is not a measure of being a spiritual officeholder either. But, I do believe the local congregation of sound churches are best equipped to recognize those endowed with certain gifts and to recognize them as officeholders.

Additionally, God obviously calls the person to the office. Therefore, I do not deny this whatsoever. I am talking about RECOGNITION, not the actual calling itself. The church affirms the calling, though, by recognizing the fruit of the individual, which is borne by God's anointing upon the person's life. However, I believe it is prideful to declare one's self an officeholder.

And, the reality is that many who think they are teachers do not possess the gift. I have seen total loons declare themselves to be teachers.

Some are called, to serve Him, but few are chosen, such as His elect, from the foundation of the world. Then there are others, who appoint themselves for earthly reasons, like money, whom the Lord will proclaim He never knew.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Any joker can rent a hall, hang a shingle, start a "church", and effectively become a pastor. Why any healthy person would want to, outside of God's specific direction, is beyond me.

I have no issue with referring to someone as "the pastor of (x) congregation", but I won't address that person as "Pastor Joe" (or whatever his/her name is). Anyone who requests that others use a term of role as a title is not demonstrating proper humility for that role. I believe that God alone calls certain individuals to these roles, and He normally uses human processes to put His choice of person in a particular role. He has also given us direction in His word, and direction by His Spirit, so we can't blame Him when things go wrong.

Personally, I’ve never called anyone “Pastor ______”, just “Brother ______”. But if others call them by the term “Pastor _____”, I personally have no problem with them doing so. If they expect to be called “Pastor ______”, then I have a problem with that.

I never understood why others, when they refer to themselves, call themselves “Brother ______”. One Brother several years ago called when we were gone and on our voice mail said, “This is Brother _____ calling.” No, it’s “______”, as ‘Brother’ is not part of your birth name.

 

[MattforJesus]

All are

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

My denomination has roots in the Azusa Street movement -- our leaders are supposed to strive to let themselves be led by the Holy Spirit -- and yet we have many preachers who don't seem to have been chosen by God.

In my denomination ministers are not salaried and don't receive gifts -- all of them have secular jobs, are self employed or are retired -- and yet some brothers are even willing to sell their moms to win a position as a preacher.

I can exercise no influence over the selection of ministers, but thank God I have freedom to read the Bible and to bent my knees before His holy throne and ask Him to teach me how to subject myself to His will.

The problem is that man is subject to his own vain imagination. It probably took me decades to get past the idea that God was going to use me for some fantastic ministry, and I am sure that there are plenty of other vain men out there who actually made it into ministry of some sort, but aren't called to it.

I would say the worst are the ones calling themselves apostles or prophets though.

 

[MattforJesus]

All are commanded to preach the Gospel of Christ, and to teach people the truth of the word of God, and to be witnesses, and live Christlike as a witness to how being a Christian changes a person and to represent goodness regardless of the office they hold, which all the offices would do the same thing but some would reach out to more people, and to preach away from the homeland.

But the foundation and how they represent Christ and God is the same regardless if you are a preacher or a common pew sitter.

Which the Bible says that if any person asks for wisdom from God let them do it in faith, and God gives to all saints liberally nothing wavering, so a common pew sitter can know as much knowledge as the greatest preacher on earth for God does not give any person more knowledge than another if they seek it and want it for ask and you shall receive.

Since all people preach and teach the same regardless of office how does a person know if they are called of God for that office or not, because they believe God related it to them, or people confirmed it to them.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

The Bible says God gave the different offices to people for the perfecting of the saints and that they all believe the same things and not tossed to and fro with different doctrines, but we know there are different denominations that hold different beliefs.

So some must believe they are called of God but not, or are called by God but did not follow a Church that preaches the truth, or believed it was the people that determine whether they are to be a preacher coming from God like they cast lots to determine who would replace Judas but this was of God.

A lot of people are mistaken when they hold an office that God did not really call them which it would seem that way because of all the different denominations teaching different things.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Personally, I’ve never called anyone “Pastor ______”, just “Brother ______”. But if others call them by the term “Pastor _____”, I personally have no problem with them doing so. If they expect to be called “Pastor ______”, then I have a problem with that.

I never understood why others, when they refer to themselves, call themselves “Brother ______”. One Brother several years ago called when we were gone and on our voice mail said, “This is Brother _____ calling.” No, it’s “______”, as ‘Brother’ is not part of your birth name.

The thing I really don't like is when some guy who is questionable is called "Pastor" by my former pastor..in fact it was part of the reason why I left the church.

Particularly I'm talking about Mark Driscoll. You might know about his vulgar language concerning women and sexuality, and his claims regarding his "gift of discernment" where he saw incidences of prior sexual molestation on a mental "TV screen" when talking to lady church members.

Anyways, the pastor of the church I was attending used to call him "Pastor Mark". I tried to talk to the pastor a number of times about Mark Driscoll but he would walk away from me. I stayed there for five years but left recently due to distance and this issue, amongst others. He also liked James MacDonald, who was terminated for inappropriate behavior as well, but I don't really know that much about MacDonald's morality. I heard he hinted about having someone killed for saying something inappropriate about him, though.

Anyways I didn't care for Driscoll's legitimacy as a pastor being mentioned in the church congregation...Driscoll had been forced out by that time.