Are Women Not Allowed to Preach in Every Case?
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The reason people sometimes disagree on several aspects is because at the root of someone's doctrine, there is an error. The more foundation the error is, the more damaging and gangrenous the heresy spreads (2 Tim 2:17). Doctrine is like a tree. There are roots, branches and fruit. If you get a root doctrine wrong (deity of Christ, trinity, inspiration,....in this case, the consequences of the fall, etc), the branches and fruit will be rotten too. But if someone simply gets a fruit doctrine (e.g. baptism, church government, etc...these do much less damage to a person's faith, their witness too others and God's reputation.
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I'm sorry it doesn't make sense. Maybe I can clarify:
God gave authority and dominion to Adam. God gave Eve to Adam. They fell. Eve's desire changed in a way that is resistant to Adam's God-given authority as a man. One of the curses of the fall is that women's desire for authority is in conflict with God's design and purpose for the roles of men and women.
God gave authority and dominion to Adam. God gave Eve to Adam. They fell. Eve's desire changed in a way that is resistant to Adam's God-given authority as a man. One of the curses of the fall is that women's desire for authority is in conflict with God's design and purpose for the roles of men and women.
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The prohibition is specifically on a woman being an elder.
I don't think a woman can be a head pastor.
However, that doesn't prohibit women from having some leadership positions including teaching children or teenagers, and speaking to other women.
I don't think a woman should teach adolescent males or men in a formal sense, though. Obviously a mother is capable of instructing her children at some level regardless of age, and women exercise influence over the males in her life.
In other words, I am a compatibilist. I think women are better equipped for certain tasks, and men are better equipped for other tasks.
Additionally, I believe that denominations which allow women head pastors have traditionally become liberal and permissive of homosexuality, too.
I don't think a woman can be a head pastor.
However, that doesn't prohibit women from having some leadership positions including teaching children or teenagers, and speaking to other women.
I don't think a woman should teach adolescent males or men in a formal sense, though. Obviously a mother is capable of instructing her children at some level regardless of age, and women exercise influence over the males in her life.
In other words, I am a compatibilist. I think women are better equipped for certain tasks, and men are better equipped for other tasks.
Additionally, I believe that denominations which allow women head pastors have traditionally become liberal and permissive of homosexuality, too.
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By the way. women have played significant roles in cults and aberrant world religions.
I would point to Mohammed's wife, which convinced him he was a prophet.
And, the Seventh Day Adventist church, which allows abortions within its' membership, whose leadership involved Ellen G. White, a woman whose visions led their church for many years.
And, the Armstrongite cult, in which Herbert Armstrong's wife received a vision that influenced Herbert Armstrong to make his false claims that God called him to restore the "true church".
If a cult is dominated by a woman, I would consider this. Women are apparently more easily to be misled into heresy according to Scripture.
1 Tim 2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Y et she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
I would point to Mohammed's wife, which convinced him he was a prophet.
And, the Seventh Day Adventist church, which allows abortions within its' membership, whose leadership involved Ellen G. White, a woman whose visions led their church for many years.
And, the Armstrongite cult, in which Herbert Armstrong's wife received a vision that influenced Herbert Armstrong to make his false claims that God called him to restore the "true church".
If a cult is dominated by a woman, I would consider this. Women are apparently more easily to be misled into heresy according to Scripture.
1 Tim 2: 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15Y et she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
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SOME men (and the women who cater to them) like to quote scriptures about Jezebel and Athaliah to shame and reprimand women. There names have been mentioned multiple times in this thread. It’s like some people conveniently forget that there is a whole dirty laundry list of evil, rebellious kings (men) in the Bible. Evil kings (men) who rebelled against God and led those under their authority (wives, children, the entire nation) astray. THERE ARE MORE EVIL KINGS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE THAN EVIL QUEENS. In fact, most of the kings of Israel were evil.
God promised King Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, a kingdom if he would trust the LORD, but Jeroboam didn't believe God would deliver on his promise. In order to achieve security, he abolished the national worship of the LORD and inaugurated calf worship. Jeroboam led the children of Israel into sin against God (1 Ki 11:25 - 14:20; 2 Ch 10:1 - 13:20). Jeroboam became the prototype of an evil king. Several kings who ruled after him followed his example and continued to lead the children of Israel into sin:
Jeroboam's son Nadab reigned over Israel for two years, practicing what the LORD considered to be evil, living the way his father did, committing sins, and leading Israel to sin (1 Ki 15:25-26).
Later, a message came from the LORD to Hanani's son Jehu. It was directed to rebuke Baasha, and this is what it said: I raised you from the dirt to become Commander-in-Chief over my people Israel, but you've been living like Jeroboam, you've been leading my people Israel into sin, and you've been provoking me to anger with their sins (1 Ki 16:2).
When Zimri observed that the city had been captured, he retreated into the king's palace, set fire to the citadel, and died when the palace burned down around him because of the sins that he committed by doing what the LORD considered to be evil, living like Jeroboam did, and sinning so as to lead Israel into sin (1 Kings 16:18).
Omri practiced what the LORD considered to be evil, doing far more evil than anyone who had reigned before him. He lived just like Nebat's son Jeroboam, and by his sin he led Israel into sin, provoking the LORD God of Israel with their idolatry (1 Ki 16:25).
Ahab asked Elijah, "So you've found me, my enemy?" Elijah answered, "I found you. Because you sold yourself to do what the LORD considers evil. 21So I am going to bring evil on you. I will destroy your descendants. I will destroy every male in Ahab's [house], whether slave or freeman in Israel. 22 I will make your family like the family of Jeroboam (Nebat's son) and like the house of Baasha, son of Ahijah, because you made me furious. You led Israel to sin." (1 Ki 21:20-22)
Ahab's son Ahaziah became king over Israel ... He reigned for two years over Israel. He practiced what the Lord considered to be evil by living life like his father and mother did. He lived like Nebat's son Jeroboam, who led Israel into sin (1 Ki 22:51).
Jehoahaz son of Jehu reigned in Samaria seventeen years. 2 But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He followed the example of Jeroboam son of Nebat, continuing the sins that Jeroboam had led Israel to commit. 3 So the LORD was very angry with Israel, and he allowed King Hazael of Aram and his son Ben-hadad to defeat them repeatedly (2 Ki 13:1-3).
Jehoash reigned in Samaria sixteen years. 11But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 13:10-11).
Jeroboam II reigned in Samaria forty-one years. 24He did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 14:23-24).
Zechariah son of Jeroboam II began to rule over Israel... He reigned in Samaria six months. Zechariah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight, as his ancestors had done. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:8-9).
Menahem son of Gadi began to rule over Israel... He reigned in Samaria ten years. 18 But Menahem did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. During his entire reign, he refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:17-18).
Pekahiah reigned in Samaria two years. 24But Pekahiah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:23-24).
Pekah reigned in Samaria twenty years. 28But Pekah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:27-28).
Amon reigned two years in Jerusalem. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, as his father Manasseh did. And he walked in all the way that his father walked in, and served the idols that his father served, and worshipped them:And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord. 2 Ki 21:19-22
Jehoiakim reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his fathers had done. 2 Kings 23:36-37
Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. He did evil in the eyes of the Lord 2 Ki 24:18-19
Jezebel and Athaliah were absolutely wrong for their rebellion. Likewise, the numerous evil kings listed in scripture were also absolutely wrong for their rebellion against God and for leading those under their authority (wives, children, the entire nation of Israel) into sin and idolatry.
Most likely, you will not hear men who eagerly use Jezebel and Athaliah to shame and reprimand the female gender quoting scriptures about the wickedness of the evil, rebellious kings of Israel and how they abused their power and mislead those under their authority: wives, children and the entire nation.
As far shame goes, there is plenty shame to go around. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). ALL includes men. Let's not pretend like men automatically provide Godly, quality leadership in the home, church or community. That's not what we see in scripture (or global news). Scripture is full of sinful, wicked and ineffective male leaders.
God promised King Jeroboam, the son of Nebat, a kingdom if he would trust the LORD, but Jeroboam didn't believe God would deliver on his promise. In order to achieve security, he abolished the national worship of the LORD and inaugurated calf worship. Jeroboam led the children of Israel into sin against God (1 Ki 11:25 - 14:20; 2 Ch 10:1 - 13:20). Jeroboam became the prototype of an evil king. Several kings who ruled after him followed his example and continued to lead the children of Israel into sin:
Jeroboam's son Nadab reigned over Israel for two years, practicing what the LORD considered to be evil, living the way his father did, committing sins, and leading Israel to sin (1 Ki 15:25-26).
Later, a message came from the LORD to Hanani's son Jehu. It was directed to rebuke Baasha, and this is what it said: I raised you from the dirt to become Commander-in-Chief over my people Israel, but you've been living like Jeroboam, you've been leading my people Israel into sin, and you've been provoking me to anger with their sins (1 Ki 16:2).
When Zimri observed that the city had been captured, he retreated into the king's palace, set fire to the citadel, and died when the palace burned down around him because of the sins that he committed by doing what the LORD considered to be evil, living like Jeroboam did, and sinning so as to lead Israel into sin (1 Kings 16:18).
Omri practiced what the LORD considered to be evil, doing far more evil than anyone who had reigned before him. He lived just like Nebat's son Jeroboam, and by his sin he led Israel into sin, provoking the LORD God of Israel with their idolatry (1 Ki 16:25).
Ahab asked Elijah, "So you've found me, my enemy?" Elijah answered, "I found you. Because you sold yourself to do what the LORD considers evil. 21So I am going to bring evil on you. I will destroy your descendants. I will destroy every male in Ahab's [house], whether slave or freeman in Israel. 22 I will make your family like the family of Jeroboam (Nebat's son) and like the house of Baasha, son of Ahijah, because you made me furious. You led Israel to sin." (1 Ki 21:20-22)
Ahab's son Ahaziah became king over Israel ... He reigned for two years over Israel. He practiced what the Lord considered to be evil by living life like his father and mother did. He lived like Nebat's son Jeroboam, who led Israel into sin (1 Ki 22:51).
Jehoahaz son of Jehu reigned in Samaria seventeen years. 2 But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He followed the example of Jeroboam son of Nebat, continuing the sins that Jeroboam had led Israel to commit. 3 So the LORD was very angry with Israel, and he allowed King Hazael of Aram and his son Ben-hadad to defeat them repeatedly (2 Ki 13:1-3).
Jehoash reigned in Samaria sixteen years. 11But he did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 13:10-11).
Jeroboam II reigned in Samaria forty-one years. 24He did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Ki 14:23-24).
Zechariah son of Jeroboam II began to rule over Israel... He reigned in Samaria six months. Zechariah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight, as his ancestors had done. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:8-9).
Menahem son of Gadi began to rule over Israel... He reigned in Samaria ten years. 18 But Menahem did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. During his entire reign, he refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:17-18).
Pekahiah reigned in Samaria two years. 24But Pekahiah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:23-24).
Pekah reigned in Samaria twenty years. 28But Pekah did what was evil in the LORD’s sight. He refused to turn from the sins that Jeroboam son of Nebat had led Israel to commit (2 Kings 15:27-28).
Amon reigned two years in Jerusalem. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, as his father Manasseh did. And he walked in all the way that his father walked in, and served the idols that his father served, and worshipped them:And he forsook the Lord God of his fathers, and walked not in the way of the Lord. 2 Ki 21:19-22
Jehoiakim reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord, according to all that his fathers had done. 2 Kings 23:36-37
Zedekiah reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. He did evil in the eyes of the Lord 2 Ki 24:18-19
Jezebel and Athaliah were absolutely wrong for their rebellion. Likewise, the numerous evil kings listed in scripture were also absolutely wrong for their rebellion against God and for leading those under their authority (wives, children, the entire nation of Israel) into sin and idolatry.
Most likely, you will not hear men who eagerly use Jezebel and Athaliah to shame and reprimand the female gender quoting scriptures about the wickedness of the evil, rebellious kings of Israel and how they abused their power and mislead those under their authority: wives, children and the entire nation.
As far shame goes, there is plenty shame to go around. ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). ALL includes men. Let's not pretend like men automatically provide Godly, quality leadership in the home, church or community. That's not what we see in scripture (or global news). Scripture is full of sinful, wicked and ineffective male leaders.
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You are correct . There seems to be plenty of women preachers , go to their church .. I wouldn't care at all except what Paul said ..
I'm a conservative and like being free .. When I was young I could pull the wool over my mothers eyes and if she did hit me with a broom or something it was so funny I couldn't help but laugh .. My dad , I couldn't pull no wool over his eyes and he hit like a freight train .. When he spoke, he didn't have to speak twice .. One day my dad told me to take the trash out and I said ''it's raining'' , he said ''do it now and run around the house until I say stop'' LOLOL .. Same thing with my sons , my wife would argue with them but when I said something I never had to say it twice .. Today's generation is waxing worse imo .. I coached for 16 yrs and it wasn't only to teach ''ball skills'' , it was to teach the young men how to act and think like a man, many only had mothers ..
I taught Jesus first, how to act and react in different situations, how to show respect , how to win and why you play to win, how and why we follow instructions and how each person on the team is valuable and above all how to have fun and fellowship , and even when it's time to fight, I never coached a kid I didn't love and regard as my son .. I had one girl placed on my 9-10 yr old team and I resented it, we had a girls softball league but mommy and daddy thought it would be ''cute'' if she played on a boys team .. IMO she was taking the place of a young boy that needed attention from a Christian male role model and was he allowed to play on the girls teams ?
I'm a conservative and like being free .. When I was young I could pull the wool over my mothers eyes and if she did hit me with a broom or something it was so funny I couldn't help but laugh .. My dad , I couldn't pull no wool over his eyes and he hit like a freight train .. When he spoke, he didn't have to speak twice .. One day my dad told me to take the trash out and I said ''it's raining'' , he said ''do it now and run around the house until I say stop'' LOLOL .. Same thing with my sons , my wife would argue with them but when I said something I never had to say it twice .. Today's generation is waxing worse imo .. I coached for 16 yrs and it wasn't only to teach ''ball skills'' , it was to teach the young men how to act and think like a man, many only had mothers ..
I taught Jesus first, how to act and react in different situations, how to show respect , how to win and why you play to win, how and why we follow instructions and how each person on the team is valuable and above all how to have fun and fellowship , and even when it's time to fight, I never coached a kid I didn't love and regard as my son .. I had one girl placed on my 9-10 yr old team and I resented it, we had a girls softball league but mommy and daddy thought it would be ''cute'' if she played on a boys team .. IMO she was taking the place of a young boy that needed attention from a Christian male role model and was he allowed to play on the girls teams ?
The authority/headship/covering of man over all things (especially in marriage) is a mirror of the headship of God.
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. (1 Cor 11:3).
The order of creation and gender roles are pre-law and pre-fall because they are rooted in the character of God Himself. Man and women are equal in essence, but different in responsibility......just as Christ is is equal to the Father yet submits to Him.....just as the Church are co-heirs with Christ, yet they serve Him.
There is submission even within the Godhead, most people don't see that. All 3 members of the Trinity work together and in unison. e.g. Ephesians ch 1: The Father planned the Church (vs 3, 5), the Son payed for the Church (vs 7) and the Spirit protects the Church (vs 13-14). He wants us to know our role and participate in His wonderful plan.
When giving the reason for "not allowing women to teach or exercise authority over a man", Paul says the reason is because Adam was created "first". By stating in 1 Timothy 2:13 that Adam was created first, Paul means that in the creation design of male and female Adam, the male, was first among equals. God uniquely designed the man, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, to be head of the relationship and the woman to complement his headship position. It is profoundly significant that God did not create Adam and Eve at the same time. Instead, woman was made after the man, from the man, for the man, brought to the man, and named by the man (Gen. 2:20–23; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8, 9). So......the bottom line is therefore:
Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church.
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. (1 Cor 11:3).
The order of creation and gender roles are pre-law and pre-fall because they are rooted in the character of God Himself. Man and women are equal in essence, but different in responsibility......just as Christ is is equal to the Father yet submits to Him.....just as the Church are co-heirs with Christ, yet they serve Him.
There is submission even within the Godhead, most people don't see that. All 3 members of the Trinity work together and in unison. e.g. Ephesians ch 1: The Father planned the Church (vs 3, 5), the Son payed for the Church (vs 7) and the Spirit protects the Church (vs 13-14). He wants us to know our role and participate in His wonderful plan.
When giving the reason for "not allowing women to teach or exercise authority over a man", Paul says the reason is because Adam was created "first". By stating in 1 Timothy 2:13 that Adam was created first, Paul means that in the creation design of male and female Adam, the male, was first among equals. God uniquely designed the man, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, to be head of the relationship and the woman to complement his headship position. It is profoundly significant that God did not create Adam and Eve at the same time. Instead, woman was made after the man, from the man, for the man, brought to the man, and named by the man (Gen. 2:20–23; cf. 1 Cor. 11:8, 9). So......the bottom line is therefore:
Since 1 Timothy 5:17 states that elders lead and teach the church and since women are not to teach or lead men, it follows, therefore, that women cannot be elders in the church.
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