Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus paid for the sins of His elect on the cross, not in eternity past as you suggest.

He paid for all sins on the cross.

But he chose to save those who who recieve his gift before time began

 

[Aaron56]

Jesus paid for the sins of His elect on the cross, not in eternity past as you suggest.

In eternity past, God the Father chose (elected) a specific people to save within the pactum salutis (the Covenant of Redemption). The Trinity planned the rescue, but no actual payment, legal substitution, or suffering occurred before history began.

Eternity past involved the design and intention to save, whereas the cross involved the actual execution and accomplishment of that salvation. The actual legal satisfaction, propitiation, and bearing of divine wrath happened exclusively during the physical and spiritual suffering of Christ on the cross.

When Jesus cried out, "It is finished" (tetelestai), meaning the actual debt was paid in full in linear time at Calvary, securing definite redemption for the elect. While the payment was accomplished historically on the cross, it is experientially applied to individual believers in time by the Holy Spirit through faith.

Your view that Adam didn't die (spiritually or bodily) in the day he sinned, contradicts what Gods word reveals about the matter.

There is no such thing as "eternity past". Both are true: the price for sins was paid in eternity and about 2000 years ago. If not, then by what administration could Jesus forgive sins before His death and resurrection? He COULD forgive the sins of others because He was the ladder connecting both eternity and time and space.

Any way, if you want to know more just hit me up.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The reason we rarely mention Eve, is because she is not the Federal Head of Mankind. Adam is our Federal Head, Eve is not his equal because she came from Adam. God didn't approach Eve to ask her what is this you have done.

Agree Eve came from Adam.

Do not agree "God didn't approach Eve to ask her what is this you have done" ...

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done?

The Serpent knew He couldn't deceive Adam, so He went after the weaker vessel and deceived her and then caused her to convince Adam.

totally agree "the serpent knew he couldn't deceive Adam, so he went after the weaker vessel and deceived her".

Genesis 3:6 says Eve "gave also unto her husband" ... just not sure how that translates into the serpent "then caused her to convince Adam".

This is not to say that Adam was less guilty of rebellion, but it is to say that He represents Mankind and not Eve.

Yes, sin [Greek = hamartia] entered the world through Adam ... Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... when Adam sinned, the whole creation was affected ... all of creation groans and travails waiting to be delivered from the bondage of corruption.

Eve was deceived and she transgressed ... 1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression [from Greek = parabasis = overstepping, a stepping over the line].

We inherited Adams sin nature, he was a sinner until the day he died. Yes he repented, but he still had to live out his life in his corrupted body.

Adams son did not bare the image of God, in the same way Adam did before it was marred. Genesis 5:3 "And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. The rest of humanity was bares Adams image as well." We are all born dead in our sin".

yes ... agree ... all descendants of Adam are begotten in the likeness and image of their parents.

Praise God for the new creation ... 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

.

 

[awelight]

I am a synergist but certainly take no glory to myself in regard to my salvation.

Synergism = Attempted theft of God's glory. How you might say? Let's examine this issue.

In general, it does this by attributing salvation to human cooperation, rather divine grace alone. In this theological view, God does part of the work of salvation, but mankind must also contribute by mustering faith, and being baptized. Thus, salvation begins to teeter upon "works" salvation, which is expressly forbidden in the Bible.

Here are some other details on how the synergistic view takes glory from God:

• It implies that God is necessary but insufficient to save, placing the final responsibility for salvation on human choice. This also, degrades the efficacy of Jesus Christ's sacrifice because He fails to save all those He died for. One person choosing not to believe in Jesus, renders His sacrifice, for that person, useless.
• It suggests that human merit or action plays a role in receiving salvation, which destroys the concept of grace as an unearned gift. Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
• It allows individuals to boast in their own redemption, claiming credit for their ability to choose God, rather than ascribing all glory to God’s sovereign initiative. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that is willing, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.

A quote from the Book of Concord (1580AD) -
The burden of both, Majorism and Synergism, was the denial of the sola gratia. Both coordinated man and God as the causes of our salvation. Indeed, consistently carried out, both destroyed the central Christian truth of justification by grace alone and, with it, the assurance of a gracious God and of eternal salvation-the supreme religious concern of [Martin] Luther and the entire Lutheran theology.

 

[Aussie52]

Synergism = Attempted theft of God's glory. How you might say? Let's examine this issue.

In general, it does this by attributing salvation to human cooperation, rather divine grace alone. In this theological view, God does part of the work of salvation, but mankind must also contribute by mustering faith, and being baptized. Thus, salvation begins to teeter upon "works" salvation, which is expressly forbidden in the Bible.

Here are some other details on how the synergistic view takes glory from God:

• It implies that God is necessary but insufficient to save, placing the final responsibility for salvation on human choice. This also, degrades the efficacy of Jesus Christ's sacrifice because He fails to save all those He died for. One person choosing not to believe in Jesus, renders His sacrifice, for that person, useless.
• It suggests that human merit or action plays a role in receiving salvation, which destroys the concept of grace as an unearned gift. Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
• It allows individuals to boast in their own redemption, claiming credit for their ability to choose God, rather than ascribing all glory to God’s sovereign initiative. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that is willing, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.

A quote from the Book of Concord (1580AD) -
The burden of both, Majorism and Synergism, was the denial of the sola gratia. Both coordinated man and God as the causes of our salvation. Indeed, consistently carried out, both destroyed the central Christian truth of justification by grace alone and, with it, the assurance of a gracious God and of eternal salvation-the supreme religious concern of [Martin] Luther and the entire Lutheran theology.

Build a strawman and knock him down.

 

[Lovette]

If a person rejects both Calvinism and Arminianism, then they typically hold to a form of synergism (salvation dependent on human cooperation) or a non-Reformed evangelicalism (such as Provisionism, traditional Wesleyanism, or general nondenominationalism).

Calvinism and Arminianism are the two primary historical systems defining how divine grace and human will interact, meaning a rejection of both places someone in a philosophically inconsistent middle ground.

Provisionism emphasizes that Christ died for everyone equally, God desires all to be saved without exception, and humans retain the absolute libertarian ability to accept or resist grace without prior unilateral regeneration. Lay Christians often reject the "labels" of Calvinism and Arminianism while still practically operating on Arminian assumptions—believing human choice is the ultimate deciding factor in salvation.

Salvation must either be initiated and secured unconditionally by God (Calvinism) or left up to the final decision of human free will (Arminianism). Stepping outside these systems usually means either sliding into human autonomy (making man the ultimate savior of his own soul) or misrepresenting God's holy character by misconstruing scriptural election.

There is no third option between monergism and synergism regarding the initial new birth or regeneration. Salvation's starting point is strictly monergistic—God works alone to make a spiritually dead sinner alive. Human will contributes nothing to this initial act.

All I know is the core mechanism - the Father is revealed through the Son, the Son is the bridge across the chasm of sin, and He is revealed through the Spirit. All these labels are unnecessary complications, the term for that is "circumlocution".

 

[awelight]

Just because YOU cannot envision what I and billions believe....has no merit upon my belief.

"Billions" believe?????? Are you including all 6,000 years in this number. Surely, you don't believe there are "billions" of saved people in the world right now, when only eight were saved before the great flood?

And I read scriptures using full hermeneutics....not partial or flat reading when its convenient for my particular preferred theology.

Within scripture there is an Author who had thoughts, ideas, and concepts he AND the Holy Spirit wished to convey.
Then theres a targeted, time sensitive, audience that the writing was sent to. The fact that this writing was going to exist for well over 2,000 years was not unknown to the Holy Spirit....but was to the guy with the pen in his hand.

As such, plainly written stories speaking to this particular matter were included in the Gospel Accounts as this very subject had been hotly debated in Bethmidrash for hundreds of years already with no decided winner. When the Apostles asked the opening question for this debate ( not in a hostile fashion as the woman at the well asked her theological question) while walking along.....
The question is "Who sinned to cause this man to be born blind?"
AND
Since you do not understand the question....
The answer given by Jesus escapes you doubly so.
FURTHERMORE
You massively miss the moralistic answer that John wants you to notice even more so than Jesus's glib answer.

Jesus' "glib answer"??? Do you know the meaning of the word "glib"? It's primary meaning is: said or done offhand and especially with inadequate attention or concern. Are you suggesting that our Lord, the God-man, said something offhand or with inadequate concern? I think not.

So....two massive and PRINCIPLE principals that you are supposed to hold dear as a Christian and you have blown off both as irrelevant.

So obviously you need an elementary lesson of Christianity 101-(a)

There are these two commandments we are to follow:

1) Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
2) Love your neighbor at least as much as you do yourself.

Meaning.....
When Jesus God says something....you listen as if your life depends upon it....because it does. He doesnt speak idly.

Now this I completely agree with - when you say: When Jesus God says something....you listen as if your life depends upon it....because it does. He doesnt speak idly.

And you do not try to cause arguments among fellow Christians you dont know or think about because you are bored, lonely or feeling superior over. They are your most valuable irreplaceable resource in the world.

Now you do not know me....or what I believe as evidenced by your post. And I'm a LOT older than you.
My advice; stop treating people as underlings and value your relationships more. In the end nothing you know matters, only the people you love and who loved you mattered whatsoever. Any other prize was not worth having.

These last two sentences need a lot of clarification. Nothing matters, except those you love and those who love you? No other prize is worth having? There is a lot of theological error in those statements. As written, it would appear you are not loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

I hope you can enlighten me as to where you were going with these items.

 

[awelight]

Build a strawman and knock him down.

Your response sir, is non sequitur.

 

[Aussie52]

Your response sir, is non sequitur.

And you have not really answered my response.

 

[DavidLamb]

He paid for all sins on the cross.

But he chose to save those who who recieve his gift before time began

So, a double payment must, in that case, be made for the sins of the unsaved. The unsaved themselves must pay for their own sins, and you say that Jesus paid for them on the cross.

He Himself said that He laid down His life for the sheep, yet He also told some of His hearers that they were not His sheep:

NKJV Jhn 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

I think Augustus Toplady expressed it well in his hymn, "From Whence this Fear and Unbelief?", which includes these two verses:

Complete atonement thou hast made
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

If thou hast my discharge procured
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand
And then again at mine.

 

[Aussie52]

So, a double payment must, in that case, be made for the sins of the unsaved. The unsaved themselves must pay for their own sins, and you say that Jesus paid for them on the cross.

He Himself said that He laid down His life for the sheep, yet He also told some of His hearers that they were not His sheep:

NKJV Jhn 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

I think Augustus Toplady expressed it well in his hymn, "From Whence this Fear and Unbelief?", which includes these two verses:

Complete atonement thou hast made
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

If thou hast my discharge procured
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand
And then again at mine.

Hi David,
I would say that Christ died provisionally for the sins all but effectively only to those who respond in faith.

 

[PaulThomson]

There are no contradictions in the Bible, so your interpretation of Romans 9:13 doesn't make sense.

@Journey-man, there are no contradictions in the Bible, so your interpretation of Romans 9:13 doesn't make sense.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So, a double payment must, in that case, be made for the sins of the unsaved.

why would you say this? I will be honest brother. this makes no sense at all

The unsaved themselves must pay for their own sins, and you say that Jesus paid for them on the cross.

Again, where are you getting this from?

He Himself said that He laid down His life for the sheep, yet He also told some of His hearers that they were not His sheep:

Yes.. and?

NKJV Jhn 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

I think Augustus Toplady expressed it well in his hymn, "From Whence this Fear and Unbelief?", which includes these two verses:

Complete atonement thou hast made
And to the utmost farthing paid,
Whate'er thy people owed;
How then can wrath on me take place
If sheltered in thy righteousness,
And sprinkled with thy blood?

If thou hast my discharge procured
And freely in my place endured
The whole of wrath divine,
Payment God cannot twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand
And then again at mine.

The unbeliever remains dead in sin because of unbelief.

Because they do not believe. they continue in sin.

because they do not believe they are condemned, Remain in adam, Have rejected that which could have saved them, Many fall from Grace having knowledge but never recieving it.

God does not have to pay for them twice. They just have to recieve his gift of salvation that he paid in full.

Or continue in unbelief, and suffer the condemnation for all who believe


in the words of Jesus.. He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

that is what seperates the two parties..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Synergism = Attempted theft of God's glory. How you might say? Let's examine this issue.

In general, it does this by attributing salvation to human cooperation, rather divine grace alone. In this theological view, God does part of the work of salvation, but mankind must also contribute by mustering faith, and being baptized. Thus, salvation begins to teeter upon "works" salvation, which is expressly forbidden in the Bible.

Here are some other details on how the synergistic view takes glory from God:

• It implies that God is necessary but insufficient to save, placing the final responsibility for salvation on human choice. This also, degrades the efficacy of Jesus Christ's sacrifice because He fails to save all those He died for. One person choosing not to believe in Jesus, renders His sacrifice, for that person, useless.
• It suggests that human merit or action plays a role in receiving salvation, which destroys the concept of grace as an unearned gift. Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
• It allows individuals to boast in their own redemption, claiming credit for their ability to choose God, rather than ascribing all glory to God’s sovereign initiative. Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that is willing, nor of him that is running, but of God that hath mercy.

A quote from the Book of Concord (1580AD) -
The burden of both, Majorism and Synergism, was the denial of the sola gratia. Both coordinated man and God as the causes of our salvation. Indeed, consistently carried out, both destroyed the central Christian truth of justification by grace alone and, with it, the assurance of a gracious God and of eternal salvation-the supreme religious concern of [Martin] Luther and the entire Lutheran theology.

we are saved by grace THROUGH faith.

not sure where the baptism comes in. But those who recieve the gift of eternal life based on the redemption in CHrist Jesus are saved.

The calvinist calls this synergism

yet no one can take credit for saving themselves. All the glory and credit goes to God. who saved them

 

[DavidLamb]

why would you say this? I will be honest brother. this makes no sense at all

Sorry I wasn't sufficiently clear. I will try again. Our sin makes us debtors to God. God rightly demands payment of that debt. Left to ourselves, we have to pay the debt ourselves, through everlasting punishment in hell. But Jesus took that punishment on Himself, on behalf of those who would believe on Him. As Peter wrote:

NKJV 1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Now, if, as you say, Jesus paid for everybody's sins on the cross, in other words, He was punished for their sins, and those who remain in unbelief are also punished for their sins in hell, then unbelievers' sins are being paid for/punished twice.

Again, where are you getting this from?

Paul makes clear that the wages of sin is death:

NKJV Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes.. and?

Well, if they weren't His sheep, and He didn't die for them, how can it be true that Jesus died for everybody's sins?

The unbeliever remains dead in sin because of unbelief.

Because they do not believe. they continue in sin.

And that very unbelief is a sin.

because they do not believe they are condemned, Remain in adam, Have rejected that which could have saved them, Many fall from Grace having knowledge but never recieving it.

God does not have to pay for them twice. They just have to recieve his gift of salvation that he paid in full.

But If Jesus paid for everybody's sins in full, why is not everybody saved and going to heaven? If you say, "Because of their unbelief," I ask, "Is unbelief a sin?"

Or continue in unbelief, and suffer the condemnation for all who believe

I think you meant "....suffer the condemnation for all who refuse to believe."

in the words of Jesus.. He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

that is what seperates the two parties..

I agree with that.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sorry I wasn't sufficiently clear. I will try again. Our sin makes us debtors to God. God rightly demands payment of that debt. Left to ourselves, we have to pay the debt ourselves, through everlasting punishment in hell. But Jesus took that punishment on Himself, on behalf of those who would believe on Him. As Peter wrote:

NKJV 1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Now, if, as you say, Jesus paid for everybody's sins on the cross, in other words, He was punished for their sins, and those who remain in unbelief are also punished for their sins in hell, then unbelievers' sins are being paid for/punished twice.

once again, they are condemned to hell because of unbelief.

and if being in hell could pay for their sin. then eventually they could get out. because they paid for their own sin.. (as some people say, which I do not agree with )

Paul makes clear that the wages of sin is death:

NKJV Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes. the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is live (eternal)

The gift is offered to all. as the gift of life was offered to those in moses day via the bronze serpent. the son of man offers the gift of live to everyone.

Only those who recieve it in faith are given life.

the others in unbelief reject that gift.

Well, if they weren't His sheep, and He didn't die for them, how can it be true that Jesus died for everybody's sins?

He died for his sheep. who are his sheep. those who believe.

It does not say he did not die for the lost. He said they did not believe.

if they believed, they would have recieved his gift.

And that very unbelief is a sin.

Yes. the one sin jesus did not die for.

But If Jesus paid for everybody's sins in full, why is not everybody saved and going to heaven?

Because he did not die for unbelief.

He will not force you to recieve his gift.

If you say, "Because of their unbelief," I ask, "Is unbelief a sin?"

Yes. the unforgivable sin

again, who is condemned? those who do not believe.

we all have sinned. so we all are under adam.

Christ offers us the change to repent and come under him. its up to us to believe, or reject in unbelief

again, he who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

you and I were both in a condemned state until we believed Even though Jesus paid our sin debt 2000 years ago.

once we recieved his gift of life in faith. we were changed from a state of being condemned to a state of being not condemned

why? we recieved the gift of life

I think you meant "....suffer the condemnation for all who refuse to believe."

I agree with that.

 

[DavidLamb]

once again, they are condemned to hell because of unbelief.

and if being in hell could pay for their sin. then eventually they could get out. because they paid for their own sin.. (as some people say, which I do not agree with )

Yes. the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is live (eternal)

The gift is offered to all. as the gift of life was offered to those in moses day via the bronze serpent. the son of man offers the gift of live to everyone.

Only those who recieve it in faith are given life.

the others in unbelief reject that gift.



He died for his sheep. who are his sheep. those who believe.

It does not say he did not die for the lost. He said they did not believe.

if they believed, they would have recieved his gift.

Yes. the one sin jesus did not die for.

Because he did not die for unbelief.

He will not force you to recieve his gift.



Yes. the unforgivable sin

again, who is condemned? those who do not believe.

we all have sinned. so we all are under adam.

Christ offers us the change to repent and come under him. its up to us to believe, or reject in unbelief

again, he who believes is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already.

you and I were both in a condemned state until we believed Even though Jesus paid our sin debt 2000 years ago.

once we recieved his gift of life in faith. we were changed from a state of being condemned to a state of being not condemned

why? we recieved the gift of life

I don't think we will come to agreement on this. I would just say that unbelief is not the unforgivable sin. If it was, nobody could be saved, because before we were converted, we were all unbelievers. The unforgivable sin, according to Jesus, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

NKJV Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

I'll leave it there. Thanks for the discussion. God bless!

 

[Journey_man]

no bias here

Actually there was no calvin or arminian belief by name until fter the reformation. Thay are two beliefs of many who came as a result of that reformation.

The scripture defines how grace interacts.. While some "isms" may try to explain it. we should not look to an ISM to get our doctrines..

Monergism according to the calvinist view is in error. They have God making a person alive while still dead in sin.

Synergism is also in error. As we can not earn salvation so we can not lose salvation.

The truth is in the middle. we have been saved by grace through faith

God does not force us to recieve it, But he will not keep us from being able to accept it.

we must recieve it in faith

that is no cooperating. That is a person on his knees like the tax collector crying out to God in faith for Gods mercy and forgiveness.

It is through that faith he is saved (born again)

Your "middle ground truth", puts you squarely in the Arminian camp.

Salvation either depends completely on God or partly on human choice, leaving you with no middle ground option.

You need to ask yourself, what causes a dead sinner to first believe in Jesus. Does God make the final difference, or does the human free will make that final choice. You cannot divide this choice. Either God creates the faith, or the human adds it to complete God's work.

The Bible teaches that God works alone to give spiritual life, because people are dead in sin. Your Arminian Denomination teaches that God and humans work together to make salvation happen. Your hybrid system always slips you into Arminianism, which teaches that human choice breaks the tie.

Who gets "on their knees and cries out to God for forgiveness". The answer is, "only those who have been given the gift of grace and the gift of faith", only they believe and repent. Those who don't receive these gifts from God, never get on their knees. The run from the light, just like cockroaches scatter when the light is turned on.

 

[JohnDB]

"Billions" believe?????? Are you including all 6,000 years in this number. Surely, you don't believe there are "billions" of saved people in the world right now, when only eight were saved before the great flood?



Jesus' "glib answer"??? Do you know the meaning of the word "glib"? It's primary meaning is: said or done offhand and especially with inadequate attention or concern. Are you suggesting that our Lord, the God-man, said something offhand or with inadequate concern? I think not.



Now this I completely agree with - when you say: When Jesus God says something....you listen as if your life depends upon it....because it does. He doesnt speak idly.


These last two sentences need a lot of clarification. Nothing matters, except those you love and those who love you? No other prize is worth having? There is a lot of theological error in those statements. As written, it would appear you are not loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

I hope you can enlighten me as to where you were going with these items.

Apparently you know everything and nothing will change your mind.....

See ya!

 

[Journey_man]

He paid for all sins on the cross.

But he chose to save those who who recieve his gift before time began

None of that is true. He did not "pay for all sins on the cross". The Bible doesn't teache any such thing.

He never "chose to save those who receive His gift before time began". The Bible doesn't teach any such thing.