Are you a monergist or a synergist?

[Everlasting-Grace]

I don't think we will come to agreement on this. I would just say that unbelief is not the unforgivable sin. If it was, nobody could be saved, because before we were converted, we were all unbelievers. The unforgivable sin, according to Jesus, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit:

when you die in a state of unbelief, you die having commited that sin.

NKJV Mat 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

I'll leave it there. Thanks for the discussion. God bless!

Yes.. the sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin, if you die in that state as Jesus said, you die in a condemned state

I agree however. I do not think we will agree.. God bless you brother

 

[DavidLamb]

when you die in a state of unbelief, you die having commited that sin.



Yes.. the sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin, if you die in that state as Jesus said, you die in a condemned state

Only if you die while still unbelieving. But the same is true of every sin. If you die while committing adultery, or while stealing, then unless you are a Christian, and the punishment for your sins has been taken by Christ, the adultery, stealing, or whatever will be unforgiven, not just the unbelief.

I agree however. I do not think we will agree.. God bless you brother

Thanks. It's good we can interact pleasantly, even though we don't agree n this matter.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Your "middle ground truth", puts you squarely in the Arminian camp.

lol.

Sorry brother. But this is just plain nonsense. and comes from a bias..

Salvation either depends completely on God or partly on human choice, leaving you with no middle ground option.

God is a soverign God he can do whatever he wants.

If he wants to offer you salvation, and have you recieve it he can

If he wants to offer you salvation and give you the opportunity to reject it. He can do that also

You need to ask yourself, what causes a dead sinner to first believe in Jesus. Does God make the final difference, or does the human free will make that final choice. You cannot divide this choice. Either God creates the faith, or the human adds it to complete God's work.

What causes a dead sinner to recieve Jesus is Jesus bringing them to their knees like he did the tax collector.

which means

1. I must stop denying him and making my own God to replace him
2. I must deny religion, and stop pumping my chest like a pharisee thinking I do not need him

But only God can bring us to the point we make this decision.

The Bible teaches that God works alone to give spiritual life, because people are dead in sin. Your Arminian Denomination teaches that God and humans work together to make salvation happen. Your hybrid system always slips you into Arminianism, which teaches that human choice breaks the tie.

Dude. if your going to falsly accuse me of being an arminian. we are finished. and I will report you for bearing false witness.

I reject both arminianism and do not even consider them my brothers.

I do not agreee with calvinism, but I do concider them my brother.

Who gets "on their knees and cries out to God for forgiveness". The answer is, "only those who have been given the gift of grace and the gift of faith", only they believe and repent. Those who don't receive these gifts from God, never get on their knees. The run from the light, just like cockroaches scatter when the light is turned on.

Who gets on their knees,

the tax collector who God brought to his knees

who does not

The pharisee who no matter what God does will never recieve him, or the so called athiest. again, who no matter what God does will never see or repent.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

None of that is true. He did not "pay for all sins on the cross". The Bible doesn't teache any such thing.

Actually yes it does.. But I am prety sure nothing will convince you of that. and thats fine..

He never "chose to save those who receive His gift before time began". The Bible doesn't teach any such thing.

lol. again, If you think so thats fine.

But I can not agree.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Only if you die while still unbelieving.

But as I see it, you do not just start unbelieving. You are born in a state of unbelief, and you have until you die to repent and come to a state of belief

He who does not believe is condemned already, because they never believed.. They died rejecting the only thing that could save them.

we have until the day we die or depart this earth to repent..

But the same is true of every sin. If you die while committing adultery, or while stealing, then unless you are a Christian, and the punishment for your sins has been taken by Christ, the adultery, stealing, or whatever will be unforgiven, not just the unbelief.

But as I see it, they are not condemned for those sins

they are condemned because they have not believed.

Thanks. It's good we can interact pleasantly, even though we don't agree n this matter.

Nothing like a pleasant discussion between brothers!!

 

[NightTwister]

God did not hate Esau before he was born. God hated Esau’s descendants because they had continually harassed Jacob’s descendants hoping to wipe them out. God said “Jacob I have loved but Esau I have hated” to Israel in the time of Malachi, not to Esau in Genesis.

Interesting idea, but it's not supported by the context of Romans 9.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Interesting idea, but it's not supported by the context of Romans 9.

Nice idea. But it is supported in Romans 9

Paul quoted OT scripture. Namely he quoted.

Malachi 1:2, 3
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord. “Yet Jacob I have loved;
3. But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”

The context is Israel and Edom.

It is not two kids before they are born.. You can not quote an OT passage out of context.

 

[Journey_man]

There is no such thing as "eternity past". Both are true: the price for sins was paid in eternity and about 2000 years ago. If not, then by what administration could Jesus forgive sins before His death and resurrection? He COULD forgive the sins of others because He was the ladder connecting both eternity and time and space.

Any way, if you want to know more just hit me up.

That's not true, nobody's sins were paid for until the cross. Believers from every age had the promise of redemption but it wasn't consummated until He finished His work on the cross.

When He told people, "your sins are forgiven". It was as good as done because the cross was 100% guaranteed to take place, from eternity past. God planned to sacrafice His Son to save His elect.

 

[NightTwister]

Nice idea. But it is supported in Romans 9

Paul quoted OT scripture. Namely he quoted.

Malachi 1:2, 3
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord. “Yet Jacob I have loved;
3. But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”

The context is Israel and Edom.

It is not two kids before they are born.. You can not quote an OT passage out of context.

Nice try, but Romans 9 is clear:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Nice try, but Romans 9 is clear:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

Actually Esau never served jacob while he was alive. A little study would show this.

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

As it is written in malichi

this is talking about two nations. The nation of Israel and the nation of Edom.

that is what romans 9 is about. did God make a mistake calling Israel out.

the answer is no.. He chose them before either child was born. and as far as the nations went, God loved one more than he loved the other. and the nation whcih came from the older child served the nation which came from the younger child

 

[PennEd]

That's not true, nobody's sins were paid for until the cross. Believers from every age had the promise of redemption but it wasn't consummated until He finished His work on the cross.

When He told people, "your sins are forgiven". It was as good as done because the cross was 100% guaranteed to take place, from eternity past. God planned to sacrafice His Son to save His elect.

Yes you are right.

Before Jesus Resurrection, all the Old Testament saints were kept in Sheol, referred in the New Testament as Hades.
There was a good side, and a suffering side. The suffering side remains to this day until the final judgement.

Those in the good side (Abraham’s bosom) were freed and went with Jesus to Heaven. Now, all saved saints are with Him immediately, but the unsaved continue to go to, and be held, in Hades.

 

[NightTwister]

Actually Esau never served jacob while he was alive. A little study would show this.




As it is written in malichi

this is talking about two nations. The nation of Israel and the nation of Edom.

that is what romans 9 is about. did God make a mistake calling Israel out.

the answer is no.. He chose them before either child was born. and as far as the nations went, God loved one more than he loved the other. and the nation whcih came from the older child served the nation which came from the younger child

I'm always fascinated when people try to convince me that the plain meaning of Scripture isn't the plain meaning of Scripture.

 

[Roger316]

A monergist is a person who believes that God alone effects a person's salvation. They believe that the Holy Spirit is the only active agent in a person's spiritual rebirth, that the human will is considered spiritually dead and incapable of choosing God on its own until God first steps in to change the person's heart. They believe that saving faith is a gift from God to all whom the Father chooses to become part of the body of Christ. The gift is the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which the invisible God the Father enters the being of God the Son, and through which they both enter our beings to change our motivation for living and fill us with love, wisdom, and truth. They believe that all (100%) of the glory for their salvation goes to the Father and to the Son because in 1 Cor 1: 29, no flesh should glory in His presence. That means that no one in heaven can say "I did it!", or "I made the right decision!", or "I did the right things and believed the right things!".
A synergist is a person who believes that salvation involves a cooperative effort between divine grace and human freedom. They believe that God initiates salvation through grace, but the individual must freely choose to accept, respond to, or cooperate with that grace. They emphasize that human beings possess the free will to either assent to or resist God's salvific grace. They believe that they should get some of the glory for their salvation if they accept God's grace.

In my studies, I have found that such categories make no sense from a Biblical perspective. The problem with this poll is that it doesn't recognize the fact that there are two realities, not one single reality. For instance, consider Romans 3:5 where Paul alerts the reader that he is "speaking in human terms. What he means is that he is speaking from within the scope of human existence.

Here’s a cleaner, tighter, more polished version of your paragraph—same theological substance, but with clearer flow, stronger conceptual precision, and a more coherent argument. I’ve kept your voice and your monergism/synergism framing intact.

God has revealed Himself as the transcendent Creator, the Author of the story in which we are the characters. The principles governing an Author are not the same as those governing the characters within His narrative. In both realms, truth, justice, and love are defined by God’s will. The difference is that God’s will is foundational—He is not accountable to a higher standard outside Himself—while we, as creatures, are accountable to the moral order He establishes.

From this biblical vantage point, the debate between Monergism and Synergism is essentially a matter of perspective. From the heavenly perspective, God alone determines who believes, who perseveres, and who is saved; His purpose never fails, and salvation is wholly His work. Yet from the human perspective, we experience salvation as synergistic—we repent, we believe, we persevere. Both descriptions are true, but they operate at different levels: one describes the Author’s sovereign action, the other describes the lived experience of the characters within His story.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'm always fascinated when people try to convince me that the plain meaning of Scripture isn't the plain meaning of Scripture.

I am always fascinated when people think they have scripture down pat. But have no understanding of what scripture means

The problem you have is your context. Your trying to force a context in the passage that is not there

Thats why you misrepresent what Paul said. and you misrepresent the OT prophets of whome paul quoted.

 

[NightTwister]

I am always fascinated when people think they have scripture down pat. But have no understanding of what scripture means

The problem you have is your context. Your trying to force a context in the passage that is not there

Thats why you misrepresent what Paul said. and you misrepresent the OT prophets of whome paul quoted.

Grace and Peace

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Nice try, but Romans 9 is clear:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

Do you know chapter/verse where it was said to Rebekah before they were born "the elder shall serve the younger"?

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Do you know chapter/verse where it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"?


And I'm not referring to the verses in Romans 9 ... I'm referring to the verse in the OT where Rebekah was told "the elder shall serve the younger" and the verse in the OT where it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated"?

Romans 9 merely reiterates what God has already told us.

.

 

[OMC]

Yes.. the sin of unbelief is the unforgivable sin, if you die in that state as Jesus said, you die in a condemned state

Unbelief is not “the unforgivable sin” in a technical sense.
But dying in unbelief is eternally fatal, because unbelief rejects Christ, the only source of forgiveness.
Therefore, the person who dies in unbelief dies condemned.
This is exactly what Jesus taught in John 8:24 and John 3:18.
Jesus names only one sin with the label "unforgivable"
“Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness.”— Mark 3:29
But notice what that sin is: It is a hardened, willful, final rejection of Christ, even while seeing His works clearly.
In other words, it is unbelief in its most hardened form.
So your instinct is correct: Unbelief is the root condition that damns.
But biblically, the “unforgivable sin” is not a category separate from unbelief — it is unbelief at its most decisive and final expression.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

I am a synergist. God and man cooperate in the process of salvation.

(KJV Romans 10:9-10) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

(KJV Ephesians 2:8-10) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

(KJV Mark 4:20) "And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred."

(KJV John 10:27-28) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

(KJV John 15:4-6) "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

(KJV Titus 2:11-12) "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

(KJV James 2:20-23) "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

(KJV Revelation 22:14) "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

 

[OMC]

I am a synergist. God and man cooperate in the process of salvation.

(KJV Romans 10:9-10) "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

(KJV Ephesians 2:8-10) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

(KJV Mark 4:20) "And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred."

(KJV John 10:27-28) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

(KJV John 15:4-6) "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

(KJV Titus 2:11-12) "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;"

(KJV James 2:20-23) "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

(KJV Revelation 22:14) "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Scripture teaches the monergistic order:
Regeneration → Faith → Salvation (John 1:13; John 3:8; Eph. 2:5; 1 John 5:1)
Synergism teaches:
Faith → Regeneration → Salvation
That is theologically impossible, because:
dead men cannot believe (Eph. 2:1)
the natural man cannot receive spiritual truth (1 Cor. 2:14)
no one seeks God (Rom. 3:11)
the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63)

 

[PaulThomson]

Nice try, but Romans 9 is clear:

though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Four easy questions for you, @NightTwister , which will disclose whether you are interested in a good faith discussion on what scripture actually says.

1. When God designates and commissions someone to be a servant to another, does that indicate that God accepts and loves the one He designates the servee, and rejects and hates the one He designates the server ?

2. Where, if anywhere, does God in scripture declare during the lifetime of Esau, the brother of Jacob, that that specific man was hated and rejected by God?

3. Does God indicate elsewhere in scripture, such as in Obadiah 1:8-14
8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress.

13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

and Amos 1:11

Amo 1:11 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever:

and maybe elsewhere, why He set Himself against and decided to destroy Esau/Edom, the tribe of Jacob’s brother’s descendants?

4. Were those reasons characteristic of the man Esau during Esau’s life-time?