Are You Rapture Ready?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You still don't get it?

Rev 14:14 is a gathering...PERIOD.
IT IS A GATHERING.

1 Thes 4 IS A GATHERING OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST...FOLLOWED BY THE LIVING.
Hello...dead in Christ FIRST, THE LIVING AFTERWARDS

Unbelievably simple.

YOUR MODEL HAS REV 14:14 Gatheing before the dead in Christ.

SO, EITHER PAUL OR GOD IS WRONG.

No worries.
So far no postribber has understood that no brainer.

...or so embarrassed they position made up rabbit trails all around it.
The "gathering" is most definitely post trib, it'll only happen when the Lord returns IN LIKE MANNER. You're in denial. If it were pre-trib or mid-trib, then Jesus would be lying.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31)

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem ... Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" ... "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:4-9)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BBerean and vassal
How does "SHEAF" ERASE FIRSTFRUITS?????

Jesus is the firstfruits.

You actually think the wording of;
"...and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest....."
Is erased by the word "sheaf"?

That dynamic of "waving" is tied into the entry of Jesus on a donkey into Jesursalem. Where palm branches are waved, which ties into the innumerable number in heaven....also waving palm branches...which is another study in types and shadows.

Way too deep for you.
Psst, palm Sunday was the fulfillment of LAMB SELECTION DAY, four days before passover, on which Lord Jesus was crucified. Whatever I think of the wording, it's for the Feast of Firstfruits, first Sunday after passover. That's apparently way too deep for you.

Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: ‘On the tenth of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man’s need you shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Do not eat it raw, nor boiled at all with water, but roasted in fire—its head with its legs and its entrails. You shall let none of it remain until morning, and what remains of it until morning you shall burn with fire. And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the Lord’s Passover. (Ex. 12:3-11)
 
That's the biggest stretch of interpretation I've seen in a while. Or correct me, are you saying this woman will be hiding the Body of Christ during God's wrath? If not, why post it then?
I'm saying the nation of Israel will be shielded from the Great Tribulation. She's identified as the nation of Israel because Jacob, Israel's progenitor himself did. If interpreting the bible with the bible itself, instead of your preconceived doctrines and narratives, is the "biggest stretch", then so be it.

Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.” So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?” And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter in mind. (Gen. 37:9-11)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2ndTimeIsTheCharm
"" I don't compare in times with the flood, Jesus did that..""

Ok. I get it.
"Before the flood" is omitted
The One taken /one left is omitted.
Of course it is.

You are omitting practically all the components of the analogy?

You actually think at Jesus's coming, right before his coming, there is no buying and selling????
Jesus was confused.?

Maybe Jesus got it wrong and Noah was gathered into the ark AFTER the flood.


No matter what, either you, or that bible is way way off.

I don't know...you guys have Matt 24 as your main pillar, and yet none of Jesus words in his Noah analogy make any sense at all.

Maybe pretend there is a flood, ( oh but wait, you do not know what Jesus is pointing to in his use of "flood")
And after the flood, there is a rapture?

So in "before the flood," one is taken, one left behind,. And you are saying half the world is saved/half wicked, and the wicked are raptured before the flood, and the righteous half earth's population are crowded on the boat, ....?????

I suppose the righteous are then raptured after the flood, since the rapture is AFTER the trib.
But wait, you guys say the rapture is at the second coming.????
So after the flood, Noah is taken???
The Lord comes after the flood to take Noah someplace?

You ever actually taken an honest look at what you guys do to a simple analogy????

Sigh....your doctrine butchers the virgin parable analogy also.
So here's your schtick, justifying "pre-trib rapture" with "Noah entering the Ark"? Gee, last time I check, Noah's Ark floated for five months, was that in heaven? Or the air was flooded with an atmospheric river and Noah was caught up to meet his lord up there? Was he "taken" either before, during or after the Flood? Or maybe it was the wicked being taken by the Flood, as Lord Jesus actually said?
 
Still on the subject of the resurrection (as opposed to some theoretical rapture), there are two key passages in The New Testament, both written by the Apostle Paul, that are commonly used by "rapturists" to describe their fictional event.

To the Christians at Corinth, Paul writes "...we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, an we shall be changed." (I Cor. 15:51, 52).

At this point he has already written to the believers at Thessalonica with a very similar doctrinal statement: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." (I Thes. 4:16, 17).

Because both verses describe people being raised from the dead it should be obvious that this is a significant description of the resurrection of the believers. Both passages are consistent, for they say that "the dead in Christ shall rise first...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up..." He couldn't make it any clearer: At the resurrection of believers in Christ, all the dead believers will be resurrected; then those that are alive will be "changed" to the same "incorruptible" state as the resurrected believers.

The pre-tribulation rapture doctrine teaches that believers that live in the last generation will be "changed" into a resurrected or eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period -- which is generally believed to be 7 years in length. The doctrine then goes on to say that there will be many "tribulation saints" that come to know Christ after the so-called rapture. While the "raptured" believers are in heaven during the tribulation, all or most of these "tribulation saints" will all be killed for their faith during the tribulation.

Revelation does describe believers that are martyred during the great tribulation. John writes that "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God...and they lived and reigned with him a thousand years." (Rev. 20:4). The problem should already be apparent. If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the 'rapture' before the tribulation, how then can these so-called "tribulation saints" be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?

Remember the previously cited verses (see post #15 ) that clearly show there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost. If you have the "dead in Christ" rising at the time of the fictional "rapture" before the tribulation and the falsely name "tribulation saints" later raised after the tribulation is over, you then have two resurrections of the believers. That contradicts the plain teaching of the scriptures.

Rapturists usually attempt to answer this problem by redefining the raptured believers as "firstfruits" rather than resurrected believers -- that way they can still have the "real" resurrection at the end of the tribulation. The Apostle Paul, however, precludes this as he writes that the resurrection will occur for "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (1 Cor. 15:23).

A further refinement of this concept of a singular resurrection of believers needs to be addressed. When the text says "the dead in Christ" are to be raised at a particular point in time, e.g. "at the last trump," we can draw certain conclusions. When scripture uses the term "the," in a collective sense (as opposed to 'some of the dead in Christ'), we see the word as all inclusive. In short, the phrasing of the text obviously means all the dead in Christ that have ever lived will be raised at that time. There is simply no other way to turn this into a partial resurrection, or a progressive resurrection, or anything else other than an all inclusive resurrection of all believers in Jesus Christ.

Now let's say that this theoretical pre-tribulation "rapture" occurs next week. That means that every believer since the time of Christ that has died will "rise first," according to II Thes. 4:16. That would be about 99% of all Christians in history! How then can one say that this event would be the firstfruits -- especially when the text says that Jesus himself is the firstfruits? That sounds like the main 'harvest' to me!

It's really very simple: If you take away the pre-conceived notion of a "rapture" the problems also go away. Jesus returns at the second coming at the end of the tribulation. There will be Christians that are alive at that time. All dead believers will be resurrected from the dead at his return, and "then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds." (I Cor. 15:51).

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice ! Amazing how true that is ! Darkness is a terrible thing . The Last day is so crystal clear unless in a dark cloud of some kind !

The "gathering" is most definitely post trib, it'll only happen when the Lord returns IN LIKE MANNER. You're in denial. If it were pre-trib or mid-trib, then Jesus would be lying.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matt. 24:29-31)

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem ... Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" ... "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:4-9)


It's nice to see that all of you hear God clearly on this.

John 10:27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

John 6:39
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day."

🤗


🕊
 
Changes on earth:

During the Rapture of the Church, no notable changes will occur on Earth. There is no mention of earthquakes, falling stars, or other topographical changes. However, during the Second Coming, significant events occur on Earth, as indicated in the following Bible passage:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." (Matthew 24:29)

In addition to signs in the heavens, remarkable events also take place on Earth. The Mount of Olives splits in two, creating a great valley.

"And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14:4)

The Second Coming has consequences for nature and topography, which the Rapture does not. So this means that they have to be two separate events.
 
The Rapture and the Second Coming have many differences. If they were the same event, important details would not be mentioned during the Second Coming as they are in God's Word. This implies that the Rapture and the Second Coming must occur at different times.

The Rapture in the Air
The Rapture in the air is not mentioned in the key verses about the Second Coming. When we examine Revelation 19, which describes the Lord Jesus returning to Earth, there is no mention of the Rapture taking place. This is noteworthy because this is one of the most significant prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

No Resurrection
The scriptures that speak of the Second Coming do not mention the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is a major event occurring during the Lord Jesus' return (1 Thessalonians 4:16). This implies that the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place at a different time. This point was earlier discussed in ‘Difference 5’.

The Rapture Mentioned in Revelation
Initially, the Book of Revelation speaks about the Great Tribulation and the return of Christ. However, there are two instances in this book where the Rapture could be implied. In Revelation 2 and 3, John wrote letters to the seven churches on Earth. After this, an event will take place after the Church Age but before the Great Tribulation with all its judgments and wrath.

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."" (Revelation 4:1)

I believe this text is not a direct proof of Rapture before the Great Tribulation. However, it may contain an indirect reference to the Rapture, and this might be a hidden image of the Rapture.

The representation of the Rapture of the Church can be found in Revelation 12, which describes the woman in labor, the male child, and the dragon. I envision the Rapture of the Church in this image, as discussed in Chapter 3. Two examples in the Book of Revelation could speak of the Rapture, even though it is not clearly mentioned in the chapter that discusses Christ's return. This suggests that the Rapture occurs at a different time.

The Church was not mentioned after Revelation 3
In the Book of Revelation, John initially wrote to the churches on Earth. After Revelation 3, the church was no longer mentioned, and John refers to "Those who dwell on the Earth." This happened after John saw an open door in heaven and experienced a spiritual transition. It is remarkable that during the most dreadful period on Earth, Jesus did not provide any encouragement or guidance to the church. This can only happen if the Rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation and is not the same as the Second Coming after the tribulation.

Furthermore, in Revelation 19, when Jesus returns to Earth, there is no mention of believers waiting for Him on Earth and anticipating Him as the Bridegroom. The tone in Revelation 19 is one of war, with Jesus coming as King and Warrior, whereas we should be expecting Him as our Savior.

"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13, NIV)

If the Rapture and the Second Coming were to occur simultaneously, shouldn't John in the Book of Revelation be more focused on the church? He would explain how the church should endure this difficult time and how the Second Coming is the moment when the church will be rescued from the ungodly. After Chapter 3, John no longer mentions the church on Earth. This is because the Rapture has already taken place before the Great Tribulation.
 
The Rapture and the Second Coming have many differences. If they were the same event, important details would not be mentioned during the Second Coming as they are in God's Word. This implies that the Rapture and the Second Coming must occur at different times.

The Rapture in the Air
The Rapture in the air is not mentioned in the key verses about the Second Coming. When we examine Revelation 19, which describes the Lord Jesus returning to Earth, there is no mention of the Rapture taking place. This is noteworthy because this is one of the most significant prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

No Resurrection
The scriptures that speak of the Second Coming do not mention the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is a major event occurring during the Lord Jesus' return (1 Thessalonians 4:16). This implies that the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place at a different time. This point was earlier discussed in ‘Difference 5’.

The Rapture Mentioned in Revelation
Initially, the Book of Revelation speaks about the Great Tribulation and the return of Christ. However, there are two instances in this book where the Rapture could be implied. In Revelation 2 and 3, John wrote letters to the seven churches on Earth. After this, an event will take place after the Church Age but before the Great Tribulation with all its judgments and wrath.

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."" (Revelation 4:1)

I believe this text is not a direct proof of Rapture before the Great Tribulation. However, it may contain an indirect reference to the Rapture, and this might be a hidden image of the Rapture.

The representation of the Rapture of the Church can be found in Revelation 12, which describes the woman in labor, the male child, and the dragon. I envision the Rapture of the Church in this image, as discussed in Chapter 3. Two examples in the Book of Revelation could speak of the Rapture, even though it is not clearly mentioned in the chapter that discusses Christ's return. This suggests that the Rapture occurs at a different time.

The Church was not mentioned after Revelation 3
In the Book of Revelation, John initially wrote to the churches on Earth. After Revelation 3, the church was no longer mentioned, and John refers to "Those who dwell on the Earth." This happened after John saw an open door in heaven and experienced a spiritual transition. It is remarkable that during the most dreadful period on Earth, Jesus did not provide any encouragement or guidance to the church. This can only happen if the Rapture of the Church occurs before the tribulation and is not the same as the Second Coming after the tribulation.

Furthermore, in Revelation 19, when Jesus returns to Earth, there is no mention of believers waiting for Him on Earth and anticipating Him as the Bridegroom. The tone in Revelation 19 is one of war, with Jesus coming as King and Warrior, whereas we should be expecting Him as our Savior.

"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13, NIV)

If the Rapture and the Second Coming were to occur simultaneously, shouldn't John in the Book of Revelation be more focused on the church? He would explain how the church should endure this difficult time and how the Second Coming is the moment when the church will be rescued from the ungodly. After Chapter 3, John no longer mentions the church on Earth. This is because the Rapture has already taken place before the Great Tribulation.
"Repeat a lie a hundred times, it becomes truth." Joseph Goebbels.
 
Where did I theorize any of these, friend? You should admit your error in your weaponization of Matt. 24:40-41 out of context. If that were rapture, then it would be the rapture of the wicked. It is you who theorized your pretrib narrative, not me.
The setting before the flood.
Jesus setting.
You are threatened by Jesus words ?

To the point of telling him his word is a weapon?

Oh wait...yes it is a weapon against your omissions.

The facts of mat 24 are indeed against you.
Testifying mightily and cutting your omissions to pieces.
 
  • Like
Reactions: faithlife
I've never done that, how are they "firstfruits of the resurrection" when they've never died in the first place, being sealed by God in Rev. 7? What I alluded to was the origin of the "firstfruits", which you've totally ignored. You're just strawmanning.
Lol
1. Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Hard to wiggle out of it eh?
 
  • Like
Reactions: faithlife
Hi psalm, my "snarky mess" was purely in response to the rather vivid fantasy you related wherein you hoped all post-tribbers get left behind in the Rapture. It was not about you personally, I merely posted that it was a divisive thing to say and a disturbing thing to hope for.

However, I do get what you are saying that it was a bit of a "drive-by rebuke", and I apologize for that.

Really I was just trying to be fair since I had just called out a post-tribber for similar behavior, but since I don't know you well it may have been out of line, if so I apologize.

I'm sorry if post-tribbers have said things that make you want them to get left out of the rapture. They shouldn't do that. Of all things that OUGHT to bring us Christians together, you'd think this would qualify but sadly nope 😒.

Best!
You got a nasty habit of telling me what I hope for, what I want, and what my intentions are.

That's three strikes...as you like to put it.

All three 100% wrong.

Go sneer at someone else.
Tell em all about their intentions.

Flat out goofy.
 
I've never done that, how are they "firstfruits of the resurrection" when they've never died in the first place, being sealed by God in Rev. 7? What I alluded to was the origin of the "firstfruits", which you've totally ignored. You're just strawmanning.
Lol.
I asked you about firstfruits of the resurrection wording in Rev 20.
You TOLD ME, The 144,000 are the firstfruits.

So now, 50 sentences later, your silly damage control has you dancing all around that fact.

You can't admit you are way off.
Read 1 cor 15:20

Don't spin it.
Just read it as a fact


Then read Rev 20 with THAT FACT factored in.

Now we have brand new, non postrib spin info, we can move forward. on.

Whatever dislike you have of me should not be such a stumbling block of truth.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Edward429451
Lol.
I asked you about firstfruits of the resurrection wording in Rev 20.
You TOLD ME, The 144,000 are the firstfruits.

So now, 50 sentences later, your silly damage control has you dancing all around that fact.

You can't admit you are way off.
Read 1 cor 15:20

Don't spin it.
Just read it as a fact


Then read Rev 20 with THAT FACT factored in.

Now we have brand new, non postrib spin info, we can move forward. on.

Whatever dislike you have of me should not be such a stumbling block of truth.


Just curious:

When the GT is here, are you going to take the mark, or refuse it and be beheaded?


🕊
 
  • Sad
Reactions: faithlife
When in Biblical history did God pour His wrath over His OBEDIENT faithful children?
Bingo, yes, indeed that is true
part of the bazaar situation i see with the post trib rapture people, is that they think that all the wicked people are destroyed before the flood, an actual wicked people rapture, and God's People are the ones that stay in the flood.
(When they try to explain Jesus analogy with Noah before the flood..)

Then in the "one taken /one left" wording of Jesus, they really are upset about that 50% dynamic of Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: faithlife
Just curious:

When the GT is here, are you going to take the mark, or refuse it and be beheaded?


🕊
I am not the one saying the bible is wrong about all taking the mark, and those refusing getting martyred.
You are saying the rapture is postrib.
And therefore assuming some huge number are hiding in caves...and not factoring in there are no believers alive postrib....if the bible can be trusted....as you seem to question..

I don't shy away from pretrib rapture verses.

But if the bible is true, and you insist on "going through the trib" you will have to obey and take the mark.

IOW, Postribbers are actually questioning their own faith, by going against clear scripture. ( prophesying they will go through the gt)
Actually hoping for something beyond their understanding.
 
Haha no worries, and I know you don't hate post-tribbers lol. I appreciate that about you 🙏 🙂.

You may be correct about those with the seal of God on their foreheads being saved after the rapture, it's definitely possible! My main thought on the subject is like you said, just "be ready".

I think post-tribbers should be ready for Jesus whenever He comes, because He might come sooner than they expect.

I think pre-tribbers should be ready to wait longer than they expect and endure some persecution, because we don't know just how bad it's going to get before we check out of here.

Jesus said He would come when we least expect it, that statement alone makes me want to lean mid-trib lol. 😆

But anyways, yes I agree that we won't be appointed to God's wrath BUT for any Christians still present for these events (perhaps only those who get saved after the rapture 😉), I think life will still be a bit sticky while God's wrath is being poured out. Like, no it won't apply to Christians directly but being around all that still won't be pleasant.

Lot was spared but he lost his home, his livelihood, most of his relatives and had to live in a cave.

Noah survived the flood but spent a great deal of time and resources building the ark, eventually lost his home and had to rebuild from nothing, not to mention it was probably traumatic seeing everyone and everything he knew get washed away as they begged to be let in.

So yeah.... although we're not subject to God's wrath we can still suffer from fallout from it but in the end He's got us. 🙏

Best!
Go ahead and appreciate it about me also.

Not only do I not hate postribbers, but I don't hate anyone.

Be careful what you sling around.
 
Jesus never spoke of a rapture , but JN Darby did ! Jesus says he will raise up believers on the LAST DAY .
A resurrection?
A resurrection at the last day?

A resurrection at his coming?

When is the last day?