At what point in our salvation is the blood of Christ applied?

[Inquisitor]

Thank goodness God is smarter than AI.

I second that.

We may have to wait for the next level AI.

 

[mailmandan]

In the position of Scripture only there is no Cessationist and there is no Pentecostal.

They are both foreign entities to the N.T.

You know what I mean. So, where do you attend church?

 

[PaulThomson]

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from any precursors, and apart from a requirement to keep the Mosaic Law." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

The Bible also makes it clear in many passages of scripture that saving faith in Christ is a faith that has commensurate works that demonstrate that one's faith in Christ is not just a profession, but is in deed and in truth.

You seem to be having trouble believing both of these facts, which no doubt you do, but also admitting that works are required to remain saved. However, if one begins with faith in Christ that produces commensurate works, and one drifts into a professional faith that lacks commensurate works, one has ceased to have the saving faith that genuinely trust in Jesus, and has fallen away into a dead faith that trusts instead in a set of doctrinal propositions.

 

[Inquisitor]

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from any precursors, and apart from a requirement to keep the Mosaic Law." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

The Bible also makes it clear in many passages of scripture that saving faith in Christ is a faith that has commensurate works that demonstrate that one's faith in Christ is not just a profession, but is in deed and in truth.

You seem to be having trouble believing both of these facts, which no doubt you do, but also admitting that works are required to remain saved. However, if one begins with faith in Christ that produces commensurate works, and one drifts into a professional faith that lacks commensurate works, one has ceased to have the saving faith that genuinely trust in Jesus, and has fallen away into a dead faith that trusts instead in a set of doctrinal propositions.

That is a living faith not a cherry picked set of versus to support a doctrinal statement.

 

[Inquisitor]

You know what I mean. So, where do you attend church?

Anywhere the Holy Spirit is active and believe me, you know when the Holy Spirit is resident
in the members of that church.

There is a vast difference between worship in the spirit and worship in the flesh.

There is a distinct difference in prayer in the spirit and prayer in the flesh.

You need to experience the different churches across the spectrum.

I don't have a church membership.

I scan independent churches if I move to a new area.

I move a lot.

 

[mailmandan]

The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from any precursors, and apart from a requirement to keep the Mosaic Law." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

The Bible also makes it clear in many passages of scripture that saving faith in Christ is a faith that has commensurate works that demonstrate that one's faith in Christ is not just a profession, but is in deed and in truth.

You seem to be having trouble believing both of these facts, which no doubt you do, but also admitting that works are required to remain saved. However, if one begins with faith in Christ that produces commensurate works, and one drifts into a professional faith that lacks commensurate works, one has ceased to have the saving faith that genuinely trust in Jesus, and has fallen away into a dead faith that trusts instead in a set of doctrinal propositions.

Man is saved through belief/faith "apart from works in general." (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) When it comes to the moral aspect pf the Mosaic Law, you cannot dissect good works from the Law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)) I have no trouble believing both of these facts. Professional faith?

As I already stated in post #231, man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28) ✝️

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[mailmandan]

Anywhere the Holy Spirit is active and believe me, you know when the Holy Spirit is resident
in the members of that church.

There is a vast difference between worship in the spirit and worship in the flesh.

There is a distinct difference in prayer in the spirit and prayer in the flesh.

You need to experience the different churches across the spectrum.

I don't have a church membership.

I scan independent churches if I move to a new area.

I move a lot.

I have experienced different churches across the spectrum and the mission of the church I attend now is to see lives changed by Jesus and their vision is to be living proof of a loving God to a watching world. The Pastor of my church is passionate about not only meeting this mission and vision but also seeing Christians have life more abundantly. The name of my church is Abundant Life. Their outreach ministry is also incredible. That is why I attend that church. I have visited enough churches in the past that simply go through the motions of worshipping and praying in the flesh but lack in vision, mission and outreach ministry.

 

[mailmandan]

You seem to be having trouble believing both of these facts, which no doubt you do, but also admitting that works are required to remain saved.

I don't believe that salvation is obtained by works--salvation by works or maintained by works--salvation by works at the back door. I call the latter "type 2 works salvation."

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

 

[Jimbone]

I think more specifically about the actually act of being saved, what role we play, and most importantly who gets the glory and credit for it. My position is God gets it all. Yes, I'm alive and make decisions, no I don't believe we are puppets being controlled. I believe God gives us life, God draws us in, God transforms us by His grace no matter how or who He is saving. So, the guy that hears the gospel, responds in faith, hit's his knees in repentance and is born again in truth right there, 100% all God. The guy that grows up in a land and in a culture that will kill you for being a Christian, that man has dreams and is drawn into salvation in truth, 100% God. The junkie that's been shooting heroin for 40 years in jail for the 20th time, that woman who is born again on the floor of a cell fighting withdraw, Yep, 100% God.

I'm one of those "All glory to God" fellows, and to be honest if hearing this offends anyone then I'd just take a closer look at my relationship with God in truth. That said I do understand why and how this view it held, I too believed the same way until He led me to something that fit His word so much more completely.

Wow, I "actually" thought my proofreading skills were getting a little better, and then read "the actually act" in the very first sentence.
I just wanted to formally apologize to the whole community for this kind of ignorant violation. There's just no excuse. So please excuse me while I go hang my head in shame, in the corner, facing the corner. Feel free to ridicule me and throw bad produce at me, I deserve it. .........

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't believe that salvation is obtained by works--salvation by works or maintained by works--salvation by works at the back door. I call the latter "type 2 works salvation."

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

It's a pity that you so easily excise eleven words from the first chapter of 1 Peter to support a claim that the entire first chapter of Peter does not make.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear/reverence:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Nowhere in the chapter does it say we are guaranteed a glorified physical body, if we at some past time put our trust in Christ as Saviour and Lord, whether we revert to a disobedient unclean lifestyle or not.

 

[PaulThomson]

Man is saved through belief/faith "apart from works in general." (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) When it comes to the moral aspect pf the Mosaic Law, you cannot dissect good works from the Law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)) I have no trouble believing both of these facts. Professional faith?

As I already stated in post #231, man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28) ✝️

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Justification is not the entirety of salvation.

 

[TrustandObey]

Believing in Jesus for redemption is not a work that merits salvation.

No one is pushing this idea. It's that same boogie man living in your head.

So, you believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works?

Again, no one is pushing salvation through merit.

 

[PaulThomson]

So, you believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works? (in contradiction to Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

We are saved by grace through faith that works. An alleged faith that does not work, does not save. This agrees with Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

 

[PaulThomson]

So, where do you attend church?

In Christ.

 

[DavidLamb]

In Christ.

I trust that we all seek to meet together in Christ, but I imagine the question referred to where you regularly meet with fellow Christians to worship.

 

[PaulThomson]

I trust that we all seek to meet together in Christ, but I imagine the question referred to where you regularly meet with fellow Christians to worship.

I know the answer the poster wanted, intending to use it to apply the guilt by association fallacy. I gave a correct and accurate answer. that the poster could not weaponise.

 

[TrustandObey]

I know the answer the poster wanted, intending to use it to apply the guilt by association fallacy. I gave a correct and accurate answer. that the poster could not weaponise.

What? Mailmandan would never do such a thing.

 

[mailmandan]

It's a pity that you so easily excise eleven words from the first chapter of 1 Peter to support a claim that the entire first chapter of Peter does not make.

You mean does not support your eisegesis.

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I noticed you did not highlight Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, and went straight to "unto obedience" to imply we are saved by works. God's elect are those whom God has predestined to salvation. Not through fatalistic determination but through His foreknowledge. In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

In regard to sanctification of the Spirit, in Hebrews 10:10, we read - By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. In Hebrews 10:14, we read - For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. In regard to unto/for obedience, believers are sanctified or set apart in order that they may obey Christ. Just as we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9) then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

So, this hope to you is a cross your fingers kind of hope? Biblical hope is not some cross your fingers hope I win the lottery kind of hope. Unlike the English word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope.

Strong's Greek: 1680. ἐλπίς (elpis) -- expectation, hope

If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

This eternal inheritance that is reserved for the Christian has no decaying elements. Nothing can extinguish that secure inheritance.

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is supreme power (and not our own power) that keeps the believer secure. God protects believers through His power by sustaining their faith to the end. Those who have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) will also be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification).

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So, might be or might not be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ? Other translations say may be found. The AMPC reads - So that [the genuineness] of your faith may be tested, [your faith] which is infinitely more precious than the perishable gold which is tested and purified by fire. [This proving of your faith is intended] to redound to [your] praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) is revealed. Faith is "tested by fire" in order to prove its genuineness. When Jesus returns, He will receive honor as the true Lord and King, and our faith in Him will be fully vindicated.

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear/reverence:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Believers are born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible. Believers are justified and sanctified in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Yet we also see progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of holiness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. Fear pertains to a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Believers know that God judges the works of His children fairly and respect His evaluation. Our works will be tested by fire to determine rewards and loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15)

1 Peter 1:22 - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith." Without faith souls/hearts are not purified. If we don't have faith, then we have not obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16; 1:16) This is unto love of the brethren, sincere love for each other, deeply, from the heart. We love because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) God’s love has been poured out into believers' hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Nowhere in the chapter does it say we are guaranteed a glorified physical body, if we at some past time put our trust in Christ as Saviour and Lord, whether we revert to a disobedient unclean lifestyle or not.

Typical mindset of someone who underestimates the power of God and the incorruptibility of being born again. In regard to a guaranteed glorified physical body, once again, in Romans 8:30, we read - In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

In 2 Corinthias 1:22, we read - who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
In 2 Corinthians 5:5, we read - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
In Ephesians 1:13-14, we read - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. ✝️

 

[mailmandan]

We are saved by grace through faith that works. An alleged faith that does not work, does not save. This agrees with Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9).

Faith that saves does result in producing works, yet we are still saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not by grace through faith "infused" or "conjoined" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving salvation as Roman Catholics (and other works-salvationists) teach.

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: *No way that supports salvation by faith AND WORKS.

An alleged faith that produces no works is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) which explains why it does not save. It is not alive in Christ and works are the evidence of it. Those who have been saved by grace through faith have been made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and created in Christ Jesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.