Bakers refuse gay couple for wedding cake - is this a Christian response?

[Lis45]

The man is correct in saying...





Not only have their religious freedoms been violated, but, their rights as owners and Citizens have been as well.

Remember when stores used to post "We have the right to refuse service?"

I don't think this is over, let's hope not, anyway.

The government restricting freedom of speech? Freedom of religious belief?

How about someone going into a Jewish or Muslim catering business and demanding they make pork related meals? How much attention do you think that would get if the owner said "Our beliefs do not allow us to even handle pork." How about having a homosexual catering business cater to an anti-homosexual function? The reason why you don't see these kinds of things is because most don't try to impose their beliefs on others. To do so begs the question as to motive, and I think most of us would agree that there is an agenda to these high-profile cases.

The argument is given that homosexuals are targeted for discrimination, because, after all, these businesses cater to adulterers, thieves, spiritual murderers, et cetera. But, the difference is that those guilty of these other sins do not walk into a business and say, "Well, I am getting married, and my fiancé is a divorced woman I was having an affair with and left my wife and kids for."

Perhaps if we had people advocating adultery and divorce as there are those advocating homosexuality, perhaps such an absurd scenario might make it into the media.

But usually people don't broadcast their sin, or make it a point to let business owners know that their lives stand in direct conflict with the religious beliefs of the owners. I have no doubt but that if one did approach Christian business owners with the above scenario, they would likely refuse service to them as well.

I am a business owner, and I can refuse service to anyone I want to, simple as that. In the past I have refused service to someone who sought to commit insurance fraud. That fellow was not happy with what I had to say. Did he go to the press and declare discrimination? No, because he knew what he was doing was wrong. And that is why homosexuals pursue this type of action...

...because they are demanding we not only accept their lifestyles, but want us to condone it.

And in the hearts of those of us who find this lifestyle to be sin, we would be condoning it if we participated in the event.

For the government to step in and demand we do is wrong, and I would love to have the chance to speak to some of these nitwits myself.


God bless.

I don’t believe placing signs to refuse service to ANYONE that is not doing anything to physical harm your place of business is the reasonable thing to do. History itself as shown how devastating this practice has been.
I have to disagree with your “Muslim caterer serving pork” example in relation to the bakery scenario, because of this….You would not go into K-Mart and expect to purchase a product sold only at Nordstrom….however, you would go into ABC Cake bakery and expect to purchase the same product as you could at DEF Cake bakery. When you have a business that serves the public, you cannot and should not be permitted to pick and choose who you will “serve” and who you will not. Every client you serve is a sinner, and as a Christian, you are (or should be) aware of that without having them to “broadcast” it. Honestly, I don’t know one homosexual (and I know plenty) who would EVER enter a place of business and say, “Guess what! I’m a homosexual pervert who lives only to commit sexual sin and I just want every customer you come across to know all about me and my personal life and choices”. No. They simply go in and request a product or service, just like anyone else would.
I’m so distraught over the many misconceptions people have of these people. We all have every opportunity placed before us to serve and love these people who are lost and in need of Christ, yet we blow it every time in the name of “our rights”! We are no different than they are in this respect!
In Texas, somebody placed a sign in their restaurant window, proudly stating “We don’t serve gays”….and posed proudly for this shot that went viral. I was so disgusted and saddened by it. Homosexuals are not going there to “commit lewd acts”, they are going there to eat!!!!!!! Homsexuals are not going into a bakery to “perforom sexual perversions”, they are going there to order a cake!!!! To treat them as we do is UNGODLY!.....and I understand the argument that…”Well they treat US ungodly!!!”, but as Christians, WE are the ones without excuse here; for I KNOW not ONE of us would respond with that when God asks us “Why”?
I understand or desire to have religious rights and freedoms. I do. But I understand that we are here to SERVE others. Serving others does not mean we participate in their “lewd acts”. It means we serve them just as we are commissioned to serve EVERY other sinner that comes our way.

I’m sorry, I just had to get this off my chest, and I pray nothing but God’s best for you all.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I don’t believe placing signs to refuse service to ANYONE that is not doing anything to physical harm your place of business is the reasonable thing to do.

First, how do you see that no harm has been done when their business has closed, they have been fined $135,000, and have had a gag order issued?

Sorry, Lis45, but you have bought into the liberal arguments that promote homosexuality.

Secondly, as a business owner, I can tell you without doubt that I reserve the right to serve anyone I choose, and if those reasons are because the prospective customer violates Christian Principles, my right to deny service is a Constitutional Right.

History itself as shown how devastating this practice has been.

If you mean signs like "No Blacks served here," I would remind you that Scripture does not condemn being black, nor does Scripture condone racism.

So you are seriously in error to draw a parallel and conclude a business owner cannot refuse service for Religious reasons.

I have to disagree with your “Muslim caterer serving pork” example in relation to the bakery scenario, because of this….You would not go into K-Mart and expect to purchase a product sold only at Nordstrom….however, you would go into ABC Cake bakery and expect to purchase the same product as you could at DEF Cake bakery.

Sorry, but you are only emphasizing my point. That is the point. You don't go into a store where it is known what services or products are offered, and demand something you already know they don't offer.

Forget the ABC Cake company, go into an ABC store and demand an Icee, lol. Go into K-mart and demand a Long Island Ice Tea. and then charge them with discriminating against drunks.

A more accurate parallel would be to go into a Christian Church and demand they preach a positive message about Satan.

I can imagine there are Muslim and Jewish owned establishments that cater who do not use pork products. How many non-Jewish or non-Muslims have gone in their demanding they cater using pork?

That is the parallel. It would be forcing someone to engage in behavior that violates their religious liberty. It's either do it, or face the consequences.

And that is what has happened in this case.

And you have been deceived if you think the homosexuals are the ones being persecuted.

When you have a business that serves the public, you cannot and should not be permitted to pick and choose who you will “serve” and who you will not.

I do.

I once refused to engage in Insurance Fraud, because it violated my Christian beliefs.

I do not refuse homosexuals service, but none of the services I provide are used in homosexual activities, as a wedding cake is.

Marriage is sacred to Christians, and we do not have a Biblical support or exhortation to in any way condone or do anything that would legitimize homosexual marriage.

Every client you serve is a sinner,

And as mentioned, people do not usually broadcast their sins.

Try reading this again:

The argument is given that homosexuals are targeted for discrimination, because, after all, these businesses cater to adulterers, thieves, spiritual murderers, et cetera. But, the difference is that those guilty of these other sins do not walk into a business and say, "Well, I am getting married, and my fiancé is a divorced woman I was having an affair with and left my wife and kids for."

Perhaps if we had people advocating adultery and divorce as there are those advocating homosexuality, perhaps such an absurd scenario might make it into the media.

But usually people don't broadcast their sin, or make it a point to let business owners know that their lives stand in direct conflict with the religious beliefs of the owners. I have no doubt but that if one did approach Christian business owners with the above scenario, they would likely refuse service to them as well.

and as a Christian, you are (or should be) aware of that without having them to “broadcast” it.

And that is exactly what the homosexuals did. They came into an establishment that makes wedding cakes, and wanted a wedding cake for their wedding. They broadcast their sin.

Or have you been deceived to the point where you do not think homosexuality is a sin?

We are not talking about a general knowledge that all men sin, but a specific event in which the sin was not only brought into the public, but the wishes of the owners based on Religious Belief was completely tossed out the window.

Why don't you go counsel the homosexuals that there are quite a few stores that would be more than happy to make their cake for them. Instead...you pose the Christians as being wrong because they stood firm in their beliefs.

Are you a Christian?

Honestly, I don’t know one homosexual (and I know plenty) who would EVER enter a place of business and say, “Guess what! I’m a homosexual pervert who lives only to commit sexual sin and I just want every customer you come across to know all about me and my personal life and choices”.

Well read the article, then you will be introduced to two who did being their lifestyle into the public eye.

You are imposing irrelevant issues into this, and perhaps it is because you spend so much time with homosexuals. No-one said they were perverts except you. No-one brought up "every customer knowing their business"...except you.

And that is exactly how the propaganda of the Homosexual Agenda is furthered, by people like you.

All I said was that the business owners have rights, and I wish I was that cake shop owner, because it would certainly still be an ongoing issue. No-one is going to force me to violate the principles I hold, not homosexuals, and not the government.

Who was it that brought this into the media? The shop owners? Or the homosexuals?

No. They simply go in and request a product or service, just like anyone else would.

Great. They were told they would need to go elsewhere. End of story, right?

If a heterosexual came in and asked for a cake for a Stag Party that had naked women on it, would the owner have the right to refuse them service?

If a KKK member came in and asked for a cake with a burning Cross on it?

If a Satanist came in and asked for a cake with satanic inscriptions?

Please answer this.

I’m so distraught over the many misconceptions people have of these people.

I think your distress is caused by your own misconceptions.

You are defending those who have caused great harm to Christian business owners, as well as helped in the effort of Christian persecution.

You need a reality check.

We all have every opportunity placed before us to serve and love these people who are lost and in need of Christ, yet we blow it every time in the name of “our rights”!

We are not going to help the lost by condoning sinful lifestyles.

You are deceived if you think that is the case.

We are no different than they are in this respect!

Speak for yourself, I am a born again believer, a new creature, and a stranger and pilgrim in this world. This world is not my home, and I am not a part of it.

Are you a Christian? If so, then....you are different than the lost.

And those engaged in sinful patterns of lifestyle evidence they have no concern for obedience to God. And if you are condoning and defending those lifestyles, then you are doing the exact opposite of what you pine about here.

In Texas, somebody placed a sign in their restaurant window, proudly stating “We don’t serve gays”….and posed proudly for this shot that went viral. I was so disgusted and saddened by it.

While I might think this to be a bit overboard, and probably done with malicious intent...how is that relevant to anything I have said or the particular case in view?

So what?

What you should be disgusted with is homosexuality, Christian persecution, and actions of the government which violate Constitutional rights.

You should be disgusted that you would defend homosexuals and speak evil about Christians. I know I am.

Homosexuals are not going there to “commit lewd acts”, they are going there to eat!!!!!!!

And they can eat all they want as long as they don't broadcast their sin.

I doubt this establishment would put up with drunks and drug addicts either.

Homsexuals are not going into a bakery to “perforom sexual perversions”, they are going there to order a cake!!!!

It's a ridiculous argument.

You need to turn off MSNBC and start reading your Bible.

What they did was ask a baker to make a cake for a homosexual marriage, they refused based on religious principle, and their religious rights were thrown out in preference for a sinful and ungodly lifestyle.

To treat them as we do is UNGODLY!.....

I treat everyone the same, so speak for yourself. I do not hate gays, nor treat them as different from any other sinner.

But that is not the point. The point is that I am not going to in any way condone the practice, just as the shop owners did not.

I'll tell what is ungodly...defending homosexuals and condemning Christians.

and I understand the argument that…”Well they treat US ungodly!!!”,

And that is a lie.

Some may, that does not mean all do.

I have never had a discussion, to date, with a homosexual that was not civil on both sides. Never.

So perhaps you ought to find a gay forum where this kind of misrepresentation of Christians might be welcome.

but as Christians, WE are the ones without excuse here;

Again...speak for yourself.

And you can, because you have no excuse for the propaganda you present here.

Your views are liberal and they are not Biblical.

for I KNOW not ONE of us would respond with that when God asks us “Why”?

?

My conscience is clear. And it will remain clear as long as I stand firm in Biblical and Christian Principles.

Yours, on the other hand...

I understand or desire to have religious rights and freedoms. I do. But I understand that we are here to SERVE others.

You don't seem to understand very much.

We do not serve others by condoning sin. The only thing you will accomplish is to pad the conscience of those who are already rejecting the conviction God seeks to bring in regards to sin.

Serving others does not mean we participate in their “lewd acts”.

Nor does it mean we (1) condone their lifestyles or (2) condemn those who stand firm in the Faith of Christ.

It means we serve them just as we are commissioned to serve EVERY other sinner that comes our way.

Consider yourself to have been served.

I’m sorry, I just had to get this off my chest,

I would say "I hope you feel better," but I can't. Your views are unbiblical, antichristian, and pro homosexual.

You can pat yourself on the back and think your liberal views are reasonable, but I can tell you this, you are a poor excuse for an advocate and are the picture of why America is in the state it is in today.

You and other liberals like you can be personally thanked for the advancement of the Homosexual Agenda and the decline of morality in America. You have bought into the propaganda, and this is what a government that seeks to change laws feeds on. This is how certain Presidents make it into Office.

And this is why people are dying and going into eternal punishment, because so-called Christians tell them there is nothing wrong with their lifestyle.

and I pray nothing but God’s best for you all.

But you don't want what is best for either Christians or Homosexuals?

You said they did not harm...do you still believe that?


God bless.

 

[Jayoish]

Thank God we have the ultimate victory in Jesus Christ because democrats will not allow Christianity to be triumphant on this side of Heaven as long as they're in charge.

This is a ignorant statement, this world is corrupt and it doesn't matter what party is in there, Sin is prevalent and will prevail. The world loves sin and seeketh after selfish desires. Self gratification is the state of the word, today!!!

 

[Lis45]

First, how do you see that no harm has been done when their business has closed, they have been fined $135,000, and have had a gag order issued?

Sorry, Lis45, but you have bought into the liberal arguments that promote homosexuality.

Secondly, as a business owner, I can tell you without doubt that I reserve the right to serve anyone I choose, and if those reasons are because the prospective customer violates Christian Principles, my right to deny service is a Constitutional Right.





If you mean signs like "No Blacks served here," I would remind you that Scripture does not condemn being black, nor does Scripture condone racism.

So you are seriously in error to draw a parallel and conclude a business owner cannot refuse service for Religious reasons.




Sorry, but you are only emphasizing my point. That is the point. You don't go into a store where it is known what services or products are offered, and demand something you already know they don't offer.

Forget the ABC Cake company, go into an ABC store and demand an Icee, lol. Go into K-mart and demand a Long Island Ice Tea. and then charge them with discriminating against drunks.

A more accurate parallel would be to go into a Christian Church and demand they preach a positive message about Satan.

I can imagine there are Muslim and Jewish owned establishments that cater who do not use pork products. How many non-Jewish or non-Muslims have gone in their demanding they cater using pork?

That is the parallel. It would be forcing someone to engage in behavior that violates their religious liberty. It's either do it, or face the consequences.

And that is what has happened in this case.

And you have been deceived if you think the homosexuals are the ones being persecuted.




I do.

I once refused to engage in Insurance Fraud, because it violated my Christian beliefs.

I do not refuse homosexuals service, but none of the services I provide are used in homosexual activities, as a wedding cake is.

Marriage is sacred to Christians, and we do not have a Biblical support or exhortation to in any way condone or do anything that would legitimize homosexual marriage.




And as mentioned, people do not usually broadcast their sins.

Try reading this again:







And that is exactly what the homosexuals did. They came into an establishment that makes wedding cakes, and wanted a wedding cake for their wedding. They broadcast their sin.

Or have you been deceived to the point where you do not think homosexuality is a sin?

We are not talking about a general knowledge that all men sin, but a specific event in which the sin was not only brought into the public, but the wishes of the owners based on Religious Belief was completely tossed out the window.

Why don't you go counsel the homosexuals that there are quite a few stores that would be more than happy to make their cake for them. Instead...you pose the Christians as being wrong because they stood firm in their beliefs.

Are you a Christian?




Well read the article, then you will be introduced to two who did being their lifestyle into the public eye.

You are imposing irrelevant issues into this, and perhaps it is because you spend so much time with homosexuals. No-one said they were perverts except you. No-one brought up "every customer knowing their business"...except you.

And that is exactly how the propaganda of the Homosexual Agenda is furthered, by people like you.

All I said was that the business owners have rights, and I wish I was that cake shop owner, because it would certainly still be an ongoing issue. No-one is going to force me to violate the principles I hold, not homosexuals, and not the government.

Who was it that brought this into the media? The shop owners? Or the homosexuals?




Great. They were told they would need to go elsewhere. End of story, right?

If a heterosexual came in and asked for a cake for a Stag Party that had naked women on it, would the owner have the right to refuse them service?

If a KKK member came in and asked for a cake with a burning Cross on it?

If a Satanist came in and asked for a cake with satanic inscriptions?

Please answer this.




I think your distress is caused by your own misconceptions.

You are defending those who have caused great harm to Christian business owners, as well as helped in the effort of Christian persecution.

You need a reality check.




We are not going to help the lost by condoning sinful lifestyles.

You are deceived if you think that is the case.




Speak for yourself, I am a born again believer, a new creature, and a stranger and pilgrim in this world. This world is not my home, and I am not a part of it.

Are you a Christian? If so, then....you are different than the lost.

And those engaged in sinful patterns of lifestyle evidence they have no concern for obedience to God. And if you are condoning and defending those lifestyles, then you are doing the exact opposite of what you pine about here.




While I might think this to be a bit overboard, and probably done with malicious intent...how is that relevant to anything I have said or the particular case in view?

So what?

What you should be disgusted with is homosexuality, Christian persecution, and actions of the government which violate Constitutional rights.

You should be disgusted that you would defend homosexuals and speak evil about Christians. I know I am.




And they can eat all they want as long as they don't broadcast their sin.

I doubt this establishment would put up with drunks and drug addicts either.




It's a ridiculous argument.

You need to turn off MSNBC and start reading your Bible.

What they did was ask a baker to make a cake for a homosexual marriage, they refused based on religious principle, and their religious rights were thrown out in preference for a sinful and ungodly lifestyle.




I treat everyone the same, so speak for yourself. I do not hate gays, nor treat them as different from any other sinner.

But that is not the point. The point is that I am not going to in any way condone the practice, just as the shop owners did not.

I'll tell what is ungodly...defending homosexuals and condemning Christians.




And that is a lie.

Some may, that does not mean all do.

I have never had a discussion, to date, with a homosexual that was not civil on both sides. Never.

So perhaps you ought to find a gay forum where this kind of misrepresentation of Christians might be welcome.




Again...speak for yourself.

And you can, because you have no excuse for the propaganda you present here.

Your views are liberal and they are not Biblical.




?

My conscience is clear. And it will remain clear as long as I stand firm in Biblical and Christian Principles.

Yours, on the other hand...




You don't seem to understand very much.

We do not serve others by condoning sin. The only thing you will accomplish is to pad the conscience of those who are already rejecting the conviction God seeks to bring in regards to sin.





Nor does it mean we (1) condone their lifestyles or (2) condemn those who stand firm in the Faith of Christ.




Consider yourself to have been served.






I would say "I hope you feel better," but I can't. Your views are unbiblical, antichristian, and pro homosexual.

You can pat yourself on the back and think your liberal views are reasonable, but I can tell you this, you are a poor excuse for an advocate and are the picture of why America is in the state it is in today.

You and other liberals like you can be personally thanked for the advancement of the Homosexual Agenda and the decline of morality in America. You have bought into the propaganda, and this is what a government that seeks to change laws feeds on. This is how certain Presidents make it into Office.

And this is why people are dying and going into eternal punishment, because so-called Christians tell them there is nothing wrong with their lifestyle.




But you don't want what is best for either Christians or Homosexuals?

You said they did not harm...do you still believe that?


God bless.

You know, I have to laugh at most of your responses because they are very, well...hypocritical. For the record, I don't watch MSNBC. I "support" homosexual citizens as any other citizens because I believe we have the duty to treat each other with respect as human beings. The difference between you and I is that I separate the sinner from the sin, just as God Himself does. It doesn't mean I believe homosexuality is NOT sin. And just because I disagree with some points you made doesn't make me a promoter of "liberal" or "homosexual agenda" either.

My point was you have a customer coming in to order a cake, your service is to make that cake. I do NOT believe you are condoning the homosexual lifestyle by making that cake. You are merely providing a service that you were paid for. You're not marrying them, you're not in the wedding, your not even going to the wedding...so where's the "condoning"??? There is none.

If you want to be a Christian bakery and serve only Christians, fine. Promote yourself as a Christian business who only serves Christians...if you are promoting service to the general public, then don't place one person's value as a customer and human being above another's. That's what is disgusting to me. I don't know where you get me disagreeing with this case (or the Kim Davis case for that matter) as supporting the persecution of Christians. That's laughable. I'm not going to defend a "persecution" that's not truly a "persecution". I have my debates with gays over how some of them respond to Christians as well...and trust me, they can be just as stoking as this one. I'm just so sick and tired of the "agenda" argument on both sides, because honestly? Many on both sides have their own "agenda", and NEITHER is always right...and it's taking away from what God wants of us...to reach a lost world.

I'm shocked that you would even have the audacity to blame "people like me" for homosexuals dying and going to "eternal punishment" because "so called Christians" tell them there's nothing wrong with their lifestyle? (which is by the way laughable since I could just as well say there are a number of homosexuals who have committed suicide because people "like you" abhor them so much and are in denial that you do. Talk about sending someone straight to hell)

While we're at it, let's set the record straight. When I actually take the time to BEFRIEND a homosexual.....not just DEBATE??? I am in a place where I can share the news of Christ and who He is and what He has done for me...and what He wants to do for them...which is save them from their sin...and whether they accept or reject? They at least know by then that they are truly loved as a human being either way. It's called MUTUAL RESPECT..and it's something we have both earned from each other because we took the time to. It is no different in how I relate to anyone else, Christian or not.

I really don't care what you call me. I know what my God and King calls me. My conscience is clear too, and I am His. And I absolutely believe in the bible. I just don't always believe how some Christians twist its meaning to excuse their own behavior towards other people, suffer consequences, then claim persecution, whether they be gay or not. You think I "condemn" the bakers? What do you mean "condemn"? I don't think it's right that they had to close their bakery. I do agree with whatever lawful consequences there are for their actions though, because whether they thought they were doing the right thing or not, they absolutely discriminated and humiliated that customer, and I would defend that whether they were Christian, gay, Muslim, or Hindu for all I care. You know, I have read some of the most hurrendous things posted by some of you in your own views...yet you call me/my views "unbiblical, unchristian, and pro-homosexual" because of where I stand on these issues. Yet I find them to be very biblical, and Pro-God. I don't identify as a liberal or a conservative, yet each side accuses me of being the other. It's crazy!! I have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and I love Him with all of my heart, soul, mind, and strength. It is because of His love for me that I can love another who is "undeserving"...no matter who they are. Whether you want to accept it or not, we'll be in eternity together, with God.

 

[Mitspa]

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You know, I have to laugh at most of your responses because they are very, well...hypocritical. For the record, I don't watch MSNBC. I "support" homosexual citizens as any other citizens because I believe we have the duty to treat each other with respect as human beings. The difference between you and I is that I separate the sinner from the sin, just as God Himself does. It doesn't mean I believe homosexuality is NOT sin. And just because I disagree with some points you made doesn't make me a promoter of "liberal" or "homosexual agenda" either.

My point was you have a customer coming in to order a cake, your service is to make that cake. I do NOT believe you are condoning the homosexual lifestyle by making that cake. You are merely providing a service that you were paid for. You're not marrying them, you're not in the wedding, your not even going to the wedding...so where's the "condoning"??? There is none.

If you want to be a Christian bakery and serve only Christians, fine. Promote yourself as a Christian business who only serves Christians...if you are promoting service to the general public, then don't place one person's value as a customer and human being above another's. That's what is disgusting to me. I don't know where you get me disagreeing with this case (or the Kim Davis case for that matter) as supporting the persecution of Christians. That's laughable. I'm not going to defend a "persecution" that's not truly a "persecution". I have my debates with gays over how some of them respond to Christians as well...and trust me, they can be just as stoking as this one. I'm just so sick and tired of the "agenda" argument on both sides, because honestly? Many on both sides have their own "agenda", and NEITHER is always right...and it's taking away from what God wants of us...to reach a lost world.

I'm shocked that you would even have the audacity to blame "people like me" for homosexuals dying and going to "eternal punishment" because "so called Christians" tell them there's nothing wrong with their lifestyle? (which is by the way laughable since I could just as well say there are a number of homosexuals who have committed suicide because people "like you" abhor them so much and are in denial that you do. Talk about sending someone straight to hell)

While we're at it, let's set the record straight. When I actually take the time to BEFRIEND a homosexual.....not just DEBATE??? I am in a place where I can share the news of Christ and who He is and what He has done for me...and what He wants to do for them...which is save them from their sin...and whether they accept or reject? They at least know by then that they are truly loved as a human being either way. It's called MUTUAL RESPECT..and it's something we have both earned from each other because we took the time to. It is no different in how I relate to anyone else, Christian or not.

I really don't care what you call me. I know what my God and King calls me. My conscience is clear too, and I am His. And I absolutely believe in the bible. I just don't always believe how some Christians twist its meaning to excuse their own behavior towards other people, suffer consequences, then claim persecution, whether they be gay or not. You think I "condemn" the bakers? What do you mean "condemn"? I don't think it's right that they had to close their bakery. I do agree with whatever lawful consequences there are for their actions though, because whether they thought they were doing the right thing or not, they absolutely discriminated and humiliated that customer, and I would defend that whether they were Christian, gay, Muslim, or Hindu for all I care. You know, I have read some of the most hurrendous things posted by some of you in your own views...yet you call me/my views "unbiblical, unchristian, and pro-homosexual" because of where I stand on these issues. Yet I find them to be very biblical, and Pro-God. I don't identify as a liberal or a conservative, yet each side accuses me of being the other. It's crazy!! I have been saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and I love Him with all of my heart, soul, mind, and strength. It is because of His love for me that I can love another who is "undeserving"...no matter who they are. Whether you want to accept it or not, we'll be in eternity together, with God.

If I get the time, I may respond to this in detail, but, seeing that you have ignored most points raised, not sure that would do any good.

You run on false premise in most of your declarations, a primary false premise being that all Christians bash homosexuals.

Your diatribe implies that, though I guess you are the exception. Understand that there has never been the first discussion I have had with a homosexual that was uncivil, and I have never treated them the way you claim they are all treated.

You refuse to address the points raised, so I will just point out one lie you presented:

Originally Posted by Lis45
I don’t believe placing signs to refuse service to ANYONE that is not doing anything to physical harm your place of business is the reasonable thing to do.

This is a lie on several points, the first being that this is a case in which the harm is clear to any who care to recognize it.

Why don't you comment on this?

Secondly, it obscures the fact that homosexuality is not only harmful to those involved in it on a spiritual level...it is physically harmful.

Third, you create a false understanding of our liberty in this country not to have the views of other belief systems (and homosexuality is definitely tied to a belief system) forced on us or our own beliefs trodden on in preference to those of others. These people, as well as the government, have seriously violated the rights of these store owners.

You say above...

Originally Posted by Lis45
I don’t believe placing signs to refuse service to ANYONE that is not doing anything to physical harm your place of business is the reasonable thing to do.

...then you contradict yourself by saying...

If you want to be a Christian bakery and serve only Christians, fine. Promote yourself as a Christian business who only serves Christians...if you are promoting service to the general public, then don't place one person's value as a customer and human being above another's.

So now you are okay with posting a sign?

What you don't understand is that you are trying to impose your will on the store owners. They are open to the public, but they have the right to refuse service to those who violate their religious beliefs.

Many establishments use to have signs that said "We reserve the right to refuse service." And that is their right. No shirt on...no service. No shoes...no service. And that one refuses service based on religious belief is a far more serious matter than refusing based on clothing.

How about responding to the points?

Lastly, while I am glad you are not hostile to homosexuals, I also have to question your declaration that you have many of them. Exactly what kind of life do you have where you have opportunity to make many homosexual friends? Do you work somewhere that has a lot of homosexuals coming there?

There is a t-shirt that has on the front, "Want to know your future?" And on the back it states "...show me your friends.

Please explain how a professing Christian can get to the point where they defend homosexuals and homosexuality (by implication) and condemn Christians?

That is something I find hard to understand.

That you would present misinformation in a public setting concerning Christians, and condemn them as a whole as being hateful to homosexuals?

I am not.


God bless.

 

[Jayoish]

I don’t believe placing signs to refuse service to ANYONE that is not doing anything to physical harm your place of business is the reasonable thing to do. History itself as shown how devastating this practice has been.
I have to disagree with your “Muslim caterer serving pork” example in relation to the bakery scenario, because of this….You would not go into K-Mart and expect to purchase a product sold only at Nordstrom….however, you would go into ABC Cake bakery and expect to purchase the same product as you could at DEF Cake bakery. When you have a business that serves the public, you cannot and should not be permitted to pick and choose who you will “serve” and who you will not. Every client you serve is a sinner, and as a Christian, you are (or should be) aware of that without having them to “broadcast” it. Honestly, I don’t know one homosexual (and I know plenty) who would EVER enter a place of business and say, “Guess what! I’m a homosexual pervert who lives only to commit sexual sin and I just want every customer you come across to know all about me and my personal life and choices”. No. They simply go in and request a product or service, just like anyone else would.
I’m so distraught over the many misconceptions people have of these people. We all have every opportunity placed before us to serve and love these people who are lost and in need of Christ, yet we blow it every time in the name of “our rights”! We are no different than they are in this respect!
In Texas, somebody placed a sign in their restaurant window, proudly stating “We don’t serve gays”….and posed proudly for this shot that went viral. I was so disgusted and saddened by it. Homosexuals are not going there to “commit lewd acts”, they are going there to eat!!!!!!! Homsexuals are not going into a bakery to “perforom sexual perversions”, they are going there to order a cake!!!! To treat them as we do is UNGODLY!.....and I understand the argument that…”Well they treat US ungodly!!!”, but as Christians, WE are the ones without excuse here; for I KNOW not ONE of us would respond with that when God asks us “Why”?
I understand or desire to have religious rights and freedoms. I do. But I understand that we are here to SERVE others. Serving others does not mean we participate in their “lewd acts”. It means we serve them just as we are commissioned to serve EVERY other sinner that comes our way.

I’m sorry, I just had to get this off my chest, and I pray nothing but God’s best for you all.

Lis45, I don't exactly agree with you. I feel you are a little off on what your part should be as a true Christian, and I say it this way because the word is a joke these days. My understanding of this, as God's servant is as following:

I think a lot of these so-called Christians are taking thing overboard for the most part. Meaning, if you have a hardware store, why would you refuse to sell to gay people. That is stupid, it is not like you are supporting or upholding their sins, in any form or fashion. Why would you be so ignorant? However, the woman who went to jail because she refused to provide a marriage license to the gay couple, or a minister who refuse to marry them, then that I understand. You can't not partake in their sins or GOD will deal with you.

Now, Lis45, I took your posting as saying we should support their sin. When the bible states that we should be not apart of the filthiness of the world.
II Corinthians 6:17:
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

Now, the cake incident, I think I would have sold them a cake, because it doesn't say that I support them; however, if they wanted writing of their occasional on it, I would have explained to them that I could not it. I would explain to them that due to my beliefs and gave them their option, to purchase the supplies to put their own engraving on it, or take it to another cake place to do, or they could purchase from another bakery who will be able to provide the full service. People are very ignorant to think that they can't service them at all, it depends on the type of service. If that service compromise you with your GOD, then the law should not infringe on your freedom of religion, just like theirs. A lot of so-called Christian will be persecuted all because of the lack of knowledge. The bible tells us to be wise and humble.
Matthew 10:16:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Well the lady who owned the cake shop was not wise at all in her dealings. She should not have refused service to them, only explain that she will not be able to write their announcements on the cake.
Anyway, if I am wrong Lis45, please clarify what you are saying because GOD is looking for people who can stand for him, but not foolishly as some of these people has been doing.


Jayoish