Basic facts on faith.

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"Christ is formed in our hearts by faith."

So it's important to know exactly what faith is and how it's applied to have Christ formed in our hearts.

There was some trouble translating faith, pistis, into the English language. And also the corresponding verb to pistis, pisteuo. The English language doesn't have a corresponding verb to the noun faith like the Greek does. So to correctly translate the word pisteuo which describes how we are to apply faith, it takes some extra work.

The English language tends to limit faith to the mind, to belief, to the emotions, to confidence or trust. And it leaves the " will" , to another word which is obedience. The English language thus sets free faith from work. The Greek doesn't allow that. You don't have " pistis" , ( faith) until you added the " will" and hung the body in continuing action on what the mind believed and what the heart had confidence in. It's an expression of the whole man.

Maybe I'm taking to big a bite at the apple.

Here is the Vines complete definition of pisteuo. Pisteuo is the application of the word faith. Please read all of it.


"The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are

(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12;

(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12;

(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:20-Romans 4:21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY."

Is this acceptable in the midst of todays called out ones?
 
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There is a deeper issue here than Greek.

Here, our good Calvinist brother is equating the word "will" with "works."

He doesn't prove this connection; he merely injects it, presupposes it.
The Calvinist requires this presupposition, this definition, in order to maintain his position.
But that presupposition is not agreed upon by all, and the rest of us simply disagree and challenge it.
You don't get to just proclaim it, willy nilly, as a given.
: )

One of the fundamental issues between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, is that of equating "will" with "works".
I don't want to spend the rest of my life debating my good Calvinists brothers, endlessly, on the same narrow range of issues.
Although I DO disagree with them (on a few things) i do love them and respect them.
But here we are again.

The Will vs Works Issue:
The Calvinist views any assertion of the will, even if only an act of will in the mind or heart, to be a "work."
But this is not, to the best of my understanding, how the NT speaks of works.
I think this is a serious and fundamental issue, and one of the primary ones upon which we disagree.

Conclusion:
1.) The discussion of Greek in this post is irrelevant to the fundamental and underlying issue.
2.) The fundamental, underlying issue, isn't about whether or not a Greek word refers to "will"... it's about what the word "will" MEANS.
And if we define "will" as being a work, then we are, by necessity, also required to define the word "work" - then we're back to the same old argument about "works". What precisely is, and is not, a work?
3.) The fundamental, underlying issue, once again, always again, endlessly over and over, is HOW WE DEFINE "WORKS."


I know my Calvinists brothers will disagree on my position, but I don't think they'll disagree on my identification of this underlying issue.

God Bless, and have a wonderful Sunday.


.
Works are defined in the Greek as toil and effort.

I'm not a Calvinist, but you make some good points. My work and effort, the letting loose of my will is 100% in faith, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. 90 % courage, 5% endurance, and 5% everything else.
 
Maybe I'm taking to big a bite at the apple.

Here is the Vines complete definition of pisteuo. Pisteuo is the application of the word faith. Please read all of it.


"The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are

(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12;

(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12;

(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:20-Romans 4:21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY."

Is this acceptable in the midst of todays called out ones?

Number 1) " a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth. "

A full acknowledgement of Gods revelation of truth. Anyone have that?

What does that mean, a full acknowledgement of God revelation of truth?
 
That's a shame.

You enjoy someone who wilfully repeatedly sins and spreads lies.
Then condemns those who overcome those lies with truth.

I can certainly forgive the sinful depravity in that worship and furtherance of a fallen agenda.

However,we are to rebuke sin. And those who would pursue furtherance of that fallen behavior within the community.
We are the temple that carries the holy spirit within ourselves.

Gathered as two or more we are in every sense the church,by definition.

If in a building called a church, we all were gathered,would we tolerate one who comes through the door spouting hateful words against one of our own?

"Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices "


"The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool."

"The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace. "
This is not a local congregation of saints, and no one here has authority over the souls of others under their care. Not a church.

You have made my points for me in your response.

Grace and peace.
 
Now we're seeing AI like znp, thats function seems to be to disrupt.

To call someone an AI, in order to discredit all their posts and views, is the very definition of an ad hominem argument.

An ad hominem like this is nothing but a logical fallacy, and a very untoward and personal attack, unless you want to present some scientific evidence to prove "he" is only an "it." Can you present proof?

To call someone AI on the grounds he disrupts your threads, or that he posts too much, is an absurd claim. Real humans have been disruptive, and overly talkative, since God created us. On this basis, I could claim you're an AI for disrupting me when you post your inevitable rebuttal.
: )

Please refrain from responding with defenses about the existence of AI, and the profusion of bots.
We all know these things exist, but you're speaking of one particular member.
This requires more than disdain or hunches.

If you have proof of something, then you need to show it.
If you don't like him, that's irrelevant.

He sometimes irritates me too.
So what?
: )
 
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To call someone an AI, in order to discredit all their posts and views, is the very definition of an ad hominem argument.

An ad hominem like this is nothing but a logical fallacy, and a very untoward and personal attack, unless you want to present some scientific evidence to prove "he" is only an "it." Can you do this? Can you present proof? I think if you could, you would have already done so.

To call someone AI on the grounds he disrupts your threads, or that he posts too much, is an absurd claim. Real humans have been disruptive, and overly talkative, since God created us. On this basis, I could claim you're an AI for disrupting me when you post your inevitable rebuttal. It's all just absurd.

Please don't respond with defenses about the existence of AI, and the profusion of bots.
We all know these things exist, but you're speaking of one particular member.
This requires more than disdain or hunches.

If you have proof of something, then show it.
If you don't like him, that's irrelevant.

He sometimes irritates me too.
So what?
: )

A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
 
A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

Brother, I appreciate you giving an intelligent response which was also very constrained and polite.

However, although the response was intelligent, and biblically based, does not mean it was adequate for the task.


We don't really know his life.

You have a great day.
 
BTW, we shouldn't allow someone to derail this thread with their angst at being rebuked for their sins in a different thread.
If you are going to rebuke me for my sins you must tell me what my sins are.

Right now you are the one that has violated the Lord's word.

1. You were supposed to contact me through direct message if you thought I was lying or manufacturing lies.

2. If I ignored you then you were supposed to report this and let the moderators talk to me.

You didn't do either. No one has confirmed your word. What was the lie that I manufactured? You haven't told anyone.

Instead you are arrogant to act like judge and jury and declare that I have been manufacturing lies. Was I told what my offending post was? No. Was I told what the "lie" was that I had manufactured? No. Was I given a chance to speak for myself? No. Even the Romans gave Paul a chance to speak for himself.

You now say I have "sinned" and "been rebuked'. That is the height of arrogance. Each one of us must give an account for our words and everything you have done so far has been anathema to the Lord. I have repeatedly tried to get you to let me know what the post was and what the "lie" was so I could see what the issue was and instead of responding to me you continue to slander me.
 
That's a shame.

You enjoy someone who wilfully repeatedly sins and spreads lies.
Then condemns those who overcome those lies with truth.

I can certainly forgive the sinful depravity in that worship and furtherance of a fallen agenda.

However,we are to rebuke sin. And those who would pursue furtherance of that fallen behavior within the community.
We are the temple that carries the holy spirit within ourselves.

Gathered as two or more we are in every sense the church,by definition.

If in a building called a church, we all were gathered,would we tolerate one who comes through the door spouting hateful words against one of our own?

"Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices "


"The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool."

"The righteous hates falsehood, but the wicked brings shame and disgrace. "
You accuse me of "willfully repeatedly sins and spreads lies". Please point out the posts that you are referring to and identify the sins and lies. You are the one who is slandering me and I have asked you repeatedly to identify the posts and the lies so I can respond.
 
Brother, I appreciate you giving an intelligent response which was also very constrained and polite.

However, although the response was intelligent, and biblically based, does not mean it was adequate for the task.


We don't really know his life.

You have a great day.

Thanks for being nice , and I really don't want to damage my thread anymore than it's already sustained.

I woke up to znp posting about someone who called him a liar on some other thread.. I asked him please to take it to a private message or forgive him. He then proceeds to tell me he can't, continuing to derailing my thread, which suspiciously makes most everyone responding to my thread happy.

I then asked Cameron nicely if someone with 50000 posts in 6 years could be legit.

Cameron proceeded to lambaste me saying I needed to be humbled.

Now your nicely saying that I shouldn't be disrespectful to the other members? Insinuating im somehow at fault here.

I just want to bear witness to my faith, and find others that have had similar experiences. And here we are, talking about the me being the problem here.

I appreciate this site, whoever is in charge gives me the opportunity to express my faith with proof of facts. Your one of the senior members , where's the etiquette, overseers of the rules? I'm the one who was disrespected, not ZNP.

Can I get back to bearing witness of Him? Or is this thread already dead and I just don't know it?
 
Thanks for being nice , and I really don't want to damage my thread anymore than it's already sustained.

I woke up to znp posting about someone who called him a liar on some other thread.. I asked him please to take it to a private message or forgive him. He then proceeds to tell me he can't, continuing to derailing my thread, which suspiciously makes most everyone responding to my thread happy.

I then asked Cameron nicely if someone with 50000 posts in 6 years could be legit.

Cameron proceeded to lambaste me saying I needed to be humbled.

Now your nicely saying that I shouldn't be disrespectful to the other members? Insinuating im somehow at fault here.

I just want to bear witness to my faith, and find others that have had similar experiences. And here we are, talking about the me being the problem here.

I appreciate this site, whoever is in charge gives me the opportunity to express my faith with proof of facts. Your one of the senior members , where's the etiquette, overseers of the rules? I'm the one who was disrespected, not ZNP.

Can I get back to bearing witness of Him? Or is this thread already dead and I just don't know it?
I didn't lambaste you. The post you responded to was addressed to someone else. The post I did address to you wasn't responded to.
 
Actually those definitions are in the 3rd post.

Do you agree with them?
Your OP is making a category error. You are confusing the definition of a word with the implications of a word. Faith in Scripture is often surrounded by ideas like obedience, perseverance, and intent, but those ideas belong to the context, not to the lexical meaning of the word itself. The Greek term pistis simply denotes belief, trust, or confidence—an act of the mind—while the will and its resulting actions arise from the author’s argument, not from the definition of the word. When readers confuse contextual associations with semantic content, they begin smuggling obedience or motive into the meaning of pistis, as though faith itself were a volitional act rather than a mental assent. Good exegesis keeps these categories distinct: the lexicon tells us what the word says, the context tells us what the word means, and theology tells us whether the idea is true. Without that discipline, we risk attributing to the word “faith” things that belong to its neighborhood, not its definition.

One of the clearest ways to see that faith belongs to the mind rather than the will is to look at how human beings begin life. A newborn does not choose to believe his mother; he is hardwired by God with the cognitive capacity to receive her voice, trust her presence, and accept her signals as true. That instinctive belief is not an act of volition—it is an act of cognition. If belief required a prior decision of the will, no child could ever learn language, receive instruction, or build knowledge, because every step of education depends on the mind’s innate ability to accept information from another person. Faith, in its lexical sense, works the same way: it is mental assent, the mind’s God‑given capacity to recognize and affirm truth. The will may respond to what the mind believes, but it does not create belief. Faith is the foundation upon which obedience may be built, not the product of obedience itself.

This is the crucial distinction: faith belongs to the mind, but unbelief belongs to the will. God has hardwired every human being with the innate capacity to recognize truth when it is presented—just as a newborn instinctively receives his mother’s voice, presence, and signals without choosing to do so. Belief is not a volitional achievement; it is a cognitive reflex built into us by our Creator so that learning, language, and knowledge can accumulate from the very first day of life. But unbelief is different. Unbelief is not a failure of cognition; it is a refusal of the will. When Paul says in Romans 1 that humanity “knew God” yet “suppressed the truth,” he is describing a deliberate act of resistance against what the mind already acknowledges. Unbelief is the stubborn decision to reject what one knows to be true. Faith is mental assent; unbelief is intentional suppression. One is a function of the mind, the other a function of the will.
 
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I don't understand this comment. However, I have told the moderators that it should be a requirement that any time someone claims a person on this forum has said something untrue, that they say what that thing is and reference the post where they said it. If this is not a standing rule then it opens the door for all kinds of slander. Also, it doesn't help that people on this forum tolerate this behavior. I don't have an issue with calling out things that are false or untrue, but I do have an issue with slander. If I do not know what it was that he is referring to I have no way to respond. Therefore asking him to clarify is my only way to respond. But then what do you do if he refuses to hear you and ignores this request. Matthew 18 is clear, and the path is clear.

1. If you have an issue with a post you should DM the person

if they ignore you then by all means

2. Respond to the offending post in the thread and report it to the moderators.

then

3. If he refuses to listen to you on that thread, go to two or three other threads and make the request.

Do not ignore this. Claiming you are "forgiving" them is baloney. He never asked for forgiveness, it is arrogant to say I am forgiving him. The issue is what was said that he is saying untrue. Did I make a mistake, was the post vague so that it could be misunderstood, etc. If it turns out that the post was not vague, and there was nothing untrue, then this is slander and he is the one who needs to repent.

4. If he continues to ignore the moderators then you have to block his access to the forum.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

My apologies for insinuating your an Ai.
 
Now your nicely saying that I shouldn't be disrespectful to the other members? Insinuating im somehow at fault here.


I never used the word disrespectful, and I never brought up the moral issue of YOU being disrespectful.
I brought up the issue of an ad hominem argument... which is a logic problem.

People tend to get emotional, and bent out of shape around CC (and everywhere else in the world too) and say things that are disrespectful. So if you only want to make a case that you were disrespected... well there's a very high probability of that, lol. I don't even need to go look. It happens.

Anyway, I didn't look through this thread, or any other threads, closely enough to see who was at fault.
I was only pointing out a logic problem with your claim about AI.
That's all.
Once emotions run high, it's common for everyone to lose their composure, so eventually everyone is at fault.
To just guess, I'd say it's likely that's what happened.
But I'm making no pronouncements, and this stuff happens so often I'm not going to investigate it.

And for the record, as a "senior member"... I run absolutely nothing.
I'm in charge of nada.
: )

Take care.
 
Your OP is making a category error. You are confusing the definition of a word with the implications of a word. Faith in Scripture is often surrounded by ideas like obedience, perseverance, and intent, but those ideas belong to the context, not to the lexical meaning of the word itself. The Greek term pistis simply denotes belief, trust, or confidence—an act of the mind—while the will and its resulting actions arise from the author’s argument, not from the definition of the word. When readers confuse contextual associations with semantic content, they begin smuggling obedience or motive into the meaning of pistis, as though faith itself were a volitional act rather than a mental assent. Good exegesis keeps these categories distinct: the lexicon tells us what the word says, the context tells us what the word means, and theology tells us whether the idea is true. Without that discipline, we risk attributing to the word “faith” things that belong to its neighborhood, not its definition.

One of the clearest ways to see that faith belongs to the mind rather than the will is to look at how human beings begin life. A newborn does not choose to believe his mother; he is hardwired by God with the cognitive capacity to receive her voice, trust her presence, and accept her signals as true. That instinctive belief is not an act of volition—it is an act of cognition. If belief required a prior decision of the will, no child could ever learn language, receive instruction, or build knowledge, because every step of education depends on the mind’s innate ability to accept information from another person. Faith, in its lexical sense, works the same way: it is mental assent, the mind’s God‑given capacity to recognize and affirm truth. The will may respond to what the mind believes, but it does not create belief. Faith is the foundation upon which obedience may be built, not the product of obedience itself.

This is the crucial distinction: faith belongs to the mind, but unbelief belongs to the will. God has hardwired every human being with the innate capacity to recognize truth when it is presented—just as a newborn instinctively receives his mother’s voice, presence, and signals without choosing to do so. Belief is not a volitional achievement; it is a cognitive reflex built into us by our Creator so that learning, language, and knowledge can accumulate from the very first day of life. But unbelief is different. Unbelief is not a failure of cognition; it is a refusal of the will. When Paul says in Romans 1 that humanity “knew God” yet “suppressed the truth,” he is describing a deliberate act of resistance against what the mind already acknowledges. Unbelief is the stubborn decision to reject what one knows to be true. Faith is mental assent; unbelief is intentional suppression. One is a function of the mind, the other a function of the will.

I simply asked if you accept the Strongs and Vines definitions of pisteuo. Post 3.
 
Maybe I'm taking to big a bite at the apple.

Here is the Vines complete definition of pisteuo. Pisteuo is the application of the word faith. Please read all of it.


"The main elements in "faith" in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from "faith" in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are

(1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12;

(2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12;

(3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Corinthians 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good "faith" without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham's "faith" was not God's promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his "faith" rested on God Himself, Romans 4:17, Romans 4:20-Romans 4:21. See ASSURANCE, BELIEF, FAITHFULNESS, FIDELITY."

Is this acceptable in the midst of todays called out ones?

Bumped for Roger.

Do you agree with the Vines definition of pisteuo?