Believing on his name

[HeIsHere]

I don't need anything, but go ahead.

Audience: the disciples, Jesus is not giving instructions on how to stay saved.
A general overview of the passage.
Jesus is paralleling a spiritual situation to a material practice (vineyard keeping)

Positionally, we abide in Christ’s love totally and irrevocably (Rom. 8:37-38, cf., v. 28-38).

In John 15, branches being cast into a fire was the normal practice and expected end of dried branches—it has no intended reference to the fate of Christians. It is only an illustration of what Christians are like in a condition of non-abiding. They are as worthless to God for fruit bearing as dried branches—whose normal end is to be tossed into a fire.

There is a need to abide in Christ’s love relationally—in this area we all need encouragement, help and exhortation towards abiding—towards maintaining our love relationship with Christ and the obedience that flows from it.

 

[HeIsHere]

As well, Christ Jesus is the qualified vine dresser.
The vine dresser lifts up the branches that are low hanging.


This word airo has been translated as cut or take away in John 15:2, but makes much more sense to anyone who has had a garden to be "lifted up."
Mark 16:18 – They will pick up serpents…
Luke 5:24 – I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go…
Luke 17:13 – And they lifted up their voices and said…
John 5:8 – Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.”
John 11:41 – And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said…
Act 4:24 – And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord
Rev 10:5 – The angel … lifted up his right hand to heaven

 

[HeIsHere]

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only elite saints do but all genuine believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

It would be impossible to abide in Christ and never bear any fruit at all. Although all genuine believers are fruitful, not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

Yes, I see this as the vine dresser who loves his vine and works to make it fruitful.

Just as an aside, I have watched family members take care of grape vines, tomatoes etc., and there are things that are done to make it bear better fruit, so in that sense I do agree.

I also think Jesus is speaking to his disciples the "fruit" are not fruits of the spirit but the next disciples that the disciples will have in the future. (if that makes sense).

However our salvation is secure and is not dependent upon how well we abide.

 

[HeIsHere]

elite saints

 

[Beckworth]

I don't think it's strange that certain churches prefer not to use instruments of music in their worship. To each his own. What I said in post #95 was it seems strange to say that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament (instrumental music) is now an evil in the New Testament church.

And he is entitled to his opinion, but his opinion does not negate (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Ephesians 5:19 says "..speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "..admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." The word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." The root word of psalm means "to twitch, twang or pluck," such as pluck a string of a musical instrument."

From my church? I'll have to look for him on Sunday morning at my church. No wait a minute, he passed away in 1892. Charles Spurgeon was fond of smoking cigars.

Opinions vary, and I will continue to listen to Scripture. (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). Do you agree with Charles Spurgeon about the gospel? Charles Spurgeon strongly believed in the doctrine of "faith alone" for salvation, asserting that justification before God comes solely through placing trust in Jesus Christ, without any contribution from works. I agree with Charles Spurgeon about that much more critical issue, but you don't.

So, did these Baptist preachers condemn other folks for using instrumental music in their church? Like I said before, I don't find it strange that certain folks prefer not to use instrumental music in their church, but I do find it strange that something God thought was a blessing in the Old Testament is now evil in the New Testament church. Campbellites are legalistic about instrumental music in church, since they are very judgmental towards others that do use instrumental music in their church. Even accusing them of having left the faith of the apostles teaching. What a joke! The Restoration movement that gave birth to Campbellism and Mormonism is also a joke! But go ahead and continue to have singing without instrumental music and boast about it. Whatever makes you feel special and exalted. I've heard enough history lessons from Roman Catholics and Seventh Day Adventists to know better than to allow history to dictate my theology.

LOL! You have stayed true to the Bible (even though you promote a false gospel) but I am the one who has left the faith of the apostles teaching and the tradition of the early church simply because my church uses instrumental music during worship. How ridiculous! Your argument about the tradition of the early church sounds like the same argument that Roman Catholics make about church tradition. Do you realize how puffed up you sound right now? Roman Catholics get puffed up too when it comes to backing up their beliefs by using history. I can get multiple versions of church history from various churches. I will stick with SCRIPTURE ALONE which is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If you really like history, then I recommend you read, "Campbellism: Its History and Heresies" by Bob L Ross.

I don't find preferring not to use instrumental music during worship in church strange. To each his own. What I find strange is condemning instrumental music during worship in church then self-righteously judging others who use instrumental music in their church as leaving the faith of the apostles. That is legalistic! You basically judge me as condemned over this matter! Where does the Bible condemn instrumental music and others for using instrumental music in the NT? To the contrary we find. (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16)

I can see that the church of Christ has really done a number on you.

I have been discussing SCRIPTURE.
Would you like to discuss the church of Christ? Since you are not a member, I would be glad to introduce it to you.

 

[mailmandan]

I have been discussing SCRIPTURE.
Would you like to discuss the church of Christ? Since you are not a member, I would be glad to introduce it to you.

I am already a member of the Church, the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27; Colossians 1:18, 24). Not to be confused with a church building with the name "church of Christ" or any other name stamped on the front of it.

 

[Beckworth]

Isaiah 1:18 - “ ‘ Come now, let us REASON together’, says the Lord.” Bible discussion is good. I believe we all grow and learn from these studies—if we are discussing scripture and not only opinions.

Seeing how you reject Psalm 150, do you similarly reject other Psalms?

Psalm 23?

Psalm 91?

Shall I go on?

Your words, not mine. If you are going to represent me, please represent me honestly and fairly.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Audience: the disciples, Jesus is not giving instructions on how to stay saved.
A general overview of the passage.
Jesus is paralleling a spiritual situation to a material practice (vineyard keeping)

Positionally, we abide in Christ’s love totally and irrevocably (Rom. 8:37-38, cf., v. 28-38).

In John 15, branches being cast into a fire was the normal practice and expected end of dried branches—it has no intended reference to the fate of Christians. It is only an illustration of what Christians are like in a condition of non-abiding. They are as worthless to God for fruit bearing as dried branches—whose normal end is to be tossed into a fire.

There is a need to abide in Christ’s love relationally—in this area we all need encouragement, help and exhortation towards abiding—towards maintaining our love relationship with Christ and the obedience that flows from it.

That's your answer?

Something that you plagiarized from the John Ankerberg show?

Wow!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Plagiarism is the representation of another person's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work.[1][2][3] Although precise definitions vary depending on the institution,[4] in many countries and cultures plagiarism is considered a violation of academic integrity and journalistic ethics, as well as of social norms around learning, teaching, research, fairness, respect, and responsibility.[5] As such, a person or entity that is determined to have committed plagiarism is often subject to various punishments or sanctions, such as suspension, expulsion from school[6] or work,[7] fines,[8][9] imprisonment,[10][11] and other penalties.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Your words, not mine. If you are going to represent me, please represent me honestly and fairly.

Nope. Your words, and no misrepresentation on my part whatsoever.

Here is what you said in response to a quotation from Psalm 150.

Written to and about the Jews under the Old Testament. This not only does not apply to “Christians” but it was written BEFORE the church of Christ was in existence; even before Christ was born into the world.

Are you a Jew? No? Then this is not meant for you and it certainly is not instruction for CHRISTIANS. and in no way does it apply to the church of Christ.

You need to “learn how to RIGHTLY divide the word of God.” 2 Tim. 2:15.

So, I will ask you once again:

Seeing how you reject Psalm 150, do you similarly reject other psalms?

Psalm 23?

Psalm 91?

Shall I go on?

 

[HeIsHere]

Audience: the disciples, Jesus is not giving instructions on how to stay saved.
A general overview of the passage.
Jesus is paralleling a spiritual situation to a material practice (vineyard keeping)

Positionally, we abide in Christ’s love totally and irrevocably (Rom. 8:37-38, cf., v. 28-38).

In John 15, branches being cast into a fire was the normal practice and expected end of dried branches—it has no intended reference to the fate of Christians. It is only an illustration of what Christians are like in a condition of non-abiding. They are as worthless to God for fruit bearing as dried branches—whose normal end is to be tossed into a fire.

There is a need to abide in Christ’s love relationally—in this area we all need encouragement, help and exhortation towards abiding—towards maintaining our love relationship with Christ and the obedience that flows from it.

https://jashow.org/articles/objections-to-eternal-security-what-about-john-15/

 

[HeIsHere]

That's your answer?

Something that you plagiarized from the John Ankerberg show?

Wow!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Plagiarism is the representation of another person's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work.[1][2][3] Although precise definitions vary depending on the institution,[4] in many countries and cultures plagiarism is considered a violation of academic integrity and journalistic ethics, as well as of social norms around learning, teaching, research, fairness, respect, and responsibility.[5] As such, a person or entity that is determined to have committed plagiarism is often subject to various punishments or sanctions, such as suspension, expulsion from school[6] or work,[7] fines,[8][9] imprisonment,[10][11] and other penalties.

It was in a body of notes I have, along with my own thoughts and other sources and I have added the link.

And if you look at many of my posts I typically do source the material.
The other person who has correct soteriologyand the correct understanding of salvation is Paul Ellis.
Here is his link.
https://escapetoreality.org/2018/05/02/are-unfruitful-branches-lifted-up/comment-page-2/

 

[Believer08]

@keepingthingsreal The Holy Spirit inspired James to say “sing psalms” in James 5:13, as well as when Paul by inspiration said “speaking to one another in psalms” (Eph. 5:19), and when he says “teaching and admonishing one another in psalms” Col. 3:16.

We have NT authority by inspiration of the Holy Spirit to sing psalms, speak to one another in psalms, and teach and admonish one another in psalms as worship. We have no authority for playing the psalms. An instrument cannot speak or sing psalms, but voices can. Instruments cannot teach and admonish one another in psalms, but voices can.

There is no harm in the worship assembly by learning Psalm 23 or learning from the moral principles of the Psalm. When Paul was writing to the church of Ephesus, he advised them to speak to yourselves in psalms (Eph. 5:19), not to play the or be follow other things that are in the psalms, which is an essential point to remember. No one would believe that it is proper to offer sacrifices, burnt offerings (66:13-15) since these are in the psalms. The Psalms, is still considered sacred scripture and is helpful in teaching Christians a variety of lessons (Rom 15:3–4).

Paul believed the Old Testament to be for our learning and examples (Rom. 15:4; cf. 1 Cor. 10:6), not its laws (1 Tim. 1:8-11; Gal. 5:3-4; Acts 15). We are not required to respond to some of the Psalms in the same manner that Israel did (50:13-14; 51:19; 66:15; 118:127) as we’re not bound by their specific commands or laws, but we are to learn from them. Passages such as Psalm 18:2; Psalm 70:4; Psalm 94:19; Psalm 119:104-105; Psalm 119:116; Psalm 119:160 etc etc and many more are applicable to our daily walk with Christ, as they are universal moral laws. The Psalms do not justify the use of instrumental music in worship no more than animal sacrifice does in them does.

As G. C. Brewer is said to have once put forth the following statement in a work called “Medley on the Music Question”:
“Either show where there is New Testament authority for the use of instruments, or show why New Testament authority is not needed.”

This issue is not new at all Here are some statements from history in regard to the use of instruments during the New Testament age…

The Geneva Bible (1599) in a footnote on Psalm 150:3 - “Exhorting the people only to rejoice in God, he maketh mention of those instruments which by God’s commandment were appointed in the Old Law, but under Christ the use thereof is abolished.”

Wilhelm Zepperus (1550-1607) - “Instrumental music in the religious worship of the Jews, belonged to the ceremonial law, which is now abolished.”

John Cotton (1584-1652) - “Instrumental music found in the ancient Jewish temple is merely a type or shadow of the edifying and untheatrical singing with the heart and voice approved and practiced in the New Testament.”

John Brown of Haddington (1722-1787) - “In the New Testament there is no reference to instrumental music as in use among the Christians of apostolic times. It is simply vocal music that is ever mentioned.”

Philip Schaff (1819-1893) - “The use of organs in churches is ascribed to Pope Vitalian (657-672)...The Greek church disapproved the use of organs...The custom of organ accompaniment did not become general among Protestants until the eighteenth century.”

Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) - “Musical instruments were rejected and condemned by the whole army of Protestant divines.”

While these statements from church history are not the source of authority for the church, they constitute a strong witness against the use of instrumental music in the worship of the church. One church historian wrote, “The condemnation of the use of instrumental music in corporate worship is genuinely a ubiquitous and universal sentiment among early church fathers.”

 

[HeIsHere]

I would my little experiment was a success.
Ten years of learning.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

@keepingthingsreal The Holy Spirit inspired James to say “sing psalms” in James 5:13, as well as when Paul by inspiration said “speaking to one another in psalms” (Eph. 5:19), and when he says “teaching and admonishing one another in psalms” Col. 3:16.

We have NT authority by inspiration of the Holy Spirit to sing psalms, speak to one another in psalms, and teach and admonish one another in psalms as worship. We have no authority for playing the psalms. An instrument cannot speak or sing psalms, but voices can. Instruments cannot teach and admonish one another in psalms, but voices can.

There is no harm in the worship assembly by learning Psalm 23 or learning from the moral principles of the Psalm. When Paul was writing to the church of Ephesus, he advised them to speak to yourselves in psalms (Eph. 5:19), not to play the or be follow other things that are in the psalms, which is an essential point to remember. No one would believe that it is proper to offer sacrifices, burnt offerings (66:13-15) since these are in the psalms. The Psalms, is still considered sacred scripture and is helpful in teaching Christians a variety of lessons (Rom 15:3–4).

Paul believed the Old Testament to be for our learning and examples (Rom. 15:4; cf. 1 Cor. 10:6), not its laws (1 Tim. 1:8-11; Gal. 5:3-4; Acts 15). We are not required to respond to some of the Psalms in the same manner that Israel did (50:13-14; 51:19; 66:15; 118:127) as we’re not bound by their specific commands or laws, but we are to learn from them. Passages such as Psalm 18:2; Psalm 70:4; Psalm 94:19; Psalm 119:104-105; Psalm 119:116; Psalm 119:160 etc etc and many more are applicable to our daily walk with Christ, as they are universal moral laws. The Psalms do not justify the use of instrumental music in worship no more than animal sacrifice does in them does.

As G. C. Brewer is said to have once put forth the following statement in a work called “Medley on the Music Question”:
“Either show where there is New Testament authority for the use of instruments, or show why New Testament authority is not needed.”

This issue is not new at all Here are some statements from history in regard to the use of instruments during the New Testament age…

The Geneva Bible (1599) in a footnote on Psalm 150:3 - “Exhorting the people only to rejoice in God, he maketh mention of those instruments which by God’s commandment were appointed in the Old Law, but under Christ the use thereof is abolished.”

Wilhelm Zepperus (1550-1607) - “Instrumental music in the religious worship of the Jews, belonged to the ceremonial law, which is now abolished.”

John Cotton (1584-1652) - “Instrumental music found in the ancient Jewish temple is merely a type or shadow of the edifying and untheatrical singing with the heart and voice approved and practiced in the New Testament.”

John Brown of Haddington (1722-1787) - “In the New Testament there is no reference to instrumental music as in use among the Christians of apostolic times. It is simply vocal music that is ever mentioned.”

Philip Schaff (1819-1893) - “The use of organs in churches is ascribed to Pope Vitalian (657-672)...The Greek church disapproved the use of organs...The custom of organ accompaniment did not become general among Protestants until the eighteenth century.”

Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) - “Musical instruments were rejected and condemned by the whole army of Protestant divines.”

While these statements from church history are not the source of authority for the church, they constitute a strong witness against the use of instrumental music in the worship of the church. One church historian wrote, “The condemnation of the use of instrumental music in corporate worship is genuinely a ubiquitous and universal sentiment among early church fathers.”

Have you ever considered that the 24 elders in heaven were playing harps while singing a song?

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

If God is opposed to the accompaniment of musical instruments with singing here on earth, then why is this very thing occurring in heaven?

Again, why are the tribulation saints playing harps while singing a song in heaven if God is allegedly opposed to the same here on earth?

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Did not Jesus teach us to pray that God's will would be done on earth as in heaven? Well, if people are not only using harps in heaven, but the harps of God, while singing there, then why should we believe that it is forbidden here?

And what about this?

Luk 15:25
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

The younger son, or the prodigal son, was returning to his father's house, and the father, in this parable, represents God the Father.

What is up with the music in his house?

Wait. Let me guess. It was coming from his neighbor's car radio.

The New Testament is not as quiet of the topic of music as you and others here would have us to believe it is.

 

[Believer08]

Have you ever considered that the 24 elders in heaven were playing harps while singing a song?

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

If God is opposed to the accompaniment of musical instruments with singing here on earth, then why is this very thing occurring in heaven?

Again, why are the tribulation saints playing harps while singing a song in heaven if God is allegedly opposed to the same here on earth?

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Did not Jesus teach us to pray that God's will would be done on earth as in heaven? Well, if people are not only using harps in heaven, but the harps of God, while singing there, then why should we believe that it is forbidden here?

And what about this?

Luk 15:25
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

The younger son, or the prodigal son, was returning to his father's house, and the father, in this parable, represents God the Father.

What is up with the music in his house?

Wait. Let me guess. It was coming from his neighbor's car radio.

The New Testament is not as quiet of the topic of music as you and others here would have us to believe it is.

Concerning Revelation with harps etc etc, that’s not describing what the church is to do on earth as the kind of music for worship.
Even if it was instruction of how to worship and to be the style of music in the assembly to praise God with musical instruments, not any instrument would be allowed except the instruments that are mentioned. Such as harps. And there must be 24 elders with harps. Are any New Testament churches doing this today? If not, why not?

If these are literal instruments, then consistency would also require that we simultaneously bring in many waters and loud thunder as well, as if one is going to claim that God desires instruments in worship from the book of Revelation (14:2), we would also have to be standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.(Rev. 15:2). If not, why not?

Should we also have the four beasts and golden vials full of odours in worship as well (Rev. 58)? If not, why not? Are these four literal beasts or are they symbolic of something?

Does Revelation provide support or legitimacy for the use of instrumental music in worship as the kind of music to give God among His people? Nothing in its overall context justifies the use of instruments in our worship services.

Concerning the passage in Luke, that’s not in the worship assembly.

Concerning the arguments of having a car radio, that’s also not referring to worship assembly.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Concerning Revelation with harps etc etc, that’s not describing what the church is to do on earth as the kind of music for worship.
Even if it was instruction of how to worship and to be the style of music in the assembly to praise God with musical instruments, not any instrument would be allowed except the instruments that are mentioned. Such as harps. And there must be 24 elders with harps. Are any New Testament churches doing this today? If not, why not?

If these are literal instruments, then consistency would also require that we simultaneously bring in many waters and loud thunder as well, as if one is going to claim that God desires instruments in worship from the book of Revelation (14:2), we would also have to be standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.(Rev. 15:2). If not, why not?

Should we also have the four beasts and golden vials full of odours in worship as well (Rev. 58)? If not, why not? Are these four literal beasts or are they symbolic of something?

Does Revelation provide support or legitimacy for the use of instrumental music in worship as the kind of music to give God among His people? Nothing in its overall context justifies the use of instruments in our worship services.

Concerning the passage in Luke, that’s not in the worship assembly.

Concerning the arguments of having a car radio, that’s also not referring to worship assembly.

You conveniently missed my point.

Your argument is that God is against musical instruments being used in worship, and, yet, that is precisely what is transpiring in heaven.

You've got nothing.

Just admit it.

 

[HeIsHere]

That's your answer?

Something that you plagiarized from the John Ankerberg show?

Wow!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism

Plagiarism is the representation of another person's language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions as one's own original work.[1][2][3] Although precise definitions vary depending on the institution,[4] in many countries and cultures plagiarism is considered a violation of academic integrity and journalistic ethics, as well as of social norms around learning, teaching, research, fairness, respect, and responsibility.[5] As such, a person or entity that is determined to have committed plagiarism is often subject to various punishments or sanctions, such as suspension, expulsion from school[6] or work,[7] fines,[8][9] imprisonment,[10][11] and other penalties.

Very predictable and anticipated.

 

[Believer08]

You conveniently missed my point.

Your argument is that God is against musical instruments being used in worship, and, yet, that is precisely what is transpiring in heaven.

You've got nothing.

Just admit it.

No, I did not miss your point. I addressed it. You, however, ignored my statements and questions while I answered yours. I explained why your use of those passages isn’t talking about authority for the worship on earth, and I also explained how those who go to Revelation to use them aren’t consistent with what Revelation teaches about them, nor are they consistent in thinking they are literal, while the other things are not. The reason why they do not is because they want to use their man made instruments instead of worshipping with the kind of music that God wants. I have the Bible on my side. You do not. I’m not going to be arrogant enough to worship God in a way by going to a book that is filled with symbolic language (Revelation), choosing to decide this part is symbolic while this part is literal just to suit my worship.

 

[keepingthingsreal]

Very predictable and anticipated.

What? That your "exegesis" was plagiarism? You are right. It was very predictable and anticipated.

 

[HeIsHere]

What? That your "exegesis" was plagiarism? You are right. It was very predictable and anticipated.

I corrected and explained.
How about you show me where both Ellis and Ankerberg (and many others) are wrong in their interpretation if you can.
I am mildly curious.