-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F
FireOnTheAltar
Guest
Chapter 7 clearly speaks of the natural depravity of man and our inability to save ourselves in the present tense. However, in chapter 8 Paul tells how we can be overcomers through the empowerment of the indwelling Christ, ie. the Holy Spirit.
I personally believe that it is a literal and practical transformation than can be seen in the life of the believer, the result being overcoming the flesh in this life through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. Not some mystical occurance that no one can see or sense that leaves the person trapped in habitual sin. If the Holy Spirit truly resides in you, sanctification is not optional. It is the evidence of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence.
Amen. Faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, too simple for many theologians and scholars!
What a wretched man I am. Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ my Lord
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin
Rom 7:24&25
Paul has been speaking of his anguish and struggle with sin, and sin being his master, he continually did what he did not want to do. His body of death. But Paul had said that it was the law that brought to him death
verse 11
So his struggles and faluires and guilt were a result of his faliure to obey the law, which means he must have been speaking pre conversion. But then he affirms that Christ set him free from his body of death. The chapter finishes with Paul saying that in his mind he is a slave to God's law, but in his sinful nature a slave to the law of sin
Some say this confirms Paul is speaking of his Christian life. In our sinful nature we are indeed a slave to the law of sin, but Paul makes clear we must not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. While he was under the law he lived according to his sinful natiure(chapter 7. Sin was his master) but he speaks very differently concerning sin in ch 8
CH 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his son in the likeness of sinfull man to be a sin offering. And so He condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT
verses 1-4
So Christ has paid the penalty for ALL our sin. So sin/satan can no longer use the law to condemn the Christian, therefore we are free. Christ paid the price of all our guilt and shame. Which should mean we are no longer weighed down with guilt, depression or fear. The law cannot conmdemn us for Christ has paid the price of our sin, therefore we no longer need to feel not good enough, dirty, a faliure according to our weaknesses, we truly are free. But we do have a responsibility. To follow after the Spiriit.
It is interesting to note that in ch 7 verses7-25 the Holy Spirit is not mentioned at all, previously to this He had been. We have life through the Spirit and we must be led by the spirit. So we cannot say
'I am free, I don't need to do anything, I can just sit back and put my feet up'
But how many of us really feel free. How many of us do not think we still have to strive in ourselves to obey the good laws of God even though we are free? We may say we are not condemned if we fail to keep them because Christ died for us, but even so, how do we feel if we find we endlessly keep trying and failing to obey them? Do we feel depressed? believe we are not moving on in the Christian life? do we feel pretty low that time and time again we just keep failing to live as we should?
When we become Christians we have deep rooted sin in us that we take into our Christian life from our former life, it needs to be dealt with. But by whom? Us? or Jesus? If we keep trying and failing to live as we should something must be wrong somewhere. We are free and that man Paul says we must follow after the Spirit and not live according to the sinful nature.
It is because of him you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God-that is our righteousness HOLINESS AND REDEMPTION.
1 Cor 1:30
So we do not in ourselves become Holy by trying to obey God's good laws He would have us keep, even believing if we fail we are still saved by grace. It is Christ in us who makes us Holy. Our job is simply to trust him to do it.
So if we keep struggling to obey and keep failing it is very doubtful we are trusting in Christ to do the work in us
Obediance comes from faith(in Christ)
Rom 1:5
So we are free of our guilt, shame, we do not have to strive to be good enough, we are in a loving, secure relationship with our Father through faith in Christ, believing on him our one and only righteousness for Heaven. And we have to look to Jesus and trust him to change us, realising we cannot change ourselves. Our own struggles are worthless, they cannot succeeed and only make us feel crushed, or hard nosed with a false pride. But this is no easy option
If we really love Jesus we will desperately want to live as he would have us live. The battle is to simply keep looking to him and trusting him to do the work in us that we cannot do in ourselves.
It is too good to be true almost isn't it, and that for many may be the problem
Jesus said the worlds sin is unbelief in me
John 16:9
I believe it is the Christian's true sin as well if you like.
We may be under grace but many are still determined to make themselves obediiant and overcome by their own efforts, this cannot succeed of course.
So for the Christian not to be a slave to sin they are to look to Christ from the heart and trust him, no matter what happens, no matter how they feel, no matter what they see, just to trust him in simple childlike faith and to totally rely on the Holy Spirit to sanctify them, as the first Christians did who were known as 'the way'
But then there are the theologians and scholars who just love to make things complicated with their so called knowledge.
So we just keep looking to Christ and trusting him, never shifting from the belief that he died for our sins and he will set us free, but he cannot do it if we are struggling to do it in ourselves. We stand by faith in Christ not our own personal goodness and God will be pleased, but if we struggle to achieve in ourselves God will just beciome exasperated, but as He loves us He will be patient and allow us to become desperate enough to let Jesus Change us when we see the futility of our own efforts.
And when Christ has set us free(as he surely must) of what binds us, we have a responsibility to resist temptation in the power of the Holy Spirit, but we are not expected to change ourselves in the first place, an important difference. But when we fail as inevitably we often do, Jesus will pick us back up and set our feet on firm ground once again
The message is grace, the heart of the Gospel is God's love for us.
So none of us should be where Paul was in Rom ch 7, not if we are trusting in Jesus, but are we?
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin
Rom 7:24&25
Paul has been speaking of his anguish and struggle with sin, and sin being his master, he continually did what he did not want to do. His body of death. But Paul had said that it was the law that brought to him death
verse 11
So his struggles and faluires and guilt were a result of his faliure to obey the law, which means he must have been speaking pre conversion. But then he affirms that Christ set him free from his body of death. The chapter finishes with Paul saying that in his mind he is a slave to God's law, but in his sinful nature a slave to the law of sin
Some say this confirms Paul is speaking of his Christian life. In our sinful nature we are indeed a slave to the law of sin, but Paul makes clear we must not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. While he was under the law he lived according to his sinful natiure(chapter 7. Sin was his master) but he speaks very differently concerning sin in ch 8
CH 8
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his son in the likeness of sinfull man to be a sin offering. And so He condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE SINFUL NATURE BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT
verses 1-4
So Christ has paid the penalty for ALL our sin. So sin/satan can no longer use the law to condemn the Christian, therefore we are free. Christ paid the price of all our guilt and shame. Which should mean we are no longer weighed down with guilt, depression or fear. The law cannot conmdemn us for Christ has paid the price of our sin, therefore we no longer need to feel not good enough, dirty, a faliure according to our weaknesses, we truly are free. But we do have a responsibility. To follow after the Spiriit.
It is interesting to note that in ch 7 verses7-25 the Holy Spirit is not mentioned at all, previously to this He had been. We have life through the Spirit and we must be led by the spirit. So we cannot say
'I am free, I don't need to do anything, I can just sit back and put my feet up'
But how many of us really feel free. How many of us do not think we still have to strive in ourselves to obey the good laws of God even though we are free? We may say we are not condemned if we fail to keep them because Christ died for us, but even so, how do we feel if we find we endlessly keep trying and failing to obey them? Do we feel depressed? believe we are not moving on in the Christian life? do we feel pretty low that time and time again we just keep failing to live as we should?
When we become Christians we have deep rooted sin in us that we take into our Christian life from our former life, it needs to be dealt with. But by whom? Us? or Jesus? If we keep trying and failing to live as we should something must be wrong somewhere. We are free and that man Paul says we must follow after the Spirit and not live according to the sinful nature.
It is because of him you are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God-that is our righteousness HOLINESS AND REDEMPTION.
1 Cor 1:30
So we do not in ourselves become Holy by trying to obey God's good laws He would have us keep, even believing if we fail we are still saved by grace. It is Christ in us who makes us Holy. Our job is simply to trust him to do it.
So if we keep struggling to obey and keep failing it is very doubtful we are trusting in Christ to do the work in us
Obediance comes from faith(in Christ)
Rom 1:5
So we are free of our guilt, shame, we do not have to strive to be good enough, we are in a loving, secure relationship with our Father through faith in Christ, believing on him our one and only righteousness for Heaven. And we have to look to Jesus and trust him to change us, realising we cannot change ourselves. Our own struggles are worthless, they cannot succeeed and only make us feel crushed, or hard nosed with a false pride. But this is no easy option
If we really love Jesus we will desperately want to live as he would have us live. The battle is to simply keep looking to him and trusting him to do the work in us that we cannot do in ourselves.
It is too good to be true almost isn't it, and that for many may be the problem
Jesus said the worlds sin is unbelief in me
John 16:9
I believe it is the Christian's true sin as well if you like.
We may be under grace but many are still determined to make themselves obediiant and overcome by their own efforts, this cannot succeed of course.
So for the Christian not to be a slave to sin they are to look to Christ from the heart and trust him, no matter what happens, no matter how they feel, no matter what they see, just to trust him in simple childlike faith and to totally rely on the Holy Spirit to sanctify them, as the first Christians did who were known as 'the way'
But then there are the theologians and scholars who just love to make things complicated with their so called knowledge.
So we just keep looking to Christ and trusting him, never shifting from the belief that he died for our sins and he will set us free, but he cannot do it if we are struggling to do it in ourselves. We stand by faith in Christ not our own personal goodness and God will be pleased, but if we struggle to achieve in ourselves God will just beciome exasperated, but as He loves us He will be patient and allow us to become desperate enough to let Jesus Change us when we see the futility of our own efforts.
And when Christ has set us free(as he surely must) of what binds us, we have a responsibility to resist temptation in the power of the Holy Spirit, but we are not expected to change ourselves in the first place, an important difference. But when we fail as inevitably we often do, Jesus will pick us back up and set our feet on firm ground once again
The message is grace, the heart of the Gospel is God's love for us.
So none of us should be where Paul was in Rom ch 7, not if we are trusting in Jesus, but are we?
awww.....you kinda cheated LBG.
we all know where paul goes in that Book. that in 8 He talks about the Spirit's ability to sanctify (as opposed to 6 being about the believer and sin alone, 7 the believer and sin and The Law, with the Law unable to sanctify).
you disagree that 7 is for the christian (but you skip over that with Fire
) so you can agree that 8 concerns HOW the believer is sanctified, and take a startling jab (cheap shot) at us on your way past with Fire.....awwww....cute
and we hadn't even gotten to 8, had we?
oh well.....so....is 7 about Paul (and the christian)?
awww.....you kinda cheated LBG.
we all know where paul goes in that Book. that in 8 He talks about the Spirit's ability to sanctify (as opposed to 6 being about the believer and sin alone, 7 the believer and sin and The Law, with the Law unable to sanctify).
you disagree that 7 is for the christian (but you skip over that with Fire
You will never believe this Zone but I was not thinking of you personally when I wrote that
and we hadn't even gotten to 8, had we?
oh well.....so....is 7 about Paul (and the christian)?
I have given ,my exposition(if I could call it that
) of chapter 7, that is my belief, I accept you disagree with me, but as mature Christians I am sure we can just accept each other without having to agree on everythingGod Bless
F
FireOnTheAltar
Guest
Regardless of what we might think about chapter 7 please understand, chapter 8 completely trumps chapter 7. By no means are believers "bi polar". While we do at times make mistakes, there's no way that we can be a slave to the flesh and a slave to righteousness simultaneously.
No we can't
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey-whether YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN WHICH LEADS TO DEATH or to OBEDIANCE WHICH LEADS TO RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 6:16
the discussion was about PAUL TEACHING US what happens to us as new converts.
and that chapter can at times bring assurane to christians who do not hear the gospel in church or are hooked up with weslyan perfectionists (who were behind the determination to say 7 didn't belong exactly where it sits in the polemic of helping christians understand what is happening to them since they received the Spirit).
it may be true that some never see great victory over sin in their lives: but i do find it intriguing that you refer to SIN committed by the believer as "mistakes"...its interesting.
does God require punishment for mistakes?
would you spank your child for tripping over a toy?
anyone who reads Romans with understanding knows full well that, as we see in the beautiful flow of Romans (as in all of paul's writings), we are taken on a thorough journey through the experience we have as new believers, and we realize we still have sin! then we learn about our sin and The Law! here we are taught so much more about the Purpose of the Law....and on in that divinely inspired trip through those passages until we arrive at and are given understanding into the source and agency of our sanctification: The Holy Spirit.
to say'' 8 trumps 7' is.....well.....i don't know
: is there a suggeston that chapter or any portion of scripture is not for all time? can a believer not find assurance in the great apostle paul's divinely inspired HONESTY about what it means, at times, to be a christian? isn't sanctification progressive? yes. it is.i LOVE seeing how My God has done all this.
anyways.
the OP:
i think chapter 7, as bitter a pill as it may be at times, is still great assurance for the believer: Paul is honest with the reader.
Paul wouldn't have cottoned to Finney much i reckon.
Last edited:
the discussion was about PAUL TEACHING US what happens to us as new converts.
and that chapter can at times bring assurane to christians who do not hear the gospel in church or are hooked up with weslyan perfectionists (who were behind the determination to say 7 didn't belong exactly where it sits in the polemic of helping christians understand what is happening to them since they received the Spirit).
it may be true that some never see great victory over sin in their lives: but i do find it intriguing that you refer to SIN committed by the believer as "mistakes"...its interesting.
does God require punishment for mistakes?
would you spank your child for tripping over a toy?
anyone who reads Romans with understanding knows full well that, as we see in the beautiful flow of Romans (as in all of paul's writings), we are taken on a thorough journey through the experience we have as new believers, and we realize we still have sin! then we learn about our sin and The Law! here we are taught so much more about the Purpose of the Law....and on in that divinely inspired trip through those passages until we arrive at and are given understanding into the source and agency of our sanctification: The Holy Spirit.
to say'' 8 trumps 7' is.....well.....i don't know
i LOVE seeing how My God has done all this.
anyways.
the OP:
Re: Can someone lose their salvation?
i think chapter 7, as bitter a pill as it may be at times, is still great assurance for the believer: Paul is honest with the reader.
Paul wouldn't have cottoned to Finney much i reckon.
Zone
Can I just ask you?
Do you belive then that Paul as a Christian strove to obey the law and the result was that his mind was filled with lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) and brought death to him and slew him
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No where in romans 7 does it say pauls struggle with sin was sexual in nature. so I am not sure what you are getting at.
A
AnandaHya
Guest
Actually the Bible talks about how people are bipolar until they have achieved the righteousness through chastening of the LORD when they error or stray during their LEARNING process. God wants us to be perfect but He expects it to take time and not happen right away. there is a transformation in that we have the ability to recognize and repent and the strength to turn from the strongholds of darkness in our lives and our minds through the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Salvation means we are not going to hell, it does not mean we are automatically perfect. We have to work towards perfection and run the good race that Christ set before us to make us clean and pure and acceptable. The HOLY Spirit enables us to do this and teaches us what is need to be perfect through God's Holy Words.
Deuteronomy 8:5
You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you.
Psalm 118:18
The LORD has chastened me severely,But He has not given me over to death
Hebrews 12:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
no if you are perfect at salvation and never sinned again what would be the need for chastening? what would be the need for daily confession and repentance?
you are right when you choose to sin you are a slave to sin and until the Holy spirit through Grace shows you your error and you confess and repent again you remain a slave to sin. when you repent then you can again be washed clean and be a child of God again. instead of selling yourself for cheap trinkets to the world and whoring away your body and life.
James 4:3-5 (New King James Version)
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and[a] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
Last edited:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid, Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known LUST, except the law had said
'Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence(in my oxford English dictionary concupiscence means sexual desire. It says the same in a huge Collins dictionary I have as well) For without the law sin was dead
Rom 7:7&8
Also, an American woman told us on another website that half the sex addicts in the US had at one time or another been to 'holiness' churches
Her husband counselled many who had been to churches where they were led to believe they had to stringently live a good enough life(must be according to law) or their salvation was in grave danger, and sexual problems was nearly always the result
Last edited:
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
All the above are spoken in present tense. If Paul was speaking of his past life before his conversion, he would have spoke in PAST tense.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Again, spoken in present, not past tense, This is Pauls life as he was writing this statement. He wants to do, But he struggles. WHat he does not want to do, He does. (Yet it does not say what sin he is struggling with)''
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Here Paul is speaking about the flesh vs the spirit. Paul talks on this again in Chapter 8. Carnality brings death, Spirituality brings peace. Also he says twice in his epistles that if we look to the spirit will will not fulfill lusts of the flesh. If a christian could not fulfill lusts of the flesh, Paul had no need to say this.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
This is Pauls present state of being, Which his mind he will serve God, But if he lets his flesh get the best of him. It will be sin.
All the above are spoken in present tense. If Paul was speaking of his past life before his conversion, he would have spoke in PAST tense.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Again, spoken in present, not past tense, This is Pauls life as he was writing this statement. He wants to do, But he struggles. WHat he does not want to do, He does. (Yet it does not say what sin he is struggling with)''
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Here Paul is speaking about the flesh vs the spirit. Paul talks on this again in Chapter 8. Carnality brings death, Spirituality brings peace. Also he says twice in his epistles that if we look to the spirit will will not fulfill lusts of the flesh. If a christian could not fulfill lusts of the flesh, Paul had no need to say this.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
This is Pauls present state of being, Which his mind he will serve God, But if he lets his flesh get the best of him. It will be sin.
U
unclefester
Guest
I was going to bring that up yesterday as well but have "been trying hard" to avoid this thread....lol But while I'm here, I'd like to request some of this "plain scripture" LBG is referring to. Us head theologians are funny that way
I was going to bring that up yesterday as well but have "been trying hard" to avoid this thread....lol But while I'm here, I'd like to request some of this "plain scripture" LBG is referring to. Us head theologians are funny that way
Check my previous post
In verse 14 Paul says he is a slave to sin
In Rom 6:16 Paul says if a person is a slave to sin it leads to death, but obediance leads to righteousness
But I can only ask you agaiin
Did Paul as a Christian strive to obey the law and the result was that his mind became full of lust and concupiscence? and he was slew by the law and it became death to him
Last edited:
A
AnandaHya
Guest
apologies selenah your thread has become a theological battle field.
If you believe and confess that Jesus is Your Lord and savior, you can not lose your salvation.
gentlemen and ladies can I request we NOT to debate the issue on a 15 year old OP posted thread and continue this conversation elsewhere.
that little voice in my head just reminded me we are to help the person who FIRST posted the thread and this debate does not help to reassure and comfort anyone who is questioning whether they are saved or not and if they can lose their salvation.
Selenah when the darkness whispers lies about me being damned and unworthy I use this Bible verse to banish it and I pray for Jesus to save me. I hope it helps you. May the Lord protect and guide you in His wisdom, peace and love. In Jesus name we pray, amen.
Remember Christ Jesus has laid hold of YOU. Blessings.
Philippians 3:12-15 (New King James Version)
Pressing Toward the Goal
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
Is Romans 7 the normal Christian life?
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Your weekly dose of Spurgeon[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]posted by Phil Johnson[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The PyroManiacs[/FONT] devote space at the beginning of each week to highlights from The Spurgeon Archive.
This excerpt is from "The Fainting Warrior," a sermon preached January 23rd, 1859, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens. I chose this excerpt today because Spurgeon's text here was Romans 7:24-25, and I'm preaching on Romans 7 this weekend.
Of course, one of the tough questions people always raise about that passage is whether Paul was describing his experience as a mature apostle—because if he struggled with sin the way he describes here, there's little hope any of us will attain any kind of perfection in this life. If Paul was calling himself "wretched" as a believer, this text more or less deals a death-blow to perfectionist doctrine of every kind.This excerpt is from "The Fainting Warrior," a sermon preached January 23rd, 1859, at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens. I chose this excerpt today because Spurgeon's text here was Romans 7:24-25, and I'm preaching on Romans 7 this weekend.
Anyway, I like the way Spurgeon basically brushes aside the suggestion that Paul was above struggling with sin and temptation:
IF I chose to occupy your time with controversial matter, I might prove to a demonstration that the apostle Paul is here describing his own experience as a Christian. Some have affirmed that he is merely declaring what he was before conversion, and not what he was when he became the recipient of the grace of God.
But such persons are evidently mistaken, and I believe wilfully mistaken; for any ample-hearted, candid mind, reading through this chapter, could not fall into such an error. It is Paul the apostle, who was not less than the very greatest of the apostles—it is Paul, the mighty servant of God, a very prince in Israel, one of the King's mighty men—it is Paul, the saint and the apostle, who here exclaims, "O wretched man that I am!"
Now, humble Christians are often the dupes of a very foolish error. They look up to certain advanced saints and able ministers, and they say, "Surely, such men as these do not suffer as I do; they do not contend with the same evil passions as those which vex and trouble me."
Ah! if they knew the heart of those men, if they could read their inward conflicts, they would soon discover that the nearer a man lives to God, the more intensely has he to mourn over his own evil heart, and the more his Master honors him in his service, the more also doth the evil of the flesh vex and tease him day by day.
Perhaps, this error is more natural, as it is certainly more common, with regard to apostolic saints. We have been in the habit of saying, Saint Paul, and Saint John, as if they were more saints than any other of the children of God. They are all saints whom God has called by his grace, and sanctified by his Spirit; but somehow we very foolishly put the apostles and the early saints into another list, and do not venture to look on them as common mortals. We look upon them as some extraordinary beings, who could not be men of like passions with ourselves.
We are told in Scripture that our Saviour was "tempted in all points like as we are;" and yet we fall into the egregious error of imagining that the apostles, who were far inferior to the Lord Jesus, escaped these temptations, and were ignorant of these conflicts.
The fact is, if you had seen the apostle Paul, you would have thought he was remarkably like the rest of the chosen family: and if you had talked with him, you would have said, "Why, Paul, I find that your experience and mine exactly agree. You are more faithful, more holy, and more deeply taught than I, but you have the self same trials to endure. Nay, in some respects you are more sorely tried than I."
Do not look upon the ancient saints as being exempt either from infirmities or sins, and do not regard them with that mystic reverence which almost makes you an idolater. Their holiness is attainable even by you, and their faults are to be censured as much as your own.
I believe it is a Christian's duty to force his way into the inner circle of saintship; and if these saints were superior to us in their attainments, as they certainly were, let us follow them; let us press forward up to, yea, and beyond them, for I do not see that this is impossible. We have the same light that they had, the same grace is accessible to us, and why should we rest satisfied until we have distanced them in the heavenly race?
Let us bring them down to the sphere of common mortals. If Jesus was the Son of man, and very man, "bone of our bone, and flesh of our flesh;" so were the apostles; and it is an egregious error to suppose that they were not the subjects of the same emotions, and the same inward trials, as the very meanest of the people of God. So far, this may tend to our comfort and to our encouragement, when we find that we are engaged in a battle in which apostles themselves have had to fight.
But such persons are evidently mistaken, and I believe wilfully mistaken; for any ample-hearted, candid mind, reading through this chapter, could not fall into such an error. It is Paul the apostle, who was not less than the very greatest of the apostles—it is Paul, the mighty servant of God, a very prince in Israel, one of the King's mighty men—it is Paul, the saint and the apostle, who here exclaims, "O wretched man that I am!"
Now, humble Christians are often the dupes of a very foolish error. They look up to certain advanced saints and able ministers, and they say, "Surely, such men as these do not suffer as I do; they do not contend with the same evil passions as those which vex and trouble me."
Ah! if they knew the heart of those men, if they could read their inward conflicts, they would soon discover that the nearer a man lives to God, the more intensely has he to mourn over his own evil heart, and the more his Master honors him in his service, the more also doth the evil of the flesh vex and tease him day by day.
Perhaps, this error is more natural, as it is certainly more common, with regard to apostolic saints. We have been in the habit of saying, Saint Paul, and Saint John, as if they were more saints than any other of the children of God. They are all saints whom God has called by his grace, and sanctified by his Spirit; but somehow we very foolishly put the apostles and the early saints into another list, and do not venture to look on them as common mortals. We look upon them as some extraordinary beings, who could not be men of like passions with ourselves.
We are told in Scripture that our Saviour was "tempted in all points like as we are;" and yet we fall into the egregious error of imagining that the apostles, who were far inferior to the Lord Jesus, escaped these temptations, and were ignorant of these conflicts.
The fact is, if you had seen the apostle Paul, you would have thought he was remarkably like the rest of the chosen family: and if you had talked with him, you would have said, "Why, Paul, I find that your experience and mine exactly agree. You are more faithful, more holy, and more deeply taught than I, but you have the self same trials to endure. Nay, in some respects you are more sorely tried than I."
Do not look upon the ancient saints as being exempt either from infirmities or sins, and do not regard them with that mystic reverence which almost makes you an idolater. Their holiness is attainable even by you, and their faults are to be censured as much as your own.
I believe it is a Christian's duty to force his way into the inner circle of saintship; and if these saints were superior to us in their attainments, as they certainly were, let us follow them; let us press forward up to, yea, and beyond them, for I do not see that this is impossible. We have the same light that they had, the same grace is accessible to us, and why should we rest satisfied until we have distanced them in the heavenly race?
Let us bring them down to the sphere of common mortals. If Jesus was the Son of man, and very man, "bone of our bone, and flesh of our flesh;" so were the apostles; and it is an egregious error to suppose that they were not the subjects of the same emotions, and the same inward trials, as the very meanest of the people of God. So far, this may tend to our comfort and to our encouragement, when we find that we are engaged in a battle in which apostles themselves have had to fight.
I think Romans 7 is a pivotal passage, and I have never quite understood the difficulty some people have with the idea that Paul was describing his own daily experience. If you think the battle with temptation in Romans 7 is something mature Christians shouldn't have to face, your ideas about sanctification probably need an overhaul.
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2006/06/is-romans-7-normal-christian-life.html
U
unclefester
Guest
Matthew 5:28 Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Was Paul an adulterer ? How do we explain Paul's meaning in this verse ? Was he repeating himself ?
Romans 13:9-10 "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Romans 13:9 KJV)
I'm not trying to make the point that Paul "couldn't have lusted". My admiration for him and his writings would not change either way. But it can be argued that he did in fact "covet". Just seems odd that this distinction was made, no ?