Can someone lose their salvation?

[eternally-gratefull]

selenah, IMINJC's view comes with a flaw:

in a marriage, you can divorce yourself from your husband, and no longer be with him.
the same can happen between you and God.

Actually, the flaw is in the logic.

A human marriage takes two people with two sin natures. One who does not really know the other as they will after living together for awhile.

A spiritual marriage is based on one person. That is Christ. Who knows your whole life inimately before he even agrees to make you his bride. The flaw is thinking God will save a person HE KNOWS will walk away and deny him.

 

[Zilla64007]

and selenah, the Word plainly says:

if we (christians) deny Him, He denies us
2 Timothy 2:12

 

[jimmydiggs]

and selenah, the Word plainly says:

if we (christians) deny Him, He denies us
2 Timothy 2:12

Atleast include verse 13.

8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, 9 for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! 10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.

I recommend this article.

If We Deny Him, He Also Will Deny Us (2 Timothy 2:12) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site <--- click

 

[Bornfromabove]

I just read the book of colossians and when I read this part, this thread came to mind.


Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

So it seems clear to me that they have been "reconciled", and that you will be presented holy and unblameable and unreprovable in his sight "if" you continue in the faith, and not be moved away from the gospel.

 

[enochson]

and selenah, the Word plainly says:

if we (christians) deny Him, He denies us
2 Timothy 2:12

I think plainly you need to read the whole statement because it aren't what you qoute.

 

[Zilla64007]

i did read the whole statement... v13 doesn't change the outcome of v12.

God has to remain faithful to His word. He cannot say one thing and then do another... He is bound by His Word, and cannot go against His own Word, lest He become a liar and contradict His own Word.

God must remain faithful to His Word, especially when we cant stay faithful to ours...

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him;
12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 if we believe not, yet He abideth faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Paul is writing to Timothy and to like-minded Christians.
if we cannot remain faithful to His Word, He MUST remain faithful to His Word, for He cannot deny Himself.
so if we deny Him, He cannot deny Himself by not denying us.

if we are dead with Him, we shall also live with Him
if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him
if we deny Him, He will also deny us

this is what He must remain faithful to.
God cannot do anything He wants and get away with it.

 

[Bornfromabove]

I have to admit though, this verse is a tough one to explain if OSAS isn't true.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and selenah, the Word plainly says:

if we (christians) deny Him, He denies us
2 Timothy 2:12

And Selenah, And zill listen up very hard, for this is very important.

Not everyone who goes to church or claims to be a believer in Christ are saved. Many who walk into the doors of our churches are no more saved than a person who claims to be an athiest. When The apostles wrote to these churches. they knew these people were in the midst. and would read or hear these letters of warnings.

John makes it clear. An antichrist is one who denys Christ./

He also makes it clear. they were "never of us" (they were never saved in the first place, they just proffesed salvation) for IF THEY WERE OF US if they were truely saved ) they NEVER WOULD HAVE DEPARTED (never would have left and denied Christ) But they left us to PROVE, THEY WERE NEVER OF US.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to admit though, this verse is a tough one to explain if OSAS isn't true.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They can't explain it, they have to deny it. Why? Because of what John says.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and [f]because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the [g]Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1. Unlike those who left. These people know truth, they did not
2. Who is the liar and Antichrist? someone who denys Christ
3. He who knows the son confesses him for real. He who does not may confess him, but their confession is false. They are illigitament children and not true children of God
4. They did not lose salvation. as the Zilla's of the world want us to believe, they NEVER HAD IT "THE WERE NEVER OF US"

 

[Skinski7]

They can't explain it, they have to deny it. Why? Because of what John says.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and [f]because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the [g]Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1. Unlike those who left. These people know truth, they did not
2. Who is the liar and Antichrist? someone who denys Christ
3. He who knows the son confesses him for real. He who does not may confess him, but their confession is false. They are illigitament children and not true children of God
4. They did not lose salvation. as the Zilla's of the world want us to believe, they NEVER HAD IT "THE WERE NEVER OF US"

It is a moot point when you hold to a saved in sins message in the first place.

John in that verse is simply referring to some false brethren that walked with them for awhile. There is no mystery about it, it simply means what it says.

Also, confessing the Son includes confessing Him by how you live which is why a few verses before it says...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



If you clear all the fluff and get down the bottom line the foundational error is that salvation is viewed as an abstract provision instead of being a manifested state.

The underlying error that leads to salvation being taught as an abstract provision is that of inborn sin. Inborn sin is a gnostic heresy rooted in dualism where the flesh is recognised as evil apart from the state of the soul. Thus the church system teaches salvation by the simple "acknowledgment of facts" as opposed to the "application of truth."

Thus the gospel in the church system is "confess, trust and receive" as opposed to "repent and obey."

Due to the teaching of the inborn sin nature is is viewed as impossible to stop sinning because sin is a substance of the flesh. One cannot repent of a nature. Thus the whole Gospel has been redefined around this philosophical concept.

It removes the strait gate and narrow way, counting the cost, digging deep, being a doer of the word, sinning no more, denying self, crucifying the flesh etc. All those teachings are viewed as "subsequent" to the provisional salvation package.

That is why most will say "works" follow salvation or "repentance" follows salvation. It is all based upon strongholds in the mind which people have been taught for many years and they have never questioned them.

What is taught in the church system today bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the early church taught, they would be horrified to see today's mess.

 

[AnandaHya]

I like to read verses in context...

2 Timothy 2


14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: &#8220;The Lord knows those who are His,&#8221; and, &#8220;Let everyone who names the name of Christ[c] depart from iniquity.&#8221;

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

2 Timothy 3
New King James Version (NKJV)

3 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra&#8212;what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work

 

[AnandaHya]

back to your torching strawman, Skinski?

If you clear all the fluff and get down the bottom line the foundational error is that salvation is viewed as an abstract provision instead of being a manifested state.

The underlying error that leads to salvation being taught as an abstract provision is that of inborn sin. Inborn sin is a gnostic heresy rooted in dualism where the flesh is recognised as evil apart from the state of the soul. Thus the church system teaches salvation by the simple "acknowledgment of facts" as opposed to the "application of truth."

Thus the gospel in the church system is "confess, trust and receive" as opposed to "repent and obey."

Due to the teaching of the inborn sin nature is is viewed as impossible to stop sinning because sin is a substance of the flesh. One cannot repent of a nature. Thus the whole Gospel has been redefined around this philosophical concept.

ok stop right there.

the part you miss is that when someone is BORN AGAIN they no longer have a SIN nature and they grow in obedience with diligence adding to the Faith they have been given and walking towards the upward calling of GOD.

That is what I've been taught. your "church system" is false. you may find some churches buying into that lie but you do a disservice by lumping all churches into your favorite strawman argument.

Original sin is the doctrine that says that GOD needs to cleanse people of their in born nature and give them a NEW nature by having them BORN AGAIN in the Spirit.

You "confess, trust and recieve" that God has given you that FAITH that allows you to CONFESS that Jesus Christ died for your sins and then you repent and obey through the power of His Holy Spirit.

trying to pit the two against each other is false.

Giving half the Gospel is false.

 

[Zilla64007]

I have to admit though, this verse is a tough one to explain if OSAS isn't true.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

the key part is in the second part of the verse...
"for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:"

they started out as one of them... but by the time they went out from them, they no longer were of them... the passage gives the impression from the word "continue" that they had to start in order to continue it... in this case, these people did not continue in the faith. they departed from it; either because of sin or false doctrine, that is only speculation; this particular verse doesnt say.

the same thing is said for Hebrews 2:1-4, especially v3
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;"

neglect means "to be careless of"... only a believer can be careless of their salvation. an unsaved person cannot be careless with something they do not have. they can only reject it.

more on point with 1 john 2:19, 2 Peter 2:1-2 also talks about the same thing:

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

the Lord had bought them at one point in their life, but yet these men chose to deny the Lord... because of their turning to false doctrine, they shipwrecked their faith, like Hymenaeus and Alexander did, as mentioned in 1 Timothy...

 

[IMINJC]

eternally-grateful


YOU SAID: The flaw is thinking God will save a person HE KNOWS will walk away and deny him.


The Lord recieves all who come to Him does he not? I agree with you that the Lord knows all about those who come to Him, but flaw in your logic is ..We do not know what the Lord knows. So as far as we can see.. ALL that come before the alter and cofess Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are Saved according to John 3:16. We have the responsibility of preaching and teaching all of those who come in the Word of God and what He requires of them. When we say people can lose their salvation, it is from the logic that we don't know who may be genuine, so it is not our place to tell them that they are not really saved. What we do know, is that if they continue their unrepented sinful behavior, heaven will not be their home.

When you say people can't lose their salvation it is from the logic that God never accepted them when the said the sinners prayer, so they never had salvation, so they never lost it, but all those who said the sinners prayer thast the Lord accepted, they will be saved forever.....ok..I can actually live with both schools of thought.

 

[Zilla64007]

back to your torching strawman, Skinski?



ok stop right there.

the part you miss is that when someone is BORN AGAIN they no longer have a SIN nature and they grow in obedience with diligence adding to the Faith they have been given and walking towards the upward calling of GOD.

That is what I've been taught. your "church system" is false. you may find some churches buying into that lie but you do a disservice by lumping all churches into your favorite strawman argument.

Original sin is the doctrine that says that GOD needs to cleanse people of their in born nature and give them a NEW nature by having them BORN AGAIN in the Spirit.

You "confess, trust and recieve" that God has given you that FAITH that allows you to CONFESS that Jesus Christ died for your sins and then you repent and obey through the power of His Holy Spirit.

trying to pit the two against each other is false.

Giving half the Gospel is false.

he doesn't have to "stop" anything, Amanda.

he is 100% absolutely correct when he says most churches today focus more on leniency and acceptance to sin rather than repent and obey...

Original Sin does NOT teach that. Original Sin teaches that man is BORN genetically sinful, and cannot do anything good... that is an outright LIE from the mouth of Satan. Ecclesiastes says God made man upright, but WE sought out devices... Paul says in Romans 7 that he was alive before the law came... Paul says in Romans 2 that Gentiles NATURALLY do the things that are in the Law (12-14) Ezekiel 18 tells us the the son does not bear the iniquity of the father, and finally, 1 john 3:4 says that sinning is the transgression of the law... a newborn has not yet sinned, therefore has NOT transgressed the law.

faith is something that WE must have in order to be saved. IT IS NOT A GIFT.

and once more, skinski is dead-on when he says the early church spoke nothing of what the modern church teaches today... the ante-nicene fathers would be horribly amazed to find the levels of Gnosticism that are floating around in modern Christianity today...

the early church was not monergistic... they were synergistic. They taught that man had to repent, stay faithful to Jesus Christ, AND STOP SINNING. they never taught anything of the crap that you hear from any OSAS teacher... they flat out taught against it, because they knew IT WAS GNOSTIC.

 

[Bornfromabove]

the key part is in the second part of the verse...
"for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:"

they started out as one of them... but by the time they went out from them, they no longer were of them... the passage gives the impression from the word "continue" that they had to start in order to continue it... in this case, these people did not continue in the faith. they departed from it; either because of sin or false doctrine, that is only speculation; this particular verse doesnt say.

If this is the correct interpretation (not saying it is or isn't) then it seems like it would have been worded like this instead..."They went out from us, but they were no longer of us; for if they had still been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Zilla64007]

If this is the correct interpretation (not saying it is or isn't) then it seems like it would have been worded like this instead..."They went out from us, but they were no longer of us; for if they had still been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

the message of continual faith still lies within this verse without wording it how we want it to be worded... the context of OSAS or not lies on the word "continue"...

OSAS says you dont have to continue in the faith.
"once you're saved, you're always saved... and no sin you do later in life will change that."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is a moot point when you hold to a saved in sins message in the first place.

I don't hold a saved in sin message, I hold a saved FROM sin message. Try learning what I believe before you mock what you do not know

John in that verse is simply referring to some false brethren that walked with them for awhile. There is no mystery about it, it simply means what it says.

Yes it does mean what it says, A person who denys christ is an antichrist.

many have walked away.

they were never saved to begin with.

refutes all teachings that a christian can deny God and lose salvation.

Also, confessing the Son includes confessing Him by how you live which is why a few verses before it says...

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

No, We can not keep his commands unless we know him, we have to be saved first. until then we can do not good,

John is differntiating a lost or licentious person (one who claims to have faith but has zero works, thus has no change in life) from a truely saved person. (one who is truly saved, and learns to grow in Christ, and proves his faith with his works.)

If you clear all the fluff and get down the bottom line the foundational error is that salvation is viewed as an abstract provision instead of being a manifested state.

The underlying error that leads to salvation being taught as an abstract provision is that of inborn sin. Inborn sin is a gnostic heresy rooted in dualism where the flesh is recognised as evil apart from the state of the soul. Thus the church system teaches salvation by the simple "acknowledgment of facts" as opposed to the "application of truth."

Thus the gospel in the church system is "confess, trust and receive" as opposed to "repent and obey."

Due to the teaching of the inborn sin nature is is viewed as impossible to stop sinning because sin is a substance of the flesh. One cannot repent of a nature. Thus the whole Gospel has been redefined around this philosophical concept.

It removes the strait gate and narrow way, counting the cost, digging deep, being a doer of the word, sinning no more, denying self, crucifying the flesh etc. All those teachings are viewed as "subsequent" to the provisional salvation package.

That is why most will say "works" follow salvation or "repentance" follows salvation. It is all based upon strongholds in the mind which people have been taught for many years and they have never questioned them.

What is taught in the church system today bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the early church taught, they would be horrified to see today's mess.

sorry my friend. You are teaching what the jews taught. sinless perfection by law, and then you will be saved. and not what God and the apostles taught, We are sinners with no hope. get saved, then God will help you with your sin.

a person dead to christ can not stop sin, we was make them alive before they can even begin to learn how to live like christ.

 

[IMINJC]

Now we have people logging on to this thread that are currently engaged into some habitual sinful activities and they are juggling those activities with their Christianity. I personally know a couple who are leaders in their church and they are heavely involved in the wife swapping scene, they are friends of mine and I grew up with them both, I had the opportunity to talk with the wife but not to the husband about repenting and turning away from that lifestyle.

So the real question here is "What do we tell these Christians that are reading this thread every day that are caught in situations like my friends?" Is Tommy4Christ, Zilla64007, Skinski7 and myself wrong for crying out REPENT!.....Or should we just teach them that they should not listen to those people that are always saying to repent, because they are trying to get you to save yourself?

 

[Bornfromabove]

Original Sin does NOT teach that. Original Sin teaches that man is BORN genetically sinful, and cannot do anything good....

I wouldn't say we couldn't do anything good, but I believe we were born with a sinful nature.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

There was no law until Moses, and when their is no law, there is no sin because sin is transgression of the law. How is it that death still reigned then? Because we have all sinned through Adam. When it says "for all have sinned", the word "have" is not in the text....it says "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all sinned: