Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Gideon300]

You've nailed it in one paragraph.

Where the appetite exists for obstinately doing what we want, in spite of the commands of God, we are venturing to bring to bear something we have no right to. God's will be done, not mine.

But like Satan, the disobedient want to neglect God's will to establish their own. A delusion that is sure to come to naught.

The point of contention with free will is not in defining freedom, but identifying the self which is willing it. Kinda seems like a moot point, when we're all accountable for our choices and will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Absolutely. I studied Spurgeon on this issue. I concluded that God is Sovereign and man is responsible. God is not a helpless bystander; neither can man wriggle out of his own culpability by saying God made him sin.

 

[Mem]

Nah.

At any rate, we all must now endure within a hostile environment as the LORD told them would happen. Perhaps only because I live life as a woman, but it (the world) seems (to me) especially hostile to us. And indeed, even within the perfect environment of the garden this was so as I view lies as an assault when directed toward any person. It is at the least hostile by nature. I mean, I might say that lies lead to death and not be in any way wrong, and Jesus is the only one that actually stepped in to absorb the damage done.

I'm struggling to understand the reasoning that it was love that resulted in Adam's death in a similar way, if he knew that it would lead to death for all because Adam was aware of the promise of Christ scenario. I only know that the first revelation written in scripture of the coming of Christ was spoken to Eve.

 

[LifelongLearner]

You've nailed it in one paragraph.

Where the appetite exists for obstinately doing what we want, in spite of the commands of God, we are venturing to bring to bear something we have no right to. God's will be done, not mine.

But like Satan, the disobedient want to neglect God's will to establish their own. A delusion that is sure to come to naught.

The point of contention with free will is not in defining freedom, but identifying the self which is willing it. Kinda seems like a moot point, when we're all accountable for our choices and will stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Think your example proves free will doesn't exist, Satan sinned for sure but the opposite of what he wanted to happen ensued. He made a choice which he didn't have the agency/power to make happen, it was wishful thinking on his part.

However, God does have free will, he knew all this would happen but the gain is clearly worth the pain to him. It's possible he wants us to see how evil things are if we don't follow his recipe for life, not just say thou shalt not. Personally think he wants us to understand and grow in knowledge, to truly be his children who not only love and appreciate their Father, they know if questions ever arise, HE is the answer.

 

[Mem]

...And being true to my nature I continue to think on the subject of the possibility of love resulting in Adam's death even after submitting my post.

Adam could've reasoned, "Ok, we have to all die now since Eve is a moron, and I love her."
However, was that perfect love? Did Adam actually possess perfect love?
It is a given that, as scripture says, we are perfected in love.

 

[Magenta]

...And being true to my nature I continue to think on the subject of the possibility of love resulting in Adam's death even after submitting my post.

Adam could've reasoned, "Ok, we have to all die now since Eve is a moron, and I love her."
However, was that perfect love? Did Adam actually possess perfect love?
It is a given that, as scripture says, we are perfected in love.

Perfect love casts out fear. I have asked this before, since part of the reason Eve ate was she was told she would not surely die... and that in fact was the deception, since the serpent also said it would give them knowledge, and God agreed with that assessment... so, the question being, did she fear death? Because if that was part of her reasoning, she/they could have simply eaten from the Tree of Life. And, again, it was known by God that that is not the choice they would make, since Jesus was already purposed (definitely not a "Plan B").

“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take
also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” <= I have heard many say that the serpent lied about these
things, but obviously the lie was about not surely dying, and unfortunately that lie is repeated to this very day.

I am reminded here of Jesus' exchange with Peter post resurrection: "Do you love me?" (x 3)
Jesus spoke in terms of agape love, but Peter could only respond with phileo love.

 

[posthuman]

...And being true to my nature I continue to think on the subject of the possibility of love resulting in Adam's death even after submitting my post.

Adam could've reasoned, "Ok, we have to all die now since Eve is a moron, and I love her."
However, was that perfect love? Did Adam actually possess perfect love?
It is a given that, as scripture says, we are perfected in love.

since we know he wasn't deceived, it is true that in some sense he sacrificed himself - he wasn't deceived about what he was doing and what the consequences were: he knowingly chose to do what would result in his dying.

but why did he make this choice? God says, because he listened to the voice of his wife. what she said to him could not have been something deceitful - she did not tempt him with the words the serpent had spoken to her.

 

[Magenta]

since we know he wasn't deceived, it is true that in some sense he sacrificed himself - he wasn't deceived about
what he was doing and what the consequences were: he knowingly chose to do what would result in his dying.

but why did he make this choice? God says, because he listened to the voice of his wife. what she said to him
could not have been something deceitful - she did not tempt him with the words the serpent had spoken to her.

Since Adam was not deceived, he still could have been told what the serpent said without
believing it as Eve had... and eaten anyways as you say out of a desire to sacrifice his life.

Eve could also have simply said, here, have some of this with me. She need not have explained anything.

But I do believe Adam was present while her communication with beguiling serpent happened.

I just don't think it necessary to assume he heard any of it, or even that it was audible.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It seems that my point only whizzed by your ear. I hope it didn't mess up your hair.

Okay ….. and Ehh it’s falling out anyways lol no worries sis .

 

[Mem]

since we know he wasn't deceived, it is true that in some sense he sacrificed himself - he wasn't deceived about what he was doing and what the consequences were: he knowingly chose to do what would result in his dying.

but why did he make this choice? God says, because he listened to the voice of his wife. what she said to him could not have been something deceitful - she did not tempt him with the words the serpent had spoken to her.

Can't it mean that he just didn't believe any lie that he heard? However, that the tree was "pleasant to look at" is more of an opinion but not actually a lie, and similarly so with "good for food" and "can make one wise," since these (unlies?) can be derived from the categorically subjective interpretations.

 

[Kainos]

Think your example proves free will doesn't exist, Satan sinned for sure but the opposite of what he wanted to happen ensued. He made a choice which he didn't have the agency/power to make happen, it was wishful thinking on his part.

That much is true.

In the blinded minds of the faithless, the devil's subterfuge has taken advantage of God's patience in waiting, something afforded to us for the sake of repentance, and saddled mankind with a permissive sense of freedom, which was not the purpose for God's leniency.

A live and let live attitude, doing what you love while incarcerated by a depraved mind. That's not freedom, but in no way justifiable either.

However, God does have free will, he knew all this would happen but the gain is clearly worth the pain to him. It's possible he wants us to see how evil things are if we don't follow his recipe for life, not just say thou shalt not.

I'm inclined to agree.

It could be argued that God allows the devil to afflict the unbelieving to the point of blight and spoilation, to give them a belly full of life's uglier motivations. That some might seek disentanglement from walking according to the course of this world, to the purpose of salvation and eventual receipt of the Crown of Life.

Personally think he wants us to understand and grow in knowledge, to truly be his children who not only love and appreciate their Father, they know if questions ever arise, HE is the answer.

Amen 🙏

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yeah... you just said something to me... no words were spoken, and nobody heard a thing. Ponder that and you
might come to a deeper understanding of what I am talking about, instead of just dismissing it offhandedly.

John 8:43, 47, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:8 ~ John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” John 8:47 “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.

I just said the words I said actually and there wasn’t anything “ unsaid “

God has always done this simple thing : He just says what he wants us to hear and know and believe and do and have. And says what he wants us to not believe and do and be destroyed by . Then we either accept it or we reject it


It’s Strange God gave man ears to hear words and a mouth to speak words anda mind to understand words and communicate with them but then we look for something that we perceive that’s unspoken for what the person is saying ……seems like a hard way to communicate in a forum that limits us to the words we write back and forth but ….I guess

to me this isn’t really a controversy to agree that eve spoke to Adam and then he hearkened to what she said and ate the fruit .

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Doesn’t seem a stretch or even a guess to acknolwedge what’s said there plainly but others might read that as “ your wife looked at you and you are the fruit “ or “ your wife never said anything to you and you ate the fruit “


I hear this when I read it and don’t think it’s meant to be “ interpreted “

“Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,

and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake”


maybe she said it ….with a look idk sis I just dont see any basis for that when God created and designed mankind alone to speak and hear and understand and communicate write down and read and grasp and record ect words when the entire Bible is written with actual words meant for man to actually hear and believe ect


I believe everyone here has the freedom to interpret what they want to in things for thier better or worse . just seems we have different opinions once again which is alright much better than arguing and bickering on and on with you sister.

 

[posthuman]

Since Adam was not deceived, he still could have been told what the serpent said without
believing it as Eve had... and eaten anyways as you say out of a desire to sacrifice his life.

but that would not be 'listening to the voice of his wife' -- it would have been, specifically NOT listening to what she said.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Can't it mean that he just didn't believe any lie that he heard? However, that the tree was "pleasant to look at" is more of an opinion but not actually a lie, and similarly so with "good for food" and "can make one wise," since these (unlies?) can be derived from the categorically subjective interpretations.

You are what i think is wise, rocks that you're a woman/lioness too. Old in years but a very young believer, there are still many things which make my jaw drop, I do wonder if the tree they eat from was just beautiful rather than had special qualities. God provided such beauty, wonder and abundance, spent time with and taught them too, his only command being not to eat from that tree.

Satan did tempt Eve but there seems to be wilfulness in her actions too, she gazed at the tree and it began to look good to her. Satan definitely deserves the approbation heaped on him but we're actually our own worst enemy at times, thinking too about how God offered loving, wise counsel to Cain before he murdered Abel. Think we probably had free will before the fall, we also can still make some powerful choices and decisions even now but from what i've seen, such occasions are few and far between.

 

[posthuman]

Eve could also have simply said, here, have some of this with me. She need not have explained anything.

Adam knows what it is she is giving to him, or else he is deceived.
likewise she can't be trying to persuade him it is anything other than death to eat, otherwise he is either deceived, or not listening to her.

 

[posthuman]

You are what i think is wise, rocks that you're a woman/lioness too. Old in years but a very young believer, there are still many things which make my jaw drop, I do wonder if the tree they eat from was just beautiful rather than had special qualities. God provided such beauty, wonder and abundance, spent time with and taught them too, his only command being not to eat from that tree.

yes we love Mem, for sure

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Can't it mean that he just didn't believe any lie that he heard? However, that the tree was "pleasant to look at" is more of an opinion but not actually a lie, and similarly so with "good for food" and "can make one wise," since these (unlies?) can be derived from the categorically subjective interpretations.

The only lie was that the fruit wouldn’t bring death to them. That’s still the lie that gets us “ sin won’t harm you it’s wages aren’t death ….the fruit won’t hurt you “ the rest of what he said was true he only lied about the commandment God had given warning of death

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

( that’s the subtle and deadly lie )

for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The rest is true knowledge . Thier eyes were opened and then also

“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the part that mattered was the commandment and the words in it

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

The lie was where it matters

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:”

 

[Mem]

yes we love Mem, for sure

Muaah! I'm carrying this thought into work with me! ... and not without remembering to take the valentine's cookies I had bake for them even though I have been hesitant because they taste a little funny.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is because of the Bible, even all those verses are great reasons, to reject the scam of freewill, for there is no decision made without influence or consequence. In fact all these verses give excellent proof to believe in God's will and that God's will indeed will be done and these verses do well to rob them of their excuses. Indeed Jesus will return and mete out all judgment, and not even a single person will ever escape this ultimate destiny.

Matthew 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

yeah many go on walking in darkness but there’s light still in the world

 

[LifelongLearner]

That much is true.

In the blinded minds of the faithless, the devil's subterfuge has taken advantage of God's patience in waiting, something afforded to us for the sake of repentance, and saddled mankind with a permissive sense of freedom, which was not the purpose for God's leniency.

A live and let live attitude, doing what you love while incarcerated by a depraved mind. That's not freedom, but in no way justifiable either.


I'm inclined to agree.

It could be argued that God allows the devil to afflict the unbelieving to the point of blight and spoilation, to give them a belly full of life's uglier motivations. That some might seek disentanglement from walking according to the course of this world, to the purpose of salvation and eventual receipt of the Crown of Life.

Amen 🙏

Cheers Kainos, the more i think about God providing us with such love, beauty and wonder, KNOWING the pain and grief it would cause him too, the more awed and appreciative i am of Him. Currently i can only think, the payoff must be so awesome it far outweighs the suffering, am a newish believer but have often had moments in the beautiful outdoors where i thought there must be a Creator. My children were literally born walking, just walking too and from school could turn into an adventure for them

Agree with near all your comment, maybe people need to believe they're free because the increasingly obvious reality, is becoming too scary for them?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Bingo! But don't overlook the fact that Adam and Eve had knowledge that we could only dream of. They were face to face with a BENEVOLENT God.......Basically look at it like this....They had our bible on steriods.

Adam knew what was going on.........And he trusted His Savior to fix the problem.

Yeah that’s one theory not really aware of a single scripture that suggests it or anything but it’s a theory but if we were to look at scripture with an open kk d would it lead there or somewhere else ?

If God said this first

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then this conversation happened

“And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:2-5‬ ‭

what if then her perception changed from what God said about the fruit to what the serpent said ?

“And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, ( God said it was certain death now she thinks it’s good for food ) and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can see here what happened it seems elementary then we get more details of how this had transpired and how Adam had come to eat the fruit when she gave it to him

“And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭

seems like she was convinced the fruit would t hurt them and would make them wise after her talk with the serpent . And seems as if she probably would have said something about that “ look honey the serpent said it wouldnt hurt us so I ate some and it didnt hurt me here have some “

i do t think there’s any reason to create a suicide pact there’s nothing there to suggest it but Satan lying and beguiling mankind and leading them astray with false doctrine is throughout the Bible im many ways and warnings