C
cfultz3
Guest
But, if you are lead by the Spirit, you fulfill that same "TORAH".
One is by our flesh and the other is by our spirit hearkening to the Spirit.
CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE
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But, if you are lead by the Spirit, you fulfill that same "TORAH".
One is by our flesh and the other is by our spirit hearkening to the Spirit.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Who is anti-torah here? I do not see anyone who is against the torah? Or have I missed someone?
I do see alot of people who understand it and know its true purpose though.
your bringing up this question again matt? ask yourself this why would paul preach something contrary to what God said, ask yourself this also everysingle word of the bible is the truth, correct? the Jews are currently blinded they cannot get pass moses law because they cannot recognise Jesus the bible said so, i can't believe you would go so far enough to deny part of the bible and accuse it of being false? just so you can continue in your wrong? are you seriously doing this?
By "Anti-Torah", I actually meant Anti-Law followers. As in those who think Christians should follow the physical commands of the Law.
My apologies for not clarifying more.
For the unbeliever, a resounding, "Yes". But, we, as believers, are no longer carnal minded but have died to the flesh so that by our spirit, we can be lead by the Spirit. The physical aspects of the Law is a schoolmaster to led to Christ. (I know you know this but saying it to explain my point)
I also think this (see above).
Bless you Sister
Just to let you know I'm your sisters husband. I just told her and she laughed. GBU.
Going on, I see it that if one is Spiritually minded they are subordinate to the law as Paul puts it in Romans 8:7. If you were to paraphrase that, how would you say it? It's another crux as I see it. Mystery of sorts. If you are carnally minded you are under the law but not subordinate to the law, because you can't be. So who can be subordinate to the law except those that are believers in Christ? But, if a believer in Christ is wrong by being subordinate to the law of God, and being under the law, who can ever be subordinate to the law?
Not at all Josh, and you should know my stance on this from the past. Paul's words are completely true, and I would in no way deny any parts of the Bible as being false. All Scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching.
I'm just making the observation that when we're discussing God's stance on the Law, there's very little reference to God's actual words regarding the Law.
I agree with you. And the Spirit causes us to read and physically act out the Torah. If you're doing if strictly in your flesh it warrants nothing except a healthier lifestyle (Kosher, Sabbaths, etc). If you're physically doing it by the Spirit, you gain an intimacy with God and that healthier lifestyle.
Again, I was just pointing out the minimal amount of Jesus' words regarding the Torah being quoted.
everyword paul spoke is the knowledge of the holy spirit which is God, he wasn't speaking on his behalf but the knowledge the spirit showed him, so i don't know what you are trying to get at
Here's how I see it. If one is an unbeliever in Christ Jesus, they are under the law. If one outwardly states that they don't believe in Christ Jesus as the true Messiah, they are also under the law. If a person believes as Peter did, that Jesus Christ is the true Messiah, and relies on His salvation for their failing to be perfect according to the law, they are NOT under the law, and are not claiming perfection by the law just because they advocate the law as good and holy and just as Paul did in Romans chapter 7. ICU as NOT being a legalistic person, or one who seeks justification by the Mosaic Law. I see myself the same way as I see you. GBU
I agree completely. And I would say that Paul's words advocate following the Law. Why? Because he spoke because of the knowledge the Spirit showed Him. Because of the knowledge Jesus showed Him. And because Jesus told His followers to follow the Law.
If you and I both agree that Paul speaks the godly truth (which you and I both do), yet we have differing perspectives on what Paul was actually trying to say, it only makes sense that we would go back to the source of Paul's words: Jesus' words.
I'm observing there is very little reference to Jesus' words in that regard.
C
cfultz3
Guest
Sorry about that BROTHER
Rom 8:7-8 ....Because the mind concerning itself with the flesh is hostile against God, seeing that it is absolutely not submitted to God's Law, and neither indeed can it be subjugated (Present passive indicative) to God's Law. Now, they who are being by the flesh is not able to please God.
They way I see this is that those who have their mind (soul) on the flesh has not submitted to God's Law (Love). And it cannot be subjugated to God's Law because it is still in the flesh and have not died to it so that it can live to its spirit.
The Spirit leads by God's Law. God is Love. They who are His do Love.
The soul which is lead by the flesh have yet died.
To answer your question: their are two sets of Laws: God's Law and the Law of sin. We, as Christians, are lead by God's Law. They who are unbelievers in our Christ our subjugated to the Law of sin and death.
Think about what Jesus said to those that try to justify themselves by the Mosaic law rather than Himself. He connects Himself with the writings of Moses in that if we believe the writings of Moses, we can believe the Word of God, who is Christ Jesus. Furthermore, the law of Moses accuses them because they chose to be under the law. The Law cannot accuse people who believe Christ Jesus as the true Messiah, henceforth they are not under it but are subordinate (subject) to it.
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:44-47 (KJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Sorry about that BROTHER
Rom 8:7-8 ....Because the mind concerning itself with the flesh is hostile against God, seeing that it is absolutely not submitted to God's Law, and neither indeed can it be subjugated (Present passive indicative) to God's Law. Now, they who are being by the flesh is not able to please God.
They way I see this is that those who have their mind (soul) on the flesh has not submitted to God's Law (Love). And it cannot be subjugated to God's Law because it is still in the flesh and have not died to it so that it can live to its spirit.
The Spirit leads by God's Law. God is Love. They who are His do Love.
The soul which is lead by the flesh have yet died.
To answer your question: their are two sets of Laws: God's Law and the Law of sin. We, as Christians, are lead by God's Law. They who are unbelievers in our Christ our subjugated to the Law of sin and death.
Well spoken. That's ok about the gender thing.
I thought of James when reading what you wrote. James 1:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
I see the entire Word of God as a mirror. Genesis through Revelation.
C
cfultz3
Guest
Are you saying, "He does cause us to read and act out God's Law (Goodness and Love) found in the Torah"? Are you including the other parts of the Law?
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Lets all boast of our ability to follow the law. Lets all condemn others who can not do it by judging them as not being followers of the law.
Better yet. Lets all be like David, Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire.
Ever have that thing you REALLY wanted to do, although you KNEW it was wrong. It kept tugging at you. But all you could think of was the law (do not do this) Then after continued going back and forth in your head. DOn't do this, But I want to. Dont do this, But I want to. You fall to temptation? After doing this a few times, you become hardened to the law. As paul said, The law revived, Sin increased. And I died.
This is what happens when you follow law.
Instead of looking at the law. And continually telling yourself not to do it. Instead look to the spirit. Think spiritual things, What would God have me do today, How can God use me, who does God need me to touch with his love. If we did this in the first place. We never would have been tempted or even thought of the sin. And we never would have sinned.
This is why we do not look to the law to be righteous. We look to God. Trust him in all areas. Look to the spirit.
I am sorry people think I am downing Gods law. Or think I think we should just discount it. I don't.
On the contrary, I saw isreal for 2000 years TRY to follow the law and fail. I see people in my early life at a law fearing church try, and fail, many fall away, because they could not do it.. I see God, Jesus and Paul teach not to look to the law. But the gospel. and if we do this, we will learn to trust God. Mature in Christ, and learn to live like he did.
Do you think Christ went around, Do not lie. so I am not going to lie. Do not murder.. So I am not going to murder?? NO!! He concentrated on doing the things GOD HAD FOR HIM TO DO in EVERY MOMENT OF HIS LIFE. And in doing so. He fullfilled the law. Not because he followed THE LAW. But because he followed HIS FATHER And trusted him in ALL THINGS.
Better yet. Lets all be like David, Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire.
Ever have that thing you REALLY wanted to do, although you KNEW it was wrong. It kept tugging at you. But all you could think of was the law (do not do this) Then after continued going back and forth in your head. DOn't do this, But I want to. Dont do this, But I want to. You fall to temptation? After doing this a few times, you become hardened to the law. As paul said, The law revived, Sin increased. And I died.
This is what happens when you follow law.
Instead of looking at the law. And continually telling yourself not to do it. Instead look to the spirit. Think spiritual things, What would God have me do today, How can God use me, who does God need me to touch with his love. If we did this in the first place. We never would have been tempted or even thought of the sin. And we never would have sinned.
This is why we do not look to the law to be righteous. We look to God. Trust him in all areas. Look to the spirit.
I am sorry people think I am downing Gods law. Or think I think we should just discount it. I don't.
On the contrary, I saw isreal for 2000 years TRY to follow the law and fail. I see people in my early life at a law fearing church try, and fail, many fall away, because they could not do it.. I see God, Jesus and Paul teach not to look to the law. But the gospel. and if we do this, we will learn to trust God. Mature in Christ, and learn to live like he did.
Do you think Christ went around, Do not lie. so I am not going to lie. Do not murder.. So I am not going to murder?? NO!! He concentrated on doing the things GOD HAD FOR HIM TO DO in EVERY MOMENT OF HIS LIFE. And in doing so. He fullfilled the law. Not because he followed THE LAW. But because he followed HIS FATHER And trusted him in ALL THINGS.
C
cfultz3
Guest
This is worth posting on every page as a reminder....
Eternally Grateful,
Thank you for your words........
Hate to hear that brother. I have found that a prayer for deliverance helps, because it confirms a trust that our prayer will be answered because it in His name. We all are temped to one degree or another.
Hebrews 4:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
1 John 5:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is true.
But again, If I was not focused on the law. But instead focused on what God wanted me to do at that minute. I would not need to pray for deliverance. I would instead pray for the knowledge of what God needed me to do. and the will to do it. and the power to succeed!
If on the other hand, I keep focusing on the law. I am not going to Know what God wants me to do. I am going to be reminded again and again of the sin I struggle with. And I will continue to fail.
