Concerning Time and a Few Thougts

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Nov 12, 2015
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#61
Here's a interesting fact about the human body, minors and people who have spent a lot of time underground without no visual signs of the sun rise or sunset the moon or anything, still the body knows when the sun rises and sets for these people have slept and been awake in complete darkness 24hours a day but can wake with the sun rise their eyes can't see under ground..
It's called circadian rhythm. It's just built in, which is cool. People can develop a disturbance with that though and...I think they don't have that sense of sleepiness when they should. I think I remember reading that if people go against their circadian rhythm for long enough, like years, they can get it out of whack.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#62
What you just described is a MEASUREMENT of time... not time itself.

The thing you use to measure is not the same at the thing you are measuring.
- A yard stick is not the same as the yard of fabric you are measuring.
- A clock is not the same as the time you are measuring with it.
- When you change your clock for Daylight Saving Time... are you actually CHANGING THE FLOW OF THE DIMENSION CALLED "TIME"... or are you just changing your clock?


This is VERY BASIC LOGIC, and VERY BASIC SCIENCE.
- if I point out simple basic logic, and simple basic science... and you just want to disagree because "you think it ain't so"... there is nothing left for me to say.
- Go to any science teacher, anywhere, and ask him if there is a difference between the SUN, and the DIMENSION WE CALL TIME.

I'm not trying to be unkind.
But this is just too silly to even debate.
It isn't a matter of opinion.
They just aren't the same thing.

Go ask a scientist.
Ask any scientist anywhere... find a christian scientist... it doesn't matter.
Go ask a scientist.

Go to any high school, and ask any science teacher with any science degree at all.

If you don't trust scientists, ask any philosophy major, who's trained in logic.

If you don't like scientists or philosophers, go ask any English major, who's trained at reading CAREFULLY.

* Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but logic and science don't just STOP because we have an OPINION.
* God did a great and mighty miracle... there is no harm in trying to properly understand what he actually did.
Good post time is such a interesting thing we as people do have to ability to either slow it down or speed it up or stop time all together depending on the object we want to change the time of.. Take the human body today we have invented the cryogenic device which can suspend all decaying of cells in the body, In our world Nature has cryogenics in place too called the permafrost layer though not as suspending as cryogenics or the coldness of space...
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
#63
It's called circadian rhythm. It's just built in, which is cool. People can develop a disturbance with that though and...I think they don't have that sense of sleepiness when they should. I think I remember reading that if people go against their circadian rhythm for long enough, like years, they can get it out of whack.
Yup spot on pretty cool it is... :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#64
What you just described is a MEASUREMENT of time... not time itself.

The thing you use to measure is not the same at the thing you are measuring.
- A yard stick is not the same as the yard of fabric you are measuring.
- A clock is not the same as the time you are measuring with it.
- When you change your clock for Daylight Saving Time... are you actually CHANGING THE FLOW OF THE DIMENSION CALLED "TIME"... or are you just changing your clock?


This is VERY BASIC LOGIC, and VERY BASIC SCIENCE.
- if I point out simple basic logic, and simple basic science... and you just want to disagree because "you think it ain't so"... there is nothing left for me to say.
- Go to any science teacher, anywhere, and ask him if there is a difference between the SUN, and the DIMENSION WE CALL TIME.

I'm not trying to be unkind.
But this is just too silly to even debate.
It isn't a matter of opinion.
They just aren't the same thing.

Go ask a scientist.
Ask any scientist anywhere... find a christian scientist... it doesn't matter.
Go ask a scientist.

Go to any high school, and ask any science teacher with any science degree at all.

If you don't trust scientists, ask any philosophy major, who's trained in logic.

If you don't like scientists or philosophers, go ask any English major, who's trained at reading CAREFULLY.

* Again, I'm not trying to be unkind, but logic and science don't just STOP because we have an OPINION.
* God did a great and mighty miracle... there is no harm in trying to properly understand what he actually did.
I disagreed when you said, "God halted a physical thing like the sun." The sun is stationary and it's the earth He would have stopped. But I knew what you meant to convey so I didn't bring it up. Then you did it again when you said, "If I've altered the path of the sun..." But once again, I understood what you were meaning, even though the sun is stationary.

But that's beside the point because what I was saying I thought I disagreed with was the idea that the sun and our orbiting around it has nothing to do with time. But then, I would have argued when science said the earth was flat too, because it says in the bible that it's round.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#65
But on further thought, I can maybe see that the sun doesn't have so much to do with time because...time began marking a few days BEFORE the sun was created...the first few days were called off by God before the sun was created. That always was confusing to me.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#66
Time could really be seen as the bosses dayplanner. It will cease when there is no death and nothing but eternity in His presence. When He checks off the last thing on His dayplanner, time will cease and eternity and an eternal earth will begin and never end.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#67
I disagreed when you said, "God halted a physical thing like the sun." The sun is stationary and it's the earth He would have stopped. But I knew what you meant to convey so I didn't bring it up. Then you did it again when you said, "If I've altered the path of the sun..." But once again, I understood what you were meaning, even though the sun is stationary.

But that's beside the point because what I was saying I thought I disagreed with was the idea that the sun and our orbiting around it has nothing to do with time. But then, I would have argued when science said the earth was flat too, because it says in the bible that it's round.
I was only using the same LANGUAGE used in scripture to describe the event.

Clearly God did "something" with the rotation of the EARTH.

We all understand that.

I didn't think using the same language as the bible would create a problem.


Nonetheless, all the points I made still hold, and still come out the same.
- Exchange "rotation of the earth" for the word "sun"
- It all comes out the same.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as "the rotation of the physical planet we call earth"
- These are not the same.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as a physical planet.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as the rotation of a planet.
- One has nothing to do with the other.

* We use clocks and sun dials to "measure" time... clocks and sundials are NOT time.
* The thing we use to measure (like a clock) is not the same as the thing being measured (like time).

I really have no idea what our dispute is about.


* If you don't like me using the same words which are used in the Bible... sorry... I've changed that now.

* Just substitute the word "earth" for the word "sun", and all of my points still stand... exactly as presented.

If you think the earth creates the "dimension of time"... or the rotation of the earth creates the "dimension of time".... then please just talk to any scientist, any engineer, any philosopher, or even any english teacher who is trained to read carefully.
 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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#68
StunnedbyGrace,

Let's go ahead and add some scientific opinion by experts.

* In Joshua 10:11-13, we see God creating a day in which there was sunlight for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

* The bible does NOT say exactly WHAT God did in the physical universe to create this effect.

* So, let's see what a famous scientist, who's a Christian, has to say.




Scientific Article:
I'm referencing an article from Creation Ministries International.
I'll link the article at the bottom of this post.
The article is written by a scientist, and it explain 3 different things God "may" have done, to create the effect of "Joshua's long day".

The three possibilities he mentions in the article:
A. Some kind of light refraction, so light contiued to be thrown into the area longer than normal.
B. Some kind of wobble to the earth's axis
C. Some kind of slowing of the earth's rotation.

The "dimension of TIME" is absent from the article... as it has nothing to do with Joshua10:11-13
1. None of the 3 possibilities (listed above) have anything to do with the "altering of the dimension we call time".
2. Nothing in this entire article, by this famous scientist, has anything to do with the "altering of the dimension we call time"
3. Nowhere, in this article, is the "dimension of time" even mentioned at all... because it is IRRELEVANT.

God altered SUNLIGHT, in some way... but he did not alter the "flow of the dimension of TIME"
1. Clearly, if daylight lasted a long time, we would "measure" that day differently than other days.
2. But, none of this means the actual "flow of the dimension of time" stopped or changed.
3. If God had ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME... everything would have stopped... everything would have frozen... Joshua, his army, the enemy, the birds... everything would have stopped and just been FROZEN IN PLACE.... if the "flow of the dimension of time" had stopped.

Let me reiterate:
If God had ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME... everything would have stopped... everything would have frozen... Joshua, his army, the enemy, the birds... everything would have stopped and just been FROZEN IN PLACE.... if the "flow of the dimension of time" had stopped.


ARTICLE LINK:
Joshua's Long Day
by Russell M. Grigg
Russel Griggs is a well known scientist and theologian.
He holds degrees in chemistry and theology.

Joshua’s long day - creation.com







 
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Dec 12, 2013
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#69
As someone once mentioned take another hit.. its been proven that the faster a person travels time slows for a person thats Gforce black out.. its never been proven people can do that its just a theory. does light its self a phycial matter that comes out from your tabletop lamp stop while traveling at light speed but its a pipe dream God cant create earth and its inhabitants over a period of 4.5 billion yrs
Try again....science has proven by satellites and the speed of objects that the faster something moves time slows....maybe have a few more facts before you talk :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#70
I think I disagree. The sun and moon were MADE for the marking of the passing of time. We have no way to gauge time other than by them. If it is suddenly 8 a.m. instead of 1 p.m., then you will be reliving the previous 5 hours again. Whether you want to describe time as a thing, a dimension or a curse - if you relive 5 hours of it, you went backwards in it.
Exactly....the evening and the morning = the first day....the division of light and darkness.....perfect gauge of time.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#71
I don’t know for sure, but I don’t think God uses time like we do. I think that he sets time by his own will and there is a time or a season and purpose for everything (ECCLESIASTICS 3). I know people have referenced the day of the Lord, in my opinion that’s probably not going to be a 24 hour thing. Scripture says that of the hour and day knows no man. That could be because we cannot calculate or see or understand time in God’s way.
Yeah....same on the day of the Lord....I believe the day of the Lord, Christ and God are one and the same day that lasts 1000 years.......Jesus is Lord, God and Christ and this day commences at the 7th trump in my view when as Lord he seizes control of all earthy kingdoms, as Christ rewards the saints, prophets and those who fear him while as God his wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving gathered under the beast....
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#72
Regardless of his view....

A. Does it not say clearly that the sun stood still?[
B. The measurement of a day was based upon the evening and the morning......

QUOTE=maxwel;2902252]StunnedbyGrace,

Let's go ahead and add some scientific opinion by experts.

* In Joshua 10:11-13, we see God creating a day in which there was sunlight for a LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

* The bible does NOT say exactly WHAT God did in the physical universe to create this effect.

* So, let's see what a famous scientist, who's a Christian, has to say.




Scientific Article:
I'm referencing an article from Creation Ministries International.
I'll link the article at the bottom of this post.
The article is written by a scientist, and it explain 3 different things God "may" have done, to create the effect of "Joshua's long day".

The three possibilities he mentions in the article:
A. Some kind of light refraction, so light contiued to be thrown into the area longer than normal.
B. Some kind of wobble to the earth's axis
C. Some kind of slowing of the earth's rotation.

The "dimension of TIME" is absent from the article... as it has nothing to do with Joshua10:11-13
1. None of the 3 possibilities (listed above) have anything to do with the "altering of the dimension we call time".
2. Nothing in this entire article, by this famous scientist, has anything to do with the "altering of the dimension we call time"
3. Nowhere, in this article, is the "dimension of time" even mentioned at all... because it is IRRELEVANT.

God altered SUNLIGHT, in some way... but he did not alter the "flow of the dimension of TIME"
1. Clearly, if daylight lasted a long time, we would "measure" that day differently than other days.
2. But, none of this means the actual "flow of the dimension of time" stopped or changed.
3. If God had ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME... everything would have stopped... everything would have frozen... Joshua, his army, the enemy, the birds... everything would have stopped and just been FROZEN IN PLACE.... if the "flow of the dimension of time" had stopped.

Let me reiterate:
If God had ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME... everything would have stopped... everything would have frozen... Joshua, his army, the enemy, the birds... everything would have stopped and just been FROZEN IN PLACE.... if the "flow of the dimension of time" had stopped.


ARTICLE LINK:
Joshua's Long Day
by Russell M. Grigg
Russel Griggs is a well known scientist and theologian.
He holds degrees in chemistry and theology.

Joshua’s long day - creation.com







[/QUOTE]
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#73
Just a thought on God stopping the sun. The sun is moving through a galaxy that is moving through a universe full of other moving galaxies. To stop the sun would require stopping the entire universe...how great is our God!!
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#74
I was only using the same LANGUAGE used in scripture to describe the event.

Clearly God did "something" with the rotation of the EARTH.

We all understand that.

I didn't think using the same language as the bible would create a problem.


Nonetheless, all the points I made still hold, and still come out the same.
- Exchange "rotation of the earth" for the word "sun"
- It all comes out the same.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as "the rotation of the physical planet we call earth"
- These are not the same.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as a physical planet.
- The "dimension we call time" is not the same as the rotation of a planet.
- One has nothing to do with the other.

* We use clocks and sun dials to "measure" time... clocks and sundials are NOT time.
* The thing we use to measure (like a clock) is not the same as the thing being measured (like time).

I really have no idea what our dispute is about.


* If you don't like me using the same words which are used in the Bible... sorry... I've changed that now.

* Just substitute the word "earth" for the word "sun", and all of my points still stand... exactly as presented.

If you think the earth creates the "dimension of time"... or the rotation of the earth creates the "dimension of time".... then please just talk to any scientist, any engineer, any philosopher, or even any english teacher who is trained to read carefully.
I didn't know we were disputing...I was just having a conversation. :)
When a dispute happens it probably isn't worded as I worded it by saying "I think I disagree with that."
The best way to convince me is with bible verses, which as you can see, wasn't necessary, because just the exercise of having a conversation with my brothers and sisters caused the verse to come up that actually changed my thinking on it somewhat. :)
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#75
Exactly....the evening and the morning = the first day....the division of light and darkness.....perfect gauge of time.....
Well, when you read a bit further in the thread you'll see that I actually came to see it a bit differently - iron sharpening iron and all. :) God began to mark time/days after the uncreated Light was brought forth here. The created light/the sun came a few days later. It's always been a big mystery to me. I mean, I know when He said let there be light, it's speaking of Jesus, (because of the opening verses of John) but I don't understand the rest quite yet.

I really like discussing stuff with you guys though. If we stick with it, patiently, each adding the verses that occur to them as relevant, I usually note more of a coming together in our understanding than going further apart. :)
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
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#76
Regardless of his view....

A. Does it not say clearly that the sun stood still?[
B. The measurement of a day was based upon the evening and the morning......
Hey Bro,

1. Although the bible DOES SAY "the sun stood still"... there are different things God could have done in the natural universe to create this effect. I was simply showing that there are Scientists, who are Christians, who have looked at this, and have varying theories about HOW God may have done it.

I'm not saying this article, or this scientist, is the "last word" about God's miracles.

I was just pointing out that this HAS been discussed by a lot of real scientific minds.


2. You say, "the measure of the day was based upon the evening and the morning"... yes... but that's irrelevant to the point we're discussing.

The point we're discussing, is "WHETHER OR NOT GOD ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME during these astronomical events."

* Stopping the sun or stopping the earth... has nothing to do with stopping the "flow of the dimension of time."
* If the DIMENSION OF TIME WAS STOPPED... then EVERYTHING would have stopped... Joshua, his army, the enemy, everything... everything would have been FROZEN IN PLACE if the dimension of time had actually stopped.

* The reason everything did NOT freeze in place, is because the "dimension of time" did NOT stop.
Stopping the earth, or the sun, is not the same as stopping the "dimension of time"

We are conflating apples and oranges.

But I have to admit, I'm getting worn out.

If no one can tell the difference between apples and oranges... then you win.

You've worn me out, lol.

You may say apples and oranges are the same if you wish.

Carry on.

:)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#77
Hey Bro,

1. Although the bible DOES SAY "the sun stood still"... there are different things God could have done in the natural universe to create this effect. I was simply showing that there are Scientists, who are Christians, who have looked at this, and have varying theories about HOW God may have done it.

I'm not saying this article, or this scientist, is the "last word" about God's miracles.

I was just pointing out that this HAS been discussed by a lot of real scientific minds.


2. You say, "the measure of the day was based upon the evening and the morning"... yes... but that's irrelevant to the point we're discussing.

The point we're discussing, is "WHETHER OR NOT GOD ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME during these astronomical events."

* Stopping the sun or stopping the earth... has nothing to do with stopping the "flow of the dimension of time."
* If the DIMENSION OF TIME WAS STOPPED... then EVERYTHING would have stopped... Joshua, his army, the enemy, everything... everything would have been FROZEN IN PLACE if the dimension of time had actually stopped.

* The reason everything did NOT freeze in place, is because the "dimension of time" did NOT stop.
Stopping the earth, or the sun, is not the same as stopping the "dimension of time"

We are conflating apples and oranges.

But I have to admit, I'm getting worn out.

If no one can tell the difference between apples and oranges... then you win.

You've worn me out, lol.

You may say apples and oranges are the same if you wish.

Carry on.

:)
No problem brother....sometimes I eat an apple and an orange at the same time HAHHA.......really the whole shebang is that God can manipulate time and stands outside the realm of time as the self existent and eternal one who inhabits eternity..... Peace migo
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#78
I'm sorry max, I wasn't trying to wear anyone out. I figure things out as I go - learn as I go and more verses are fit into the puzzle, filling in a hole. :) I'm sorry I made you tired. If it's any consolation, I wear my own self out too a lot of the time.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#80
Hey Bro,

1. Although the bible DOES SAY "the sun stood still"... there are different things God could have done in the natural universe to create this effect. I was simply showing that there are Scientists, who are Christians, who have looked at this, and have varying theories about HOW God may have done it.

I'm not saying this article, or this scientist, is the "last word" about God's miracles.

I was just pointing out that this HAS been discussed by a lot of real scientific minds.


2. You say, "the measure of the day was based upon the evening and the morning"... yes... but that's irrelevant to the point we're discussing.

The point we're discussing, is "WHETHER OR NOT GOD ACTUALLY STOPPED TIME during these astronomical events."

* Stopping the sun or stopping the earth... has nothing to do with stopping the "flow of the dimension of time."
* If the DIMENSION OF TIME WAS STOPPED... then EVERYTHING would have stopped... Joshua, his army, the enemy, everything... everything would have been FROZEN IN PLACE if the dimension of time had actually stopped.

* The reason everything did NOT freeze in place, is because the "dimension of time" did NOT stop.
Stopping the earth, or the sun, is not the same as stopping the "dimension of time"

We are conflating apples and oranges.

But I have to admit, I'm getting worn out.

If no one can tell the difference between apples and oranges... then you win.

You've worn me out, lol.

You may say apples and oranges are the same if you wish.

Carry on.

:)
I've wondered about this event. I know God could do literally what the bible said happened.

But then I thought about the disruption to the whole natural world if the earth was actually made to stand still and then go backwards and then spin the same direction as usual.

Think about what would happen to the magnetic field. Then think about how the magnetic field affects everything.


So then I wondered 'what could make it look like what the bible describes but not necessarily literally what the bible describes'. I started to wonder what if the earth was spinning on a perfect axis and this is the exact moment that God moved the axis to be an actual spinning axis or "wobbling" axis. Depending on which direction the axis was moved would make it look as if the sun was moving from peoples perspectives on earth. And this wouldn't have that dramatic of an effect on the magnetic field or the universe stopping, backing up, and then starting again.

I know we can't answer this definitively but it makes sense to me. Not sure if I am describing it correctly.