Bear in mind that, because "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11" are the same things [at same time-period--including "earthquakes in divers places and famines and pestilences and nation rising against nation" (etc)--same as in Lk21's section before v.12's "BEFORE ALL THESE"], and Matthew's text calls "all these [things] are the beginning of birth pangs"... not "all these are the beginning of birth pangs... and the beginnings again of birth pangs... and the beginning again of birth pangs...," and so on...
...no, it's all these are the "beginning" of them, see...
I'm having trouble reading your formatting, TDW...so I'm going to list what I perceive it's saying without the formatting. Correct me if I'm wrong:
[TDW quote]
all these [things] are the beginning of birth pangs
not...
all these are the beginning of birth pangs...
and the beginnings
again of birth pangs...
and the beginning
again of birth pangs...,
no (rather)...
it's all these are the "beginning" of them.
[end quote]
It seems you're making a point that no one disputes. All three accounts testify to the same series of events beginning. Agreed. What it also seems like you're saying, however, is everything - including the destruction of Jerusalem - is the beginning of sorrows (or "birth pangs" to use similar terms). While an argument can be made in support of this when it comes to
the Messiah's appearance, remember
that was the 2nd question asked. That was not the first question asked. Messiah was dealing with the first question first.
The Olivet Discourse isn't exclusively about the reappearance of the Messiah. The first question Messiah answered was
when will the destruction of the Temple occur? And it's in this context that Messiah shares what was to happen beforehand. So the destruction of the temple can't be beginning birth pangs for itself.
(and Paul in 1Th5:1-3 speaks specifically of the INITIAL one of those ["birth pang [SINGULAR]"] when referencing the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" earthly time-period of judgments unfolding upon the earth, what we call the [7-yr] Tribulation period--"the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" being the Seals of Rev6 WITHIN the "in quickness [noun]" time-period that leads up to [and immediately precedes] Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19, yet "future" to our present time)
...and here it seems you're using
1 Thess 5:1-3 to say that the first/initial birth pang is "sudden destruction". Again, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but there's nothing in the passage that indicates destruction is the first birth pang. It just describes sudden destruction as a woman in travail (which we'll label as "birth pang
s" to keep the same language).
1 Thess 5:1-3 [brackets added]
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as [birth pangs] upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...and it's sudden and immediate only for those who are
in darkness, as the rest of the passage reads:
1 Thess 5:4
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
For those who are not in darkness, destruction will not be sudden and immediate, the implication being that those of the light/day will see the signs/events
leading up to the destruction...which brings us back to the Olivet Discourse. His disciples were of the light/day, so the destruction wouldn't be the first event for them. Messiah lists everything that was to happen before the destruction because that was their question: when will the destruction happen. Otherwise, it is like saying "When you see the destruction of the temple that is when the temple will be destroyed."
and when one sees that "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 [only DESCRIBED here in Lk, not labeled]" are the SAME events [SAME time-period] and acknowledges that Matthew says of them "ALL THESE" are "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS," ...even IF one only includes in this "Matt24:7-8 / Mk13:8 / Lk21:10-11" (only that much of it), verse 12 [Lk21] still says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" i.e. "But BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs having just been spoken of in the preceding verses (at the very least, vv.10-11! but I see all 4 verses--8-11--connect with the Seals, not just vv.10-12, but even if one could make the argument that only vv.10-11 are meant, they parallel Matthew's text!)
This is a bit of a composition fallacy, though, where we're claiming that "because it's true for the one it's true for them all", taking a single witness' testimony. Indeed, it's true for Luke but not true for Matthew and Mark. But there's a linguistic change in Luke that doesn't match the other testimonies.
I think it would help to recite these passages out loud, like actually hearing them spoken instead of just reading them, because we still construct sentences the way they're shared in Luke, with parenthetical statements and jumping ahead in a sequence before backtracking.
Question: You mentioned the seals of Revelation 6. Do you believe seals 1-7 are the same prophesied events as those listed in the Olivet Discourse?