Different Gospels

[Jon777]

The Mosaic Law is still in force today, as the verse from Hebrews states in the present tense when it was written by the men who wrote it, which was not any one of the twelve nor was it Paul, as some out there are prone to claim.

So, the new covenant to come is for us of Israel, not Gentiles.

MM

First, what verse in Hebrews states that the Law is still in effect today. I can't remember reading such a verse in Hebrews. Then see what the scriptures say who is Israel today, God's people.

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16, RSV)

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy." (1Pet 2:9-10, RSV)

The assembly of Jesus Christ, the church today is given the honoring titles used in the OT for God's Old Covenant people, Israel.

 

[Musicmaster]

First, what verse in Hebrews states that the Law is still in effect today. I can't remember reading such a verse in Hebrews. Then see what the scriptures say who is Israel today, God's people.

"But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:14-16, RSV)

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were no people but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy." (1Pet 2:9-10, RSV)

The assembly of Jesus Christ, the church today is given the honoring titles used in the OT for God's Old Covenant people, Israel.

In post #270 of this thread, you quoted Hebrews 8:13, which was written in present tense, not past tense, as if the Law had already been done away. Pay close attention to the tense of the words in the verse:

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It doesn't say the old covenant of Law has passed away, but that it IS ready to vanish away. Do you see that? Decayeth and waxeth are both present tense actions verbs. Given that Hebrews was written some time after the ascension of Christ, and given that the Law had not yet passed away and is declared nowhere else to have vanished away, it must still stand to this day.

Why?

The Law is the force and power of condemnation to those who reject Christ Jesus, and by which they will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Meanwhile, for Israel, the new Covenant of Law the Lord will write in their hearts, that is yet to come.

We of the body of Christ, we are dead to the Law and therefore not under its commands for circumcision or anything else apart from walking by the Spirit, not the letter.

Does that help?

MM

 

[GWH]

No, I wouldn’t describe them as synonyms. That would be overstating the case. But each one has its range of meanings and in certain areas ― notably in Bible translation, the activity we’re concerned with here ― those ranges can sometimes overlap.




“Dispensation” is an altogether different case, I think. Did that term ever gain general acceptance among Bible translators? My impression is that still today, two centuries on from J. N. Darby, it remains restricted to followers of his theological views, who seem to be a pretty small minority even among the Protestant churches, let alone the older churches such as the Catholics and the Orthodox.

Well, the meanings of covenant and testament overlap so much that they are essentially synonymous.

I understand why you think "dispensation" is tainted by Darby, but I think we should clean it rather than discard its meaning of "allocation, allotment, apportionment, or disbursement" of revelation/GW.

 

[lrs68]

If that is what you actually believe, how many witches have you killed in your life? The bible says they exist and that you must kill them. So how many? Exodus 22:18. If you have not killed any then you do not believe in God's Word. etc.

You do understand that Yeshua is the factual Aramaic/Hebrew name for Jesus?

Show me where Jesus instructed such things as you mention during His 3 years ministry?

 

[Jon777]

In post #270 of this thread, you quoted Hebrews 8:13, which was written in present tense, not past tense, as if the Law had already been done away. Pay close attention to the tense of the words in the verse:

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It doesn't say the old covenant of Law has passed away, but that it IS ready to vanish away. Do you see that? Decayeth and waxeth are both present tense actions verbs. Given that Hebrews was written some time after the ascension of Christ, and given that the Law had not yet passed away and is declared nowhere else to have vanished away, it must still stand to this day.

Why?

The Law is the force and power of condemnation to those who reject Christ Jesus, and by which they will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Meanwhile, for Israel, the new Covenant of Law the Lord will write in their hearts, that is yet to come.

We of the body of Christ, we are dead to the Law and therefore not under its commands for circumcision or anything else apart from walking by the Spirit, not the letter.

Does that help?

MM

I left dispensationalism because of such pretensions to deep scholarship, while they are ignoring the historical context. It seems you are reading or watching such apostates. Yet, the Scofield dispensationalism I do not consider apostate, but seriously in error.

“Such preparations having been made, the priests go continually into the first tent to carry out their ritual duties; but only the high priest goes into the second, and he but once a year, and not without taking the blood that he offers for himself and for the sins committed unintentionally by the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary has not yet been disclosed as long as the first tent is still standing. This is a symbol (Gk parable) of the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.” (Heb 9:6-10, NRSV)

The book of Hebrews is thought by scholars as being written mid-60s, when the temple cult still existed, prior to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, just as Jesus prophesied in Matt 24. Then notice the underlined sentence. So, the readers of Hebrews were seeing the empty rituals using the symbols of the Old Covenant, of the temple cult continuing. Christ put an end to that forever in 70 AD when he destroyed the temple as He prophesied as recorded in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

“In speaking of ‘a new covenant,’ he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13, NRSV)

Again, Jesus on the cross has made (past tense) the first covenant, the Law of Moses obsolete. That Old Covenant symbolism “will soon disappear” (future tense) and that it did in 70 AD . What was made obsolete in 33 AD on the cross was soon to disappear, which it did within the lifetime of many who stood at the cross. That happened in 70 AD when Titus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

The fact that the Christ-rejecting Jews continued with their empty rituals at the time Hebrews was written, shows how emphatic and sternly is the warning given to the Jewish Christians as they see the temple cult continuing and may be tempted to turn back to those now meaningless rituals.

“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29, NRSV)

MM, you would do well by leaving this horribly apostate teaching you seem to embrace, and go to the scriptures themselves, using word studies and cross-references to compare scripture to scripture. It is incomprehensible to me that you reject all the scriptures I have posted showing Christ abolished the law on the cross and then embrace such far-fetched arguments you are trying to make from Hebrews.

 

[amazingrace]

The Mosaic Law is still in force today, as the verse from Hebrews states in the present tense when it was written by the men who wrote it, which was not any one of the twelve nor was it Paul, as some out there are prone to claim.

So, the new covenant to come is for us of Israel, not Gentiles.

MM

who is the mediator of the mosaic covenant?

thks

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

I don't see why people just don't stick with what Yeshua said and leave it at that.

I don't see why people just don't stick with what JESUS said and leave it at that.

Were you aware that one can get born again using the Name of Jesus?

One does not gain any favors with the Lord or get to be any closer to Him buy using His Hebrew Name ya know.

If this was important to the the Lord, He would have put that in the New Testament - "and thou shalt callleth Me Yeshua if thou thinkest thou will be allowed'eth into My EL Kingdom'0"

 

[Jon777]

About the Old and the New Covenant, it comes down to what is the church of Jesus Christ that He established in the 1st century, as compared to OT Israel.

Dispensationalism is a corrupted revision of Historic Premillennialism appearing on the scene in the 19th century but only beginning to expand in the 20th century. I reject this perversion of the faith of Jesus Christ that was once for all delivered to the saints in the 1st century. The absence of dispensationalism for 1800 years removes that modern teaching from a biblical theology for me.

The Old Testament's covenant promises to Israel are fulfilled either in Israel's history or in Christ and his church, the church from all nations, not just one. The church is the true covenant people, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles. These promises are presently being fulfilled throughout the present age and will be consummated at Christ's return. After the Second Coming, Scripture does not anticipate a separate future redemptive-historical fulfillment of Israel-specific promises; instead, God's people enter the eternal new creation, which itself is the final realization of the Old Testament's ultimate hopes.

If there were to be a 1000-year personal reign of Christ after the 2nd advent, it will still be a reign of Christ over his church, not some renewed physical Israel with altars and sacrifices, etc. I wonder if I get any "Amens" on this post. LOL

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

If there were to be a 1000-year personal reign of Christ after the 2nd advent, it will still be a reign of Christ over his church, not some renewed physical Israel with altars and sacrifices, etc. I wonder if I get any "Amens" on this post. LOL

Thank you for letting us know you either don't know God's Word or choose to not believe the parts you don't like.

 

[lrs68]

I don't see why people just don't stick with what JESUS said and leave it at that.

Were you aware that one can get born again using the Name of Jesus?

One does not gain any favors with the Lord or get to be any closer to Him buy using His Hebrew Name ya know.

If this was important to the the Lord, He would have put that in the New Testament - "and thou shalt callleth Me Yeshua if thou thinkest thou will be allowed'eth into My EL Kingdom'0"

It's in the original Gospel of Matthew that everyone knows was written in Hebrew. Good to see you are keen to this knowledge...

 

[biblestudent78]

You do understand that Yeshua is the factual Aramaic/Hebrew name for Jesus?

Show me where Jesus instructed such things as you mention during His 3 years ministry?

lrs68
Easy. A rich young ruler came to Jesus asking what he needed to do to be saved. Jesus told the rich young ruler to 1st obey the commandments, 603 in total. Jesus named some of the most well known. The rich young ruler confirmed that he had kept all the commandments from his youth. Jesus told him that there was more. Sell what you have and give it to the poor. As the greatest command in Judaism and Christianity is to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Those are Hebrew Bible commands that applied only to Hebrews long before Jesus came but to Christians today. Thus, it revalues this requirement to Love God and to Love your neighbor as yourself remains central to both Judaism and Christianity.

 

[biblestudent78]

I left dispensationalism because of such pretensions to deep scholarship, while they are ignoring the historical context. It seems you are reading or watching such apostates. Yet, the Scofield dispensationalism I do not consider apostate, but seriously in error.

“Such preparations having been made, the priests go continually into the first tent to carry out their ritual duties; but only the high priest goes into the second, and he but once a year, and not without taking the blood that he offers for himself and for the sins committed unintentionally by the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary has not yet been disclosed as long as the first tent is still standing. This is a symbol (Gk parable) of the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.” (Heb 9:6-10, NRSV)

The book of Hebrews is thought by scholars as being written mid-60s, when the temple cult still existed, prior to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, just as Jesus prophesied in Matt 24. Then notice the underlined sentence. So, the readers of Hebrews were seeing the empty rituals using the symbols of the Old Covenant, of the temple cult continuing. Christ put an end to that forever in 70 AD when he destroyed the temple as He prophesied as recorded in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

“In speaking of ‘a new covenant,’ he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13, NRSV)

Again, Jesus on the cross has made (past tense) the first covenant, the Law of Moses obsolete. That Old Covenant symbolism “will soon disappear” (future tense) and that it did in 70 AD . What was made obsolete in 33 AD on the cross was soon to disappear, which it did within the lifetime of many who stood at the cross. That happened in 70 AD when Titus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

The fact that the Christ-rejecting Jews continued with their empty rituals at the time Hebrews was written, shows how emphatic and sternly is the warning given to the Jewish Christians as they see the temple cult continuing and may be tempted to turn back to those now meaningless rituals.

“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29, NRSV)

MM, you would do well by leaving this horribly apostate teaching you seem to embrace, and go to the scriptures themselves, using word studies and cross-references to compare scripture to scripture. It is incomprehensible to me that you reject all the scriptures I have posted showing Christ abolished the law on the cross and then embrace such far-fetched arguments you are trying to make from Hebrews.

While I agree and understand your perspective. Jesus never said he came to destroy the law, but to fulfill the law. The law contained an architecture on which Jesus built his church. He fulfilled the OT architecture in building his new Kingdom.

 

[Musicmaster]

I left dispensationalism because of such pretensions to deep scholarship, while they are ignoring the historical context. It seems you are reading or watching such apostates. Yet, the Scofield dispensationalism I do not consider apostate, but seriously in error.

“Such preparations having been made, the priests go continually into the first tent to carry out their ritual duties; but only the high priest goes into the second, and he but once a year, and not without taking the blood that he offers for himself and for the sins committed unintentionally by the people. By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the sanctuary has not yet been disclosed as long as the first tent is still standing. This is a symbol (Gk parable) of the present time, during which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms, regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.” (Heb 9:6-10, NRSV)

The book of Hebrews is thought by scholars as being written mid-60s, when the temple cult still existed, prior to 70 AD when the temple was destroyed, just as Jesus prophesied in Matt 24. Then notice the underlined sentence. So, the readers of Hebrews were seeing the empty rituals using the symbols of the Old Covenant, of the temple cult continuing. Christ put an end to that forever in 70 AD when he destroyed the temple as He prophesied as recorded in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

“In speaking of ‘a new covenant,’ he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13, NRSV)

Again, Jesus on the cross has made (past tense) the first covenant, the Law of Moses obsolete. That Old Covenant symbolism “will soon disappear” (future tense) and that it did in 70 AD . What was made obsolete in 33 AD on the cross was soon to disappear, which it did within the lifetime of many who stood at the cross. That happened in 70 AD when Titus destroyed the temple and Jerusalem.

The fact that the Christ-rejecting Jews continued with their empty rituals at the time Hebrews was written, shows how emphatic and sternly is the warning given to the Jewish Christians as they see the temple cult continuing and may be tempted to turn back to those now meaningless rituals.

“How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Heb 10:29, NRSV)

MM, you would do well by leaving this horribly apostate teaching you seem to embrace, and go to the scriptures themselves, using word studies and cross-references to compare scripture to scripture. It is incomprehensible to me that you reject all the scriptures I have posted showing Christ abolished the law on the cross and then embrace such far-fetched arguments you are trying to make from Hebrews.

Matthew 24...70 AD? No. I don't think so. I do understand your confusion given your eschatological errors. But I do thank you for the encouragement to study more. I have to in order to teach.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

who is the mediator of the mosaic covenant?

thks

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

So, given that Jesus was speaking of what you Gentiles call the "old testament," that also included Torah.

MM

 

[biblestudent78]

Matthew 24...70 AD? No. I don't think so. I do understand your confusion given your eschatological errors. But I do thank you for the encouragement to study more. I have to in order to teach.

MM

Why not start with Matthew 25....the entire chapter. I am sure your "students" will be thrilled to know it does not apply to them.

 

[Musicmaster]

Why not start with Matthew 25....the entire chapter. I am sure your "students" will be thrilled to know it does not apply to them.

Good point, and fortunately that too doesn't apply to us who are of the body of Christ as it applies only to those who survive to the end of the tribulation...except in the beliefs of Preterists and others with odd beliefs.

MM

 

[biblestudent78]

Matthew 24...70 AD? No. I don't think so. I do understand your confusion given your eschatological errors. But I do thank you for the encouragement to study more. I have to in order to teach.

MM

Matthew 24 says that in their lives they will see the Son of Man returning with power.
"Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 1But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." To "all the world"? So, buy not preaching the kingdom to the world we are preventing Jesus from coming? In Jesus time the population of the "world" was around 250 million. Today it is over 8 billion. That means when Jesus said once the word had been preached the the world which was .03125% of today's world. So, teacher tell us when He will come back and under what circumstance?

 

[biblestudent78]

Good point, and fortunately that too doesn't apply to us who are of the body of Christ as it applies only to those who survive to the end of the tribulation...except in the beliefs of Preterists and others with odd beliefs.

MM

Good job. You can now count yourself among the millions of 21st Century Christians that believe the New Testament does not apply to them. Spend 60 seconds. Get "saved," and continue on just like every heathen that ever lived. Beautiful! Jesus shed his blood on the cross to relieve all his followers from actually following him. We have a gold card ticket to heaven. So let's live it up. No change required and if you live by the very words of the vulgar, fat Roman Catholic monk Martin Luter, then anything you do in an attempt to follow the example of Jesus life is going to condemn you to hell. Coolest, sweetest deal of the universe. Be a "believing" person but a living heathen and Heaven is your guarantee. The "Gospel" according to 21st Century Christianity.

 

[Musicmaster]

Matthew 24 says that in their lives they will see the Son of Man returning with power.

Which did not happen, and for good reason.

"Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.

Yes, indeed.

1But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

There's a reason for that as well, regardless of beliefs out there that this applies to us today, which it doesn't.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." To "all the world"? So, buy not preaching the kingdom to the world we are preventing Jesus from coming? In Jesus time the population of the "world" was around 250 million. Today it is over 8 billion. That means when Jesus said once the word had been preached the the world which was .03125% of today's world. So, teacher tell us when He will come back and under what circumstance?

He will come back after the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. It's not based upon some political, economic or cultural trigger, but rather the fullness of Gentiles be come in. Prophecy buffs are an interesting people who come up with all kinds of trigger points at which they point, but they do so by not rightly dividing the word of truth.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Good job. You can now count yourself among the millions of 21st Century Christians that believe the New Testament does not apply to them. Spend 60 seconds. Get "saved," and continue on just like every heathen that ever lived. Beautiful!

Who teaches such? Are you assuming that about me personally? Are you assuming that upon me on the basis of some unmerited beliefs about other people's beliefs? You don't know me, so how can you know I stand for such?

Jesus shed his blood on the cross to relieve all his followers from actually following him. We have a gold card ticket to heaven. So let's live it up. No change required and if you live by the very words of the vulgar, fat Roman Catholic monk Martin Luter, then anything you do in an attempt to follow the example of Jesus life is going to condemn you to hell. Coolest, sweetest deal of the universe. Be a "believing" person but a living heathen and Heaven is your guarantee. The "Gospel" according to 21st Century Christianity.

Again, I have no idea of whom you're talking about because that's not representative of my beliefs.

You seem bitter and filled with gall and hatred. What are you saying? I have no regard for Luther nor for Protestantism. As a biblicist, I have no regard for any denomination of men. It's the word of God or its nothing.

MM