Do you believe in Cessationism or Continuationism? (poll)

[RickyZ]

It may surprise to learn that I do believe that God does answer our prayers and on occasion, this does involve the miraculous ... His divine intervention

I think most Christians believe in God performing miracles. It's just that too many of them don't believe that they can take part in it - or that God actually calls us to. See, God never wanted to rule over His creation, he wanted mankind to do that. That's why God gave Adam authority over it. That's why God gives us that same authority, via the gifts of the Spirit.

The problem that I have seen over and over with the charismatic/pentecostal and Word Faith movements, is that too many people are drawn to the miracles, the signs and wonders, instead of being drawn to Jesus. Too many have this fascination with the "miraculous" instead of the miracle working God. I have just seen this over and over. It is a sign of spiritual immaturity, for sure, but if the emphasis is on gifts and signs and wonders, then people forget to look to God, to worship him and to get to know him better.

Let's face it, even in the Bible many were attracted to the signs and wonders, but not to Christ. In fact, the twelve disciples did not see any amazing miracles, Jesus just called them to come, and they came.

We all need to work on listening to God, and certainly to studying his Word, where we will learn how to be disciples, which no miracle in the world could teach us. And to come and obey and especially take up our cross daily and follow him!

And this too is a slippery slope. God uses someone to perform a miracle and all of a sudden they think they're a miracle worker. Nope, sorry, God is the miracle worker. We are but a conduit (if we make ourselves available). The glory has to go all the way up to God. If we make it stop with ourselves, then we ourselves are being false to Him.

 

[wincam]

We may here well ask can or does the devil work miracles or false signs and wonders like the man cured of his withered right arm went home and strangled his wife - lest we forget let us remember and recall exactly what was the reason or purpose for Pentecost - wincam

 

[ladylynn]

The problem that I have seen over and over with the charismatic/pentecostal and Word Faith movements, is that too many people are drawn to the miracles, the signs and wonders, instead of being drawn to Jesus. Too many have this fascination with the "miraculous" instead of the miracle working God. I have just seen this over and over. It is a sign of spiritual immaturity, for sure, but if the emphasis is on gifts and signs and wonders, then people forget to look to God, to worship him and to get to know him better.

Let's face it, even in the Bible many were attracted to the signs and wonders, but not to Christ. In fact, the twelve disciples did not see any amazing miracles, Jesus just called them to come, and they came.

We all need to work on listening to God, and certainly to studying his Word, where we will learn how to be disciples, which no miracle in the world could teach us. And to come and obey and especially take up our cross daily and follow him!

Hey Angela., I've thought about this for some time now and observed there are lots of Christians like that in both camps. Going by emotion and not the Spirit's leading in the truth. The lines will get blurred when we are self centered. I don't mean in the horrid sense of the word where a person takes from the poor and needy and who always has to have the best seat in the house as well as the biggest piece of cake. Actually they are often sacrificial and do not want the best seat in the house or the biggest piece of cake.

These can be the Christians who are turned by every wind of doctrine so they can find the hype and adrenaline rush because that is their personality or their way of meeting a need they have humanly speaking. It is how they have set up their carefully set rows of reasoning to get by in life., how they have managed to actually stay in the flesh but believe they are walking in the Spirit.

It can also be from those Christians who are set in their ways to not allow any new revelation because it may upset the carefully planned rows that they have set up in life that cause a sense of balance in a world of senselessness and imbalance. They too have managed to actually stay in the flesh but believe they are walking in the Spirit.

I've discovered from being in the 2nd camp most of my life that daring to believe the miraculous was very difficult to near impossible for me. And as I've observed different kinds of Christians from the way out emotional ones to the stoic and unmovable ones, both are in need of adjustments. Because both are leaning to their own understanding even when they think they are not.

I've noticed both kinds of believers can be easily angered., mean., careless. Given to times of frustration and annoyance. Lacking love as well as the other fruits of the Spirit. I've discovered by observation of myself and others that people will always have their own way of thinking and need to learn how to re-think. When the Holy Spirit has to do with believers, they will show those fruits regardless of their doctrinal leanings. They will be Jesus centered and Bible teachable.

 

[ladylynn]

I'm actually surprised by the poll results. I didn't realize CC members were so open to the gifts of the Spirit (about 78%, out of who participated). Some users surprised me as well, with their decision. Thats one thing that boggled my mind in the past, that a revelation of grace doesn't necessarily mean a revelation of power.

There are people with the grace revelation who are closed off to the gifts, and then there are people operating in the gifts who are closed off to God's grace (in terms of doctrine). I find that peculiar and I was somewhat dumbfounded in the past. How could someone with a revelation of God's love, through Jesus by grace, not also grasp the love behind the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Him providing gifts in order to edify and exhort others. I really didn't think such beliefs could be separated, to be honest when I first witnessed it. "A grace believer as a cessationist!? Say what?" haha

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Depleted]

How did Jesus reach out to unbelievers and perform the work of spreading the gospel? (And was there actually a gospel prior to His death and resurrection?) By showing mankind that as the Messiah, the one chosen to set right all that was lost in man's fall, He has the power and authority to over rule all that was lost in the fall... including our health and mortality.

I'm sorry you don't feel that Christ in you can do the same things He did before you.

There's been a gospel since God told Adam and Eve that one will come to crush the serpent's head. The whole book is the gospel. Jesus is coming. Jesus came. God wins. The only difference between OT and NT is in OT they didn't know his name.

And he does hold all the power -- whether we choose to take a ship away from Nineveh or towards it.

This is why I don't get where you think this is slippery slopes. God's not slipping, nor is he letting any of his peeps slip... at least off the cliff to death.

 

[Depleted]

We may here well ask can or does the devil work miracles or false signs and wonders like the man cured of his withered right arm went home and strangled his wife - lest we forget let us remember and recall exactly what was the reason or purpose for Pentecost - wincam

I suspect you're the only one asking that. The rest of us are trying to focus on God, not demons, and reality, not fiction.

 

[keepitsimple]

My question would be - How could someone who is a cessationist receive ANY revelation? Considering "knowledge" (word of knowledge, one of the manifestations of the Spirit) has supposedly ended along with tongues and prophecy?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you do not know what that verse actually means.

The disciples and apostles were for the most part very simple men. Paul was the exception having an extensive education provided by the Jews and Romans.

The knowledge they possessed was far in excess of their educational capacity. They refuted the religious doctors of the day having never gone their schools.

Knowledge today is quite different in that most people are educated and can study Gods word. The Holy Spirit still gives insight into the word of God but it comes through study not gifting as some would have us to believe.

There is no new revelation. Gods word the that which is perfect is complete. Perfect means complete in the context of the verse.

There are many others here who maliciously perpetuate the misinterpretation of the verse to continue in their private interpretation of this scripture so as not to interfere with the predetermined doctrine they wish to follow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I did say some. If I thought I was the only one learning, I would have said that.

As for people thinking there are apostles today? There are people who think that. I disagree, but that doesn't give me room to use the line that my benefit of a doubt is the person knows nothing. That's not benefit of a doubt. That IS arrogance.

I don't read it being as blatant as you're making it out be. I too think PB's understanding is in error. I lean towards Roger meaning to say that he didn't believe PB was trying to be intentionally malicious or crude. And I believe that as well. PB is a very likeable woman. That being said, the answer being that our revelation today comes from God's written Word should be pretty straightforward. And herein lies the danger Lynn. Who or what do those who claim to receive words of knowledge today rely on and trust more ? God's written Word ... or what they believe they were given ? And I know ... many will rush with the answer that their word of knowledge always lines up with God's Word. When we didn't have God's written Word (NT) is when it was necessary and used of God. A quick google search or scour of youtube will easily show where and what this error in understanding has led to. And it isn't pretty.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Depleted]

I don't read it being as blatant as you're making it out be. I too think PB's understanding is in error. I lean towards Roger meaning to say that he didn't believe PB was trying to be intentionally malicious or crude. And I believe that as well. PB is a very likeable woman. That being said, the answer being that our revelation today comes from God's written Word should be pretty straightforward. And herein lies the danger Lynn. Who or what do those who claim to receive words of knowledge today rely on and trust more ? God's written Word ... or what they believe they were given ? And I know ... many will rush with the answer that their word of knowledge always lines up with God's Word. When we didn't have God's written Word (NT) is when it was necessary and used of God. A quick google search or scour of youtube will easily show where and what this error in understanding has led to. And it isn't pretty.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Okay?! (confused.)

As mentioned, my denomination is cessationists. PB seems to think they (cessationists -- and why can't we ever use easier to spell words) can't get "ANY revelation."

A. That was covered previously in this thread.

B. If she has trouble wrapping her head around it or simply didn't read the thread, it simply doesn't bother me. This AIN'T dire!

God reveals because God reveals. His choice, his way, sooner or later he gets us where he wanted us to be. And no matter if it's sooner or later, he gets us there right on time!

And YET, NUTM keeps thinking he alone gets everything right in the Bible and is here to educated all us dumb hicks!

I'd tell how cessationists handle God's word of knowledge... except I already did tell.

I really am in the middle of this debate, (which wasn't supposed to be a debate, just info gathering, and has become more of simply getting everyone else to agree with whatever position whoever has at this particular moment than a debate anyway) but I lean closer to cessationists. (Probably for the same reason you have your position -- because it gets overly abused, no less.) But because I have seen words of knowledge (and, excuse me, but in my denomination you can tell that's what they are because they really do line up with the whole of the Bible vs. some off-the-word "prophecy" about dolphins in the ocean playing signaling someone not to go 1500 miles away because some Jimmy-Jones-like schmuck wants you to when the answer to that one was easy enough to find in God's word) used effectively, I have seen miracles, I absolutely know hubby doesn't lie to me, so even if I don't understand tongues at all doesn't mean tongues aren't real, and I've even seen the gift of prophecy used well, so I found this particular thread interesting specifically because of how many POV's there are, how many people found out other POV's aren't what they expected, and, until halfway through it, no one had a particular need to prosthelytize their opinions as if that were God's word.

What bothers me, (and absolutely no one is bothering to take my question seriously or to answer it, so I may never know why), is suddenly, everyone has to agree on exactly what to believe or we're heading over a really steep cliff like the old wives-tale about lemmings!

Wasn't this started by Ben to figure out who believes what? What is the big deal with this particular God's-going-to-get-us-to-his-way-of-thinking-on-this-eventually minor point that makes people go off the deep end and suddenly everyone has to agree exactly alike? To me this is more like what's the best color - blue or red?

Of all the things in the Bible -- a book about God -- exactly what is it about what gifts God gives us is so direly important that suddenly the gifts aren't any good unless everyone sees it exactly the same? God's gifts! Gifts! Not will! He has gifted us to share with others, and yet this turned into
[video=youtube;p-3e0EkvIEM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-3e0EkvIEM[/video]

You told what we're supposed to do, but missed the prologue -- the reason -- for why!
2 Tim. 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Because we have salvation through faith in Jesus. He's the center, not us getting the goodies.

 

[AllenW]

I don't read it being as blatant as you're making it out be. I too think PB's understanding is in error. I lean towards Roger meaning to say that he didn't believe PB was trying to be intentionally malicious or crude. And I believe that as well. PB is a very likeable woman. That being said, the answer being that our revelation today comes from God's written Word should be pretty straightforward. And herein lies the danger Lynn. Who or what do those who claim to receive words of knowledge today rely on and trust more ? God's written Word ... or what they believe they were given ? And I know ... many will rush with the answer that their word of knowledge always lines up with God's Word. When we didn't have God's written Word (NT) is when it was necessary and used of God. A quick google search or scour of youtube will easily show where and what this error in understanding has led to. And it isn't pretty.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I just had a funny thought.
You just listed 3 people and their responses, then your own response followed by Scripture.
And your user name is keepitsimple.

 

[keepitsimple]

Of all the things in the Bible -- a book about God -- exactly what is it about what gifts God gives us is so direly important that suddenly the gifts aren't any good unless everyone sees it exactly the same? God's gifts! Gifts! Not will! He has gifted us to share with others, and yet this turned into ...

I just felt like arguing with somebody . I'm not zeroing in on you Lynn. I already knew your heart and I've always liked what I've seen. I'll only say that God's gifts to us do matter. I think they matter very much. A lost and searching world watches and observes what those who love the Lord are doing with and in their lives. And our behaviour and actions is the only the witness for Christ that many of them ever get to see. Truth is, I'm probably more passionate about this then is healthy for me. And I've probably already said too much on this thread.

 

[wincam]

I consider myself a cessationist, but that's because I believe the work of the Holy Spirit is different from what it was during the time of the Apostles.

I agree that the spiritual gifts are still active, but they are not as frequent or as pronounced as they were during apostolic times.

God still heals, still gives the gift of speaking in tongues and the interpretations thereof.

I'm not Pentecostal or Charismatic, but at the same time, I don't believe that the spiritual gifts have stopped altogether.

Pentecost imho was a one off affair of momentous significance - except in the case of Paul at Damascus as stated in Galatians - this is not available to all and sundry as and when required - see Jn.14:17 - wincam

 

[MadebyHim]

Some people have seen these gifts happening, some people have not. Most people want to see something before they believe it. i have never seen eyes of blind being open, other than on tv, never seen buckets of money pouring from the sky. But if someone tells me they have, who am i to say they didn't? i have seen plenty of miracles, just not things like people raised from dead. Maybe Father just has to give more proof to some than others. It doesn't seem loving father for what He can do, instead of who He is is scary.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I am a continuationist but:

1. I think most charismatics are fake, ignorant, self-deceived, mentally or emotionally ill, or lying, and lack credibility.
2. I don't think most "tongues-speakers" really exercise the biblical gift of tongues.
3. I don't think there's any Scriptural guarantee that all legitimate gifts and offices are guaranteed to be in existence at all times.
4. I believe most "continuationists" are extremely susceptible to being deceived.
5. I totally deny the position that all mature Christians speak in tongues, and consider those who claim this to be cultic.
6. I believe many charismatics are, in essence, flaunting their alleged giftings in order to impress others with their spirituality.

So, it depends on how you define "continuationism".

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

It seems to me like continuationists need to clean up their house, before they expect us to take them seriously.

A good video on false prophets, in the context of Corona virus.

Justin Peters looks at their false claims. He explains their deceptiveness in uttering prophecies, claiming to speak for God when it is basically expressing the thoughts of their vain imaginations.

 

[Dino246]

It seems to me like continuationists need to clean up their house, before they expect us to take them seriously.

A good video on false prophets, in the context of Corona virus.

Justin Peters looks at their false claims. He explains their deceptiveness in uttering prophecies, claiming to speak for God when it is basically expressing the thoughts of their vain imaginations.

Since you consider it acceptable practice to pollute the forum with muliple posts of the same material, I will be reporting you.

 

[Runningman]

It seems to me like continuationists need to clean up their house, before they expect us to take them seriously.

Casting doubt on continuationists as being deceived or corrupt actually goes a long way to pull the carpet out from under your own feet if you yourself are a professing Christian. When non-Christians see you trying to debunk your own brethren they won't see any reason to take you seriously either. It actually does damage to the Christian brand and misrepresents who we are supposed to be, in my estimation. A house divided against itself cannot stand and those who perform a miracle in Jesus' name will never turn and say something bad about Him.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am a continuationist but:

1. I think most charismatics are fake, ignorant, self-deceived, mentally or emotionally ill, or lying, and lack credibility.
2. I don't think most "tongues-speakers" really exercise the biblical gift of tongues.
3. I don't think there's any Scriptural guarantee that all legitimate gifts and offices are guaranteed to be in existence at all times.
4. I believe most "continuationists" are extremely susceptible to being deceived.
5. I totally deny the position that all mature Christians speak in tongues, and consider those who claim this to be cultic.
6. I believe many charismatics are, in essence, flaunting their alleged giftings in order to impress others with their spirituality.

So, it depends on how you define "continuationism".

Based on these two comments alone, why is this poster still here on CC?!!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Based on these two comments alone, why is this poster still here on CC?!!

I simply responded to the question.

Are honest men not allowed here?

It's exactly what I think.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Casting doubt on continuationists as being deceived or corrupt actually goes a long way to pull the carpet out from under your own feet if you yourself are a professing Christian. When non-Christians see you trying to debunk your own brethren they won't see any reason to take you seriously either. It actually does damage to the Christian brand and misrepresents who we are supposed to be, in my estimation. A house divided against itself cannot stand and those who perform a miracle in Jesus' name will never turn and say something bad about Him.

Actually, you're wrong.

I used to do jail ministry, and the main chaplain was a charismatic type.

He told the men that they needed to be exorcised from their generational sins, etcetera. He claimed, in essence, that God found it very difficult, if not impossible, to save men who were trapped in homosexual sin. He told them they must read the KJV and that other Bibles were incorrect, etcetera.

They would ask my opinion on these claims. I asked them never to tell me who told them these things, but I knew who it was because he said the same things to me.

To be honest, the prisoners were glad to see that there was some sane person who did not believe all these weird things. So, it didn't turn them away from Christianity. In fact, they would have been turned away from attendance at jail services because they wouldn't be learning anything of value from guys who believed such superstitious foolishness.

It is very true that there is a spiritual realm, and spiritual forces are at work, but claiming that sinners need to be exorcised rather than to repent is false. It gives them an opportunity to deny their sinfulness, and to evade the real problem: themselves.

And, if it was just one isolated person, I would think......I may be wrong..and I won't judge an entire group of people for the foolishness of one man, or even a handful of men....but when I see general foolishness in the entire group, then I am forced to consider whether there are sound thinkers within the entire movement.

 

[kaylagrl]

I simply responded to the question.

Are honest men not allowed here?

It's exactly what I think.

For someone who calls themselves "united with Christ" you must be one of the least self aware people walking. Nothing in your dogma, your attitude or your posts shows a person united with Christ. Here's your comment...

" charismatics are fake, ignorant, self-deceived, mentally or emotionally ill, or lying, and lack credibility. "

Does this seem in any way,shape or form to be Christlike? Not only are you making a blanket statement, you're being judgemental, you are judging people that you do not even know personally. Mentally ill? Are you a psychiatrist? Who are you to judge peoples hearts?! Who died and made you God?! You are not an "honest man", if you were you wouldn't post the utter foolishness that you do. I hope to see you banned. You bring nothing but hate and division, attacking other brothers and sisters in Christ. Nobody cares what you think, you're hatred falls out of your mouth every time you open it. We've heard enough of what you think, and it stinks to high heaven.